Crèche refusal to return deposit

Dutchie_in_DUB

Hi,

I am looking for some sound advice on the issue of a crèche refusing to return a paid deposit after deciding to choose for alternative childminding facilities.

As I would like to provide exact info, please bare with me on the multiple facts and dates.
- January 2013 first visit to crèche: shown around/given info folder
- May 2013 second visit to crèche:
paid deposit of two weeks and set the date to start in September 2013
- July 2013 rang the crèche:
changed starting date to 6th of December 2013 re extended maternity leave
- 22nd of October 2013 third visit to crèche:
two days after this decided to go with alternative services
Fyi Cancellation period is 6 weeks (as per contract)

When advising the crèche I spoke to the manager. She advised me (after talking to her regional manager) that they could not return the deposit for following reasons:
- I did not lose my job or there was no illness involved (not in the contract)
- they changed the starting date previously for me and kept the spot free
- they never returned deposits over the last year
I advised the manager then I would seek legal advice and take this further. At which she then said she would again speak with her regional manager. I also sent an email then to cancel in writing and ensure I would be answered by email to have it in black and white.
Two days later she replied and advised that they can return half of the deposit and if I could provide my bank details ASAP.

I am now wondering if anyone can advise me on the back of all my details given - should I go with their offer or take them to the small claims court?

Thank you in advance!

Bepolite

Please correct the following summary of the above: Paid deposit to keep open a place, changed date, then wanted money back.

What am I missing here? You paid a deposit to keep open a place and then didn't take the place. You will probably find some recourse through the unfair contract terms regs, but frankly if I'm picking this up correctly the crèche is in the right here.

Coles

They weren't obliged to return any of the deposit. Can you explain why you think they were?

If you can't understand that your actions have caused the business to incur a loss then I would advise you not to go near the Small Claims Court.

Chattastrophe!

What exactly does it say in the contract about the six-week cancellation period you mentioned?

Dutchie_in_DUB

Isn't a deposit normally returned if you cancel within the required period. Which was in this case 6weeks before the starting date?
Apologies for not understanding this, I have no legal background. Hence posting here.

Bepolite

Dutchie_in_DUB wrote: »

Isn't a deposit normally returned if you cancel within the required period. Which was in this case 6weeks before the starting date?
Apologies for not understanding this, I have no legal background. Hence posting here.

A legal background isn't required to be fair.

When you initially moved the date was this within the six week time scale as per the contract?

Dutchie_in_DUB

Bepolite wrote: »

A legal background isn't required to be fair.

When you initially moved the date was this within the six week time scale as per the contract?

Yes it was - advised in July to change the September date.

Dutchie_in_DUB

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

What exactly does it say in the contract about the six-week cancellation period you mentioned?

Thank you, I will dig out those papers and get back to you with exact wording.

Chattastrophe!

Coles wrote: »

They weren't obliged to return any of the deposit. Can you explain why you think they were?

If you can't understand that your actions have caused the business to incur a loss then I would advise you not to go near the Small Claims Court.

I very much doubt they're incurring a loss, though. They have plenty of time to fill that space before December. It seems very greedy of them to withhold the deposit, apart from perhaps a small nominal fee for inconvenience - certainly not all/half of the deposit!

Bepolite

Dutchie_in_DUB wrote: »

Yes it was - advised in July to change the September date.

In that case then you might be able to make the argument you canceled, re-booked and canceled again. Not a great way to do business, but to be fair they wrote the contract.

The cost of the SmCC would be €25 with probably around €10-15 for enforcement (you'll probably have to engage the sheriff). You'll get back the sheriff's fee if he is successful at getting the money.

dearg lady

In general deposits are non refundable if you just change your mind. I would've thought the 6 weeks cancellation is if you're already using the creche and then need to cancel, however it really depends on the wording, as others have said

Coles

Why did you pay the deposit? What purpose did you think it served?

I would imagine that the creche could quite successfully argue that your reserved commencement date was at the start of September and the fact that they were prepared to maintain that reservation until December without charge has no bearing on the deposit.

Rick Rod

Dutchie_in_DUB wrote: »

Hi,

I am looking for some sound advice on the issue of a crèche refusing to return a paid deposit after deciding to choose for alternative childminding facilities.

As I would like to provide exact info, please bare with me on the multiple facts and dates.
- January 2013 first visit to crèche: shown around/given info folder
- May 2013 second visit to crèche:
paid deposit of two weeks and set the date to start in September 2013
- July 2013 rang the crèche:
changed starting date to 6th of December 2013 re extended maternity leave
- 22nd of October 2013 third visit to crèche:
two days after this decided to go with alternative services
Fyi Cancellation period is 6 weeks (as per contract)

When advising the crèche I spoke to the manager. She advised me (after talking to her regional manager) that they could not return the deposit for following reasons:
- I did not lose my job or there was no illness involved (not in the contract)
- they changed the starting date previously for me and kept the spot free
- they never returned deposits over the last year
I advised the manager then I would seek legal advice and take this further. At which she then said she would again speak with her regional manager. I also sent an email then to cancel in writing and ensure I would be answered by email to have it in black and white.
Two days later she replied and advised that they can return half of the deposit and if I could provide my bank details ASAP.

I am now wondering if anyone can advise me on the back of all my details given - should I go with their offer or take them to the small claims court?

Thank you in advance!

Do you understand what the term "DEPOSIT" even means?

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

foggy_lad

Bepolite wrote: »

In that case then you might be able to make the argument you canceled, re-booked and canceled again. Not a great way to do business, but to be fair they wrote the contract.

The cost of the SmCC would be €25 with probably around €10-15 for enforcement (you'll probably have to engage the sheriff). You'll get back the sheriff's fee if he is successful at getting the money.

You being closer to the courts than most others might be able to dig out the actual figures for the sheriff having to act on small claims judgements but I would think that most people that use the small claims court don't require the services of the sheriff to get their money or goods back, but the op is dealing with a company here and not the woman living around the corner who opened a crèche and minds a few children. They will be like many other companies at the moment and will do anything to avoid paying out money.

Bepolite

I wouldn't be able to give you figures, but where the other party doesn't engage with the proceedings (a large proportion from what I can gather) I suspect enforcement proceedings* are needed.

The other scenario is once the paperwork arrives with the defendant party they simply process a refund and head off the SmCC at that stage.

As for being closer to the courts, perhaps geographically but in no other sense! :pac:

*fancy way of saying go into the sheriff's office, pay a small sum and get him to knock on the door.

foggy_lad

Bepolite wrote: »

I wouldn't be able to give you figures, but where the other party doesn't engage with the proceedings (a large proportion from what I can gather) I suspect enforcement proceedings* are needed.

The other scenario is once the paperwork arrives with the defendant party they simply process a refund and head off the SmCC at that stage.

As for being closer to the courts, perhaps geographically but in no other sense! :pac:

*fancy way of saying go into the sheriff's office, pay a small sum and get him to knock on the door.

You implied that taking a case in the small claims court will usually entail needing the services of the local sheriff which is not the case, this is just scaremongering. Most parties do engage with the small claims court or as you state now just wait for the papers to arrive then process the refund.

Op you should write to the crèche outlining your issue and highlight that the contract mentions repayment of deposits under certain conditions which it would appear you have met. If they don't respond within a week then proceed to the small claims court stage.

Bepolite

foggy_lad wrote: »

You implied that taking a case in the small claims court will usually entail needing the services of the local sheriff which is not the case, this is just scaremongering. Most parties do engage with the small claims court or as you state now just wait for the papers to arrive then process the refund.

Op you should write to the crèche outlining your issue and highlight that the contract mentions repayment of deposits under certain conditions which it would appear you have met. If they don't respond within a week then proceed to the small claims court stage.

Foggy - in your own post you say that companies do anything to hang on to their money. It's not scare mongering to suggest you may have to walk into an office, hand over a piece of paper and pay €11.40.

If a party refund the money before going to SmCC, that's not engaging with the SmCC. Many businesses then either ignore the summons through incompetence or hoping it will go away. I can tell you this because if everyone engaged with the system it would grind to a halt in a similar fashion to what would happen in the CCJ if 90% of people didn't plead guilty.

If the company ignores the summons (for what ever reason) they are highly unlikely to then engage with a demand for payment. You shouldn't need statistics this is clear common sense. Having engaged the sheriff on two separate occasions for people through FLAC I can assure you there's nothing to be scared about.

Dutchie_in_DUB

Coles wrote: »

Why did you pay the deposit? What purpose did you think it served?

I would imagine that the creche could quite successfully argue that your reserved commencement date was at the start of September and the fact that they were prepared to maintain that reservation until December without charge has no bearing on the deposit.

I was requested to pay the deposit (as is asked in any crèche) to hold the spot. This deposit would be taken off the monthly fee when my lo would start but returned if we changed our mind.

Dutchie_in_DUB

Melendez wrote: »

You obviously don't. Not all deposits are non-refundable in every circumstance.

It is standard practice in Creches to leave a deposit as a sign of commitmentment which is refundable if a sufficient period of notice is given prior to using the service. This "sufficient period" is so the creche can either refill the held place or sort out the required staff ratios with minimal effort on their part. In this case the creche have determined that 6 weeks is sufficient and have put that in the contract.

This is what I thought. Will dig out the papers for the exact wording. Thank you.

Rick Rod

Melendez wrote: »

You obviously don't. Not all deposits are non-refundable in every circumstance.

It is standard practice in Creches to leave a deposit as a sign of commitmentment which is refundable if a sufficient period of notice is given prior to using the service. This "sufficient period" is so the creche can either refill the held place or sort out the required staff ratios with minimal effort on their part. In this case the creche have determined that 6 weeks is sufficient and have put that in the contract.

The 6 week notice period wasnt available to the crèche given the messing about with the start dates

Dutchie_in_DUB

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

What exactly does it say in the contract about the six-week cancellation period you mentioned?

No contract. But this is what it says in the book they gave us "if a place has been reserved with a deposit, six weeks notice is required for cancellation refund."

Dutchie_in_DUB

Dutchie_in_DUB wrote: »

This is what I thought. Will dig out the papers for the exact wording. Thank you


No contract. But this is what it says in the book they gave us "if a place has been reserved with a deposit, six weeks notice is required for cancellation refund."

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

As a complete outsider in the matter of creches, it does appear that you did not give 6 weeks notice as the deposit was paid based on the September start date. Personally, I would expect to be down the deposit in a situation like this. They probably refused another child in September on your promise of your child starting with them.

green123

there is no point in a business taking a deposit if the deposit is going to be returned.

it would be a waste of time for a business to take a deposit if the customer can just change their mind and get the deposit back.

why would a business take a deposit ? what good is a deposit to a business if the deposit was so easy to get back ?

a deposit is taken to hold the customer to a deal.

davo10

OP agrees a start date, pays a deposit knowing that six week notice required of cancellation to get refund, creshe holds place, OP decides not to start in September so pushes start date back more than six weeks and then asks for refund, all the time creshe is down one child after agreeing since September to keep a place for child. OP then expects refund, what am I missing here?.

If creshe refunds deposit, in future all parents could just phone up a few days before child was due to start, ask to delay start date by six weeks, and them when creshe agrees, ask for money back as it is now six weeks to new start date. No refund for me OP, you changed your mind and messed the creshe about, they are out of pocket because of you.

Rick Rod

davo10 wrote: »

OP agrees a start date, pays a deposit knowing that six week notice required of cancellation to get refund, creshe holds place, OP decides not to start in September so pushes start date back more than six weeks and then asks for refund, all the time creshe is down one child after agreeing since September to keep a place for child. OP then expects refund, what am I missing here?.

If creshe refunds deposit, in future all parents could just phone up a few days before child was due to start, ask to delay start date by six weeks, and them when creshe agrees, ask for money back as it is now six weeks to new start date. No refund for me OP, you changed your mind and messed the creshe about, they are out of pocket because of you.

Exactly. This is the point

Chattastrophe!

davo10 wrote: »

OP agrees a start date, pays a deposit knowing that six week notice required of cancellation to get refund, creshe holds place, OP decides not to start in September so pushes start date back more than six weeks and then asks for refund, all the time creshe is down one child after agreeing since September to keep a place for child. OP then expects refund, what am I missing here?.

If creshe refunds deposit, in future all parents could just phone up a few days before child was due to start, ask to delay start date by six weeks, and them when creshe agrees, ask for money back as it is now six weeks to new start date. No refund for me OP, you changed your mind and messed the creshe about, they are out of pocket because of you.

No, she changed the September start date in July. More than six weeks notice, as per the agreement, and plenty of time for them to find another child to take that place.

It's not like the creche would've had an empty space as a result between September and now. I sincerely doubt that they are out of pocket at all over the whole thing.

Rick Rod

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

No, she changed the September start date in July. More than six weeks notice, as per the agreement, and plenty of time for them to find another child to take that place.

It's not like the creche would've had an empty space as a result between September and now. I sincerely doubt that they are out of pocket at all over the whole thing.

It doesn't matter. It's a deposit. It serves a purpose

Chattastrophe!

Rick Rod wrote: »

It doesn't matter. It's a deposit. It serves a purpose

Yes - and I'd understand them withholding the deposit IF she'd cancelled less than six weeks prior to the start date and IF this was clearly stated in the signed agreement. This does not appear to be the case.

My interpretation (based on the information given) is that the purpose of the deposit in this case is for the creche to protect themselves in cases where the parent cancels with LESS than six weeks notice. This is not what happened here.

iverjohnston

If a Creche has limited space, the 6 weeks notice for a cancellation should have resulted in the deposit being returned on that date, in middle of July. Pushing back the child's entry date to December means a 3month loss to the Creche. OP states that crèche had time to fill the Sept-Dec slot with another child, but what happens when the original poster turns up at the door in December with child in tow? Will the other child who took up the place in September be expected to give up their place at that time?

In my, very non-legal, opinion, the original poster should have taken their deposit back in July, and made a new start date for December in September or October.
I think the original poster is lucky to be getting 50% deposit returned. Take the money on offer, and move on.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

No, she changed the September start date in July. More than six weeks notice, as per the agreement, and plenty of time for them to find another child to take that place.

It's not like the creche would've had an empty space as a result between September and now. I sincerely doubt that they are out of pocket at all over the whole thing.

Wrong on so many fronts. If it was the end of July with a start date of 1st September, for instance, then it is less than 6 weeks notice. You are making assertions without knowing the facts.
The creche could well have refused another child because of this.
They could most certainly be out of picket if they took on staff to meet the ratios required as a result if this child.
OP paid a deposit and, I feel, in this particular case should not have it refunded.

Chattastrophe!

What would be the point of mentioning a six-week cancellation notice period if there's no reason for the customer to give it? "We require six weeks notice of cancellations, but it doesn't matter whether you give us that or not, we're going to keep your deposit either way." Makes no sense.

They should certainly have included something in the agreement to say what would happen if the start date is rescheduled by the parents. E.g. if it's rescheduled, the right to refund of deposit is waived. However it seems the creche didn't do that, and that's their own fault.

By the way, it's certainly not unusual to change start dates like that. Many mothers don't decide until they're on maternity leave whether or not they'll take the additional unpaid leave. So it makes sense to book for the earliest expected start date, and reschedule if necessary. Creches are well used to this. In fact, when the September start date was cancelled, the creche probably had babies with a July start date that was rescheduled to September. So they probably had the space filled even before they had to go calling parents on waiting lists etc.

I know that, in contract law, where there is ambiguity, the contract will be interpreted in favour of the party who DIDN'T draft the contract (I.e. the parents in this case.) If I were in the OPs position, I'd be holding out for my full deposit to be refunded (unless of course the signed agreement made it clear that deposits would be retained even where sufficient notice was given.) I've a feeling the creche would refund it even before the case got as far as the Small Claims Court.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I think you have missed the point. They have a six week notice requirement for this very reason. OP did not give 6 weeks notice of cancellation. And, the issue is not about changed dates - they can happen - she cancelled her booking altogether after deferring the start date - worse again! Read the entire piece.

Melendez

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ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Melendez wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

My point exactly!
But it doesn't matter as she cancelled after September anyway!

Melendez

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AltAccount

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

It's not like the creche would've had an empty space as a result between September and now. I sincerely doubt that they are out of pocket at all over the whole thing.

IMHO crèche are out €2-3k or so for the kid they could have started in Sept in the OP's place.
Instead this place stayed empty from Sept to prob Dec because of the OP's messing about.

OP you may be entitled to the deposit legally, but if you've any decency you won't pursue it - you've messed this business aroun enough.

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

Rick Rod

Melendez wrote: »

That assumes the creche is filled to capacity - tends not to be the case these days. Staff ratios are more of an issue, but creches tend to employ staff on a casual basis so can remedy this fairly quickly. I doubt the creche lost out financially, other than the disappointment of losing a customer.

The law doesn't assume. And in this case the law is on the side of the crèche

Melendez

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Rick Rod

Melendez wrote: »

The point I was replying to was the assumption made by AltAccount that the creche was at a loss of 2-3K due to being messed about by the Opening poster and therefore they are morally obliged to give up the deposit regardless of whether they are legally entitled to it. This is highly unlikely to be the case.

How have you established that the law is on the side of the creche? I have given an opinion of what I believe would be the legal position and shown my reasoning, but you state it as fact. Can you back this up?

Yes I can

Melendez

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JimsAlterEgo

based on my understanding of what is written in the contract the refund should happen, the OP followed the correct procedures. The issue seems to be that the creche didn't have this scenario covered.

green123

green123 wrote: »

there is no point in a business taking a deposit if the deposit is going to be returned.

it would be a waste of time for a business to take a deposit if the customer can just change their mind and get the deposit back.

why would a business take a deposit ? what good is a deposit to a business if the deposit was so easy to get back ?

a deposit is taken to hold the customer to a deal.

nobody has answered my question yet.

why would a business take a deposit ? what good is a deposit to a business if the deposit was so easy to get back ?

Melendez

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Greenmachine

I suspect the 6 week notice period is to withdraw the child from the creche as in the child is already enrolled and parent can't just stop paying. They have 6 weeks where they are required to maintain payments before they can cancel their child's enrollment. I have friends working in creches where the parents are required to give notice. Giving the creche time to refill the place. The creche has already extended the OP a huge courtesy in changing the start date. On top of that they have now decided to offer half the deposit back to appease the OP. I suggest the OP should take this and run. Taking the case to small claim will likely result in the case being laughed out of court.

Melendez

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Greenmachine

Melendez wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I have not made up a single thing. I suggest you withdraw that allegation. Your link mean nothing in the slightest going by your own logic. They have already made a reasonable accommodation to the OP.

Melendez

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Rick Rod

Melendez wrote: »

You are suggesting the six weeks notice only applies where the child has started in the creche - this is fantasy on your part, it is not what we have been told in the opening post.

I have provided a link to a creche where the deposit is refundable prior to the child starting, to prove to you that it happens.

It happens with appropriate notice though. This is not the case here at all