New number plates haven’t helped motor industry

TheBoffin

Seen This Article Today

When are they actually going to address the REAL problem in the Motor Industry and abolish VRT.

Anan1

TheBoffin wrote: »

Seen This Article Today

When are they actually going to address the REAL problem in the Motor Industry and abolish VRT.

Yeah, they said that before and then VRT rates were slashed and sales went down the toilet. If you ask me, the REAL problem in the Motor Industry is ingrained incompetence/laziness. That and a refusal to accept that less money sloshing around = fewer buyers of new cars.

fl4pj4ck

I am surprised!

CiniO

Ireland doesn't manufacture any cars, therefore there is no motor industry.
All vehicle sales support economies of other countries, therefore it's not desirable for Irish people to spend too much money on cars.
The less people will spend on purchasing vehicles, the better for Irish economy.

endacl

Well of course they haven't. Daft half-baked ideas don't work. Because they're daft and half-baked. Car prices on a par with euro averages would help, but won't ever happen. A massive reduction in vrt would help, but likewise, won't ever happen.

Guy:Incognito

CiniO wrote: »

Ireland doesn't manufacture any cars, therefore there is no motor industry.
All vehicle sales support economies of other countries, therefore it's not desirable for Irish people to spend too much money on cars.
The less people will spend on purchasing vehicles, the better for Irish economy.

Lots of goods arent produced here. Should we just go back to the days of a bit of beef and a couple of potatoes every day to eat and a nice arran jumper as your main waredrobe?

it supports plenty of job and tax take.

MagicMarker

CiniO wrote: »

Ireland doesn't manufacture any cars, therefore there is no motor industry.
All vehicle sales support economies of other countries, therefore it's not desirable for Irish people to spend too much money on cars.
The less people will spend on purchasing vehicles, the better for Irish economy.

This is a wind up right?

Anan1

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Lots of goods arent produced here. Should we just go back to the days of a bit of beef and a couple of potatoes every day to eat and a nice arran jumper as your main waredrobe?

it supports plenty of job and tax take.

He's right though, if the people spent that same money on say home improvements then more of it would stay within the country. I'm speaking here purely from a narrow Irish economic viewpoint.

Taylor365

endacl wrote: »

Well of course they haven't. Daft half-baked ideas don't work. Because they're daft and half-baked. Car prices on a par with euro averages would help, but won't ever happen. A massive reduction in vrt would help, but likewise, won't ever happen.

My dear friend,

...you also forget the massively over-charged tax rates and fraud sized insurance payments (on anything worth more than a donkey, price wise and speed wise).

Irish motor industry can go down the swany for all i care. (People within the industry know exactly where changes are needed. If not, then what are they doing there!)

/End Friday rant

CiniO

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Lots of goods arent produced here. Should we just go back to the days of a bit of beef and a couple of potatoes every day to eat and a nice arran jumper as your main waredrobe?

True.
But cars are rather one of the most expensive ones.

I'm not saying that Irish people should stop driving, because we don't produce cars.
I'm saying that from economy point of view, instead of spending big money on brand new cars, which money nearly entirely goes abroad, it's better if Irish people drove bit older cars. This contributes to Irish economy, by supporting local garages, mechanics, etc.


Surely it's nice to have a brand new car, but it's not good for Irish economy.
That's why we have VRT, and abolishing it like OP proposed (even though I'd love to see it) it wouldn't do any good for Irish economy IMO.

it supports plenty of job and tax take.

All job assosciated with new car sales is few sales person and service.
People who drive older vehicles which need more maintenance, give more support to local job market.

CiniO

MagicMarker wrote: »

This is a wind up right?

No.
Do you think that buying new vehicles by Irish people is good for Irish economy?

TheBoffin

CiniO wrote: »

True.
But cars are rather one of the most expensive ones.

I'm not saying that Irish people should stop driving, because we don't produce cars.
I'm saying that from economy point of view, instead of spending big money on brand new cars, which money nearly entirely goes abroad, it's better if Irish people drove bit older cars. This contributes to Irish economy, by supporting local garages, mechanics, etc.

Surely it's nice to have a brand new car, but it's not good for Irish economy.
That's why we have VRT, and abolishing it like OP proposed (even though I'd love to see it) it wouldn't do any good for Irish economy IMO.

I agree to a point, you will always have the customer that wants a new car every year, or every 2 years. This circulates new and good quality cars into the second hand market.

The removal of VRT would create a level playing field and might even encourage UK buying here for a change if the exchange rate is in favor. I also agree, VRT abolition is probably never going to happen.

Triangla

CiniO wrote: »

Ireland doesn't manufacture any cars, therefore there is no motor industry.
All vehicle sales support economies of other countries, therefore it's not desirable for Irish people to spend too much money on cars.
The less people will spend on purchasing vehicles, the better for Irish economy.

And every country that buys Irish exports only buys local goods and then we are screwed.

Anan1

TheBoffin wrote: »

The removal of VRT would create a level playing field

How exactly does VRT render the playing field unlevel?

TheBoffin wrote: »

and might even encourage UK buying here for a change if the exchange rate is in favor.

What difference would it make? There's no VRT on new cars being sold for reexport, and it's now (largely) reclaimable on used cars.

Triangla wrote: »

And every country that buys Irish exports only buys local goods and then we are screwed.

You think they'd boycott us if we bought fewer new cars?

Iwannahurl

The auto manufacturers have the car-flogging formula right in the UK: easy credit.

Cheap credit is a great way of fuelling any asset bubble, so why not cars too? Now is good, etc.

HandsomeDan

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Lots of goods arent produced here. Should we just go back to the days of a bit of beef and a couple of potatoes every day to eat and a nice arran jumper as your main waredrobe?

it supports plenty of job and tax take.

Considering the sums involved I'd say the benefits are minimal.

If I buy a samsung tv, the guy selling is no less knowledgeable than a car sales man and yet the sums involved are tiny. For a fraction of the cost I'm generating comparable economic activity :pac:

wexie

Surely abandoning / lowering the VRT will only result in more people bringing in cars from the UK?
That's what I'd do, better specced car, that's likely had an easier life and may well have been looked after better.
Not to mention a much larger / better selection.

SJT1

They say the motor industry is down 6% for the year, wonder how far it actually is down when you take into account all the 131 and 132 pre reg's sitting in dealer forecourts at present

crusher000

No mon, no fun. It's simples

Cleveland Hot Pocket

If they abolished VRT then there would be no reason to buy a car here anymore.

Better service, cheaper, and better minded cars available across the pond.

jimgoose

I gave up on all of it as soon as I started hearing car dealership ads on t'wireless banging on about getting "Your 131 plate today!!". Not a dicky-bird about specs, performance, not even Greenie-hole credentials. Drunken Cheeses Cripes on a Space-Hopper, only in Ireland!

Anan1

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

If they abolished VRT then there would be no reason to buy a car here anymore.

Better service, cheaper, and better minded cars available across the pond.

If they abolished VRT then prices of used cars here would fall until they were competitive with those of imports.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Anan1 wrote: »

If they abolished VRT then prices of used cars here would fall until they were competitive with those of imports.

And that would happen because?

Of what I outlined! No-one would buy here when the UK was so much cheaper for the same car. (with better spec, better service and shock horror a FSH :P )

DuckSlice

Surely the car companies are set up as a separate company in Ireland, like Toyota, Honda, Opel etc will all be set up as a separate company I would have thought? So they would still pay their tax in Ireland etc etc etc. I could be wrong tho.

sonny jim bob jones

crusher000 wrote: »

No mon, no fun. It's simples

Do they not open Mondays? How do they expect to survive taking long weekends?

sonny jim bob jones

Apologies if this has been asked and answered previously, but will we be going back to 14 X next year or will it be 141 X, 142 X, 151 X etc?

SJT1

sonny jim bob jones wrote: »

Apologies if this has been asked and answered previously, but will we be going back to 14 X next year or will it be 141 X, 142 X, 151 X etc?

Nope, it's here to stay 141,142......

Red Nissan

I have to say it was terribly annoying listening to those stupid ads in the middle of that saying you can now enjoy another new year.

How fukeeen numnuckly stupid and IMO, would have put people off buying if they had been considering.

Anan1

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

And that would happen because?

Of what I outlined! No-one would buy here when the UK was so much cheaper for the same car. (with better spec, better service and shock horror a FSH :P )

Yourself and vectra seem to have a rare talent for missing the obvious. Prices would fall until people did buy here.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Anan1 wrote: »

Yourself and vectra seem to have a rare talent for missing the obvious. Prices would fall until people did buy here.

Missing the obvious?
No, it is the simple rule of supply + demand.
Uk prices set a soft price ceiling. If there were no VRT then the ceiling would be lowered but until that lowering happens people would go across the pond.

I think you are the one who is missing the obvious, or we are saying the same thing in an end around way.

BMJD

If/when unemployment is heading towards 5% is when the motor "industry" can expect their fortunes to be on the up. I don't understand why those numpties think they deserve special treatment. Nobody needs to buy a new car, they need to wake up.

Anan1

BMJD wrote: »

If/when unemployment is heading towards 5% is when the motor "industry" can expect their fortunes to be on the up. I don't understand why those numpties think they deserve special treatment. Nobody needs to buy a new car, they need to wake up.

+1, they're as bad as the taxi drivers.

Guy:Incognito

CiniO wrote: »

True.
But cars are rather one of the most expensive ones.

I'm not saying that Irish people should stop driving, because we don't produce cars.
I'm saying that from economy point of view, instead of spending big money on brand new cars, which money nearly entirely goes abroad, it's better if Irish people drove bit older cars. This contributes to Irish economy, by supporting local garages, mechanics, etc.


Surely it's nice to have a brand new car, but it's not good for Irish economy.
That's why we have VRT, and abolishing it like OP proposed (even though I'd love to see it) it wouldn't do any good for Irish economy IMO.


All job assosciated with new car sales is few sales person and service.
People who drive older vehicles which need more maintenance, give more support to local job market.

So all we need is for a few companies to start making 2nd hand caes and we're set.

Using the fact that its an expensive item is bull btw. You could easily buy lots of a smaller item thats adds up to the same price as a car . A suite of furniture is expensive. Between that, thee tv, maybe a console, the tv stand, an stb, and all the other bits that make up the sitting room im sure a fair few quid is going abroad

Guy:Incognito

SJT1 wrote: »

They say the motor industry is down 6% for the year, wonder how far it actually is down when you take into account all the 131 and 132 pre reg's sitting in dealer forecourts at present

The same as when the pre reg'd 12's were taken in to account possibly.

jimgoose

CiniO wrote: »

...instead of spending big money on brand new cars, which money nearly entirely goes abroad, it's better if Irish people drove bit older cars.....

Will you can it already?? The whole Plankenomics theory is entirely predicated on a plentiful supply of gawbeens who go galloping off to get their fantastic 132 plates when IndaKinny() (via the mechanism of his fist shoved up Bill Cullen's hole) tells 'em!

Now I'm outta here, they already know too much... <SLAM>

Anan1

Of course if we raised the cost of buying a new car and lowered the cost of maintaining it then we might just take better care of, and get more use out of it..

No Pants

A little bit off the VRT would be nice to encourage a better spec on offer, but what I'd really like is a reduction in motor tax and an end to diesel encouragement. Happy with the car that I have right now, but if/when I do want another, I'd rather there were more than 5 petrol engined cars in the country to choose from.

245

Its a niche example but here goes:

Subaru UK have announced that the price of the XV has been cut by £2,300 this year because the Yen has dropped in value as they've more margin.

The Yen has dropped to a similar extent against the Euro. The XV diesel (a Focus sized crossover) in Ireland remains priced at €33,500 before delivery & metallic.

Do you reckon that anyone in IM Automotive is asking why they only sold 85 cars in Ireland in 2013?

The previous model Legacy diesel was priced at around €3k over the price of a standard Avensis. The current basic model is priced at €36,795 before delivery & metallic. Anyone who has test driven the current model will most likely agree that it isn't worth it.

One of the reasons that I traded in my Legacy diesel and bought another brand is that I was tired of paying over €300 for a service at a Subaru dealer.

Maybe there are lessons to be learned within some sections of the Irish motor industry.

Voodoomelon

Even the term "motor industry" in this country is a bit of a joke. It's bunch of franchises with glass houses, pumping money straight out the country.
You don't hear people talking about McDonalds in the "fast food industry".

The only reason the motor trade is treated like and called an industry, is because of the VAT & VRT tax take for the government. If it was like any other un-viable business, it should be allow to fail if it's on its knees.

Sure dealers and employed staff should have secure employment, but there's nothing secure about selling €20k+ cars in a country in the middle of a recession.

Running and maintaining older cars would surely make more sense, instead of pushing people into buying huge depreciating assets with low or zero finance deals. Adding an extra number to the registration plate doesn't make money magically fall out of peoples underwear.

Sure, business is business and dealers have every right to advertise and push their sales hard. It all just seems a bit backward to me, considering the position the country is in.

lomb

Happy New Year 132!!

NewBeefFarmer

Why would it held, so it tells you which half of the year the car was first reg, but the reg cert tells u the month.
Just ask. . .

Boskowski

The whole idea of having the registration year of the car visible on the number plate is stupid to begin with. All it leads to is number plate snobs.

When I came to Ireland was the first time I heard people saying I drive a ninety something or zero something suchandsuch. Nobody would ever say that for example in Germany.
Sure it plays a role when buying and selling just as it does here, but only here it feels like its the most important aspect of the car.

I drive a smashing condition E39. I dare say - just looking at the car itself, not at the resale value - I wouldn't trade it for a lot of recent cars. But all people see here is 'ah a 98 Beamer, ah well'. They'd probably have a friggin 09 Polo over it.

Whats a total desaster is the punitive motor tax rate. As if scrapping a perfectly good 98 5 series with 2500cc and buying a new supposedly low emission whatnot would be any better for the environment than just keeping her. Green policy my arse.

As for abolishing VRT would be a disaster...I don't buy that either. It would be tough for a while cos it would devalue cars that are already on the road quite a bit compared to UK second hand cars. But if you go on that you're saying we can never abolish VRT to protect people's investment.
On the other side new cars would drop significantly and we may finally get proper specs like everybody else does for less money and prices would become more transparent, too.

Same as in so many other areas the Irish car market (I refuse to call it motor industry) is fecked through too much meddling and pandering to lobby groups.

For Forks Sake

Sucks to be the following:

Registrations January-October

Alfa Romeo: 15
Chevrolet: 3
Fiat: 444
Subaru: 93

Boskowski

Sitec wrote: »

Genuinely shocked with the Alfa and Fiat numbers. Whats going on there?

Maybe just not a good enough car for the money compared to others? Only decent Alfa lately seems the 159 and I think they don't do them anymore. Also maybe not an interesting enough diesel range?

Pique

I hate the fact that VRT is such a large percentage of the price of new cars.

However, manufacturers take this into account in the price they sell the cars at in individual markets.

For many cars, we actually get them cheap (before tax) compared to other markets.

Now, if VRT was removed, the pre-tax price would increase as the manufacturers would realise that as we have been accustomed to paying a certain price then they could make more money, charge the buyers a little less, and the exchequer gets nothing.

VRT is a valuable source of income to Ireland and although it's a pita when it comes to buying a new car, it's a bit naive to assume that cars would automatically drop by the corresponding value

Plus the shortfall would inevitably have to be made up elsewhere, tax wise. So we'd save a euro on a new car but lose 2 elsewhere.

Or that's the way I see it...

TheBoffin

wexie wrote: »

Surely abandoning / lowering the VRT will only result in more people bringing in cars from the UK?
That's what I'd do, better specced car, that's likely had an easier life and may well have been looked after better.
Not to mention a much larger / better selection.

Thats what is happening at the moment. If VRT did not exist then cars would be available with higher spec here. The reason spec is basic in Ireland is because the spec is also subject to the VRT as its calculated on the total car price.

I recently went about changing my own car, went to the main dealer and discussed a 2yr old car sitting on the forecourt. The dealer wanted €9,500 more than what it would cost me to bring in the same model, better spec, lower mileage one from the UK and VRT it. What annoyed me the most was them trying to sell the bare bones model at a premium price.

The Irish market is flooded with cars that are base-line models, that have buttons on the dash blanked out, buttons that actually do things in other countries. With VRT removed it would reduce the price of putting a decent spec on a new car.

hansfrei

No way I'd give the government several thousand euro for a car. No chance. We need massive reforms of the tax system here. Wage slaves like me are getting some doing.

cerastes

CiniO wrote: »

Ireland doesn't manufacture any cars, therefore there is no motor industry.
All vehicle sales support economies of other countries, therefore it's not desirable for Irish people to spend too much money on cars.
The less people will spend on purchasing vehicles, the better for Irish economy.

MagicMarker wrote: »

This is a wind up right?

He's right there though

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Missing the obvious?
No, it is the simple rule of supply + demand.
Uk prices set a soft price ceiling. If there were no VRT then the ceiling would be lowered but until that lowering happens people would go across the pond.

I think you are the one who is missing the obvious, or we are saying the same thing in an end around way.

What about removing VRT on new cars, either for higher spec or cheaper price?
But not apply that to other imports?
advantages/disadvantages?

Cienciano

Anan1 wrote: »

Yeah, they said that before and then VRT rates were slashed and sales went down the toilet. If you ask me, the REAL problem in the Motor Industry is ingrained incompetence/laziness. That and a refusal to accept that less money sloshing around = fewer buyers of new cars.

Wife is shopping around for a brand new car and have to agree on that one. Unbelievable how many main dealers don't know the basic spec of certain cars, or what deals are being advertised. Unless you're asking for the most basic spec, they're confused. And they wonder why people are finding it hard to hand over €25k to them!

dr.fuzzenstein

CiniO wrote: »

No.
Do you think that buying new vehicles by Irish people is good for Irish economy?

Exactly.
The motor "industry" (a handful of showrooms) seems to have suffered under the illusion that if we invent this brilliant new number plate scheme, we will all go back to buying brand new cars every 3 years and scrapping 10 year old cars because they are dangerous death traps.
Whoever though up of this plan did so in a pub after 10 pints.
Whoever agreed to this did so in the same pub after another 10 pints.
It was monumentally stupid, I am almost personally insulted by the fact that such an idea could ever be conceived, taken seriously and implemented.
It can only be that some idiot gave some other idiot a brown envelope.
I hate to say it, but it looks daft, backward and, well, Oirish.
This country has intelligent, capable people in it, how come anyone in a position of power is stupid as a rock?

MuppetCheck

Sitec wrote: »

Genuinely shocked with the Alfa and Fiat numbers. Whats going on there?

To be honest I'm surprised Fiat are so high given the Irish mentality towards them. Bar the Panda they are old cars at this stage.

Alfa deserve to do better imo but a two car range isn't helping. Plus the cars aren't anything special either. I can't understand why they even bother at this stage but things might change IF they launch the 159 replacement.

I'm not surprised the plates haven't helped. I wonder how warranty and finance offers impact sales through. I can see those being a bigger stimulus than what's stuck to the front bumper.