Which accountant?

digzy

I have a dental practice with 2 employees. I feel the accounts are fairly simple. A portion of the business trades through a company. My current accountant charges about 3k for the 2 lots of books.

Anyway, I'm not overly impressed with the service and am thinking of changing. So I'm wondering is there any advantage to dealing with one of the bigger city based firms as opposed to the smaller rural based ones? As regards fees is there a big jump? How does one go about getting quotes as I imagine someone would need a fair bit of time to peruse the previous years accounts?

worded

Hi,

these do our accounts ... Dublin and tipp based

(mod edit) please PM specific details (end mod edit)

Fast efficient and well priced.

Email or phone for a quote?

Alan Shore

€2,440 plus VAT is not that far off the mark for 2 sets of accounts for a dentist.

How is it structured, I imagine that the dental hygienist work goes thought the company direct to the customer. Who came up with that structure?

I've not seen dental practices running companies before.

nompere

Alan Shore wrote: »

€2,440 plus VAT is not that far off the mark for 2 sets of accounts for a dentist.

How is it structured, I imagine that the dental hygienist work goes thought the company direct to the customer. Who came up with that structure?

I've not seen dental practices running companies before.

One or two quite high profile firms came up with this structure for professional businesses. The idea, broadly, was to get lots of profits into the limited company where those profits cold be used to fund directors' pensions without having to worry about the percentage limits that apply to Case 2 earnings. So the company charged large administration fees to the partnership.

I recall being at an ITI breakfast meeting some years ago when this was discussed.

Alan Shore

@nompere, ya I've heard of the structure before but a fundamental problem with it and dental or medical practices is VAT.

The company is effectively a consultancy company not a dentist, therefore has to charge VAT which is not recoverable in the practice.

nompere

I just marked it down as exotic stuff that wasn't suitable for any of my clients, and carried on!

smcgiff

OP,


It's possible that you are not getting value for money - it's hard to say. However, the larger firms are likely to charge more and the large 4 probably may not want to take you on. Not that they woukd refuse you, but would quote a prohibitive fee.

Alan Shore

nompere wrote: »

I just marked it down as exotic stuff that wasn't suitable for any of my clients, and carried on!

That was my view too.

digzy

Alan Shore wrote: »

@nompere, ya I've heard of the structure before but a fundamental problem with it and dental or medical practices is VAT.

The company is effectively a consultancy company not a dentist, therefore has to charge VAT which is not recoverable in the practice.

well, I'd have agreed with you, but I was audited a few years back and the revenue hadn't an issue. I know a few dentists that trade as companies. They only put through 'private' income. look at smiles dental. they trade fairly openly as a company. while it may be an issue for the dental council I don't see why it'd be an issue for revenue. dental services are vat exempt, irrespective of whether the dentist is a sole trader or a company.

Having said all that, I'm going to wind up mine. It's pointless in my opinion. the taxman will get their hands on it eventually. You've to pay tax on the income you take from the company anyway and the only benefit is an increased pension down the road. what's the argument in favour?

digzy

nompere wrote: »

One or two quite high profile firms came up with this structure for professional businesses. The idea, broadly, was to get lots of profits into the limited company where those profits cold be used to fund directors' pensions without having to worry about the percentage limits that apply to Case 2 earnings. So the company charged large administration fees to the partnership.

I recall being at an ITI breakfast meeting some years ago when this was discussed.

what are case 2 earnings?

Alan Shore

Income from self employment are taxed under schedule D, income from trades are Case 1 and income from professions are case 2.

My understanding is that it is illegal for a company to provide "dental services"!
http://www.bck.ie/system/assets/14/original/irish-dentistry-article-january-2012.pdf?1329738517

digzy

Alan Shore wrote: »

Income from self employment are taxed under schedule D, income from trades are Case 1 and income from professions are case 2.

My understanding is that it is illegal for a company to provide "dental services"!
http://www.bck.ie/system/assets/14/original/irish-dentistry-article-january-2012.pdf?1329738517

interesting article. I don't think it is 'illegal' in that it's not black and white. I've never heard of the council taking any action against a dentist over this issue. I'm told the main reason for the stance is to do with the indemnity issue. they want dr john murphy responsible for his work and not have the complexity of dealing with a company. I'm amazed that a corporate like smiles can trade openly as a company. I believe that the comp authority were anxious to allow incorporation as a means to improve competition and lowering price. that's another argument!
As regards my own personal situation, its along the lines of that described in the final paragraph of that article.

digzy

smcgiff wrote: »

OP,


It's possible that you are not getting value for money - it's hard to say. However, the larger firms are likely to charge more and the large 4 probably may not want to take you on. Not that they woukd refuse you, but would quote a prohibitive fee.

To be fair, I can't say whether I'm getting value for money. I've no issue on that front. Just small things like late filing stuff that we've done ages ago, being hard to contact, told he'd get back to me on a query and then hearing nothing. Not knowing the pension contribution for someone my age etc etc....the pinnacle was a reference he made to another client re my business who said it back to me which is what peevs me the most.a few years back when I worked as an associate getting a 50% split he put down the total as my income. Luckily I copped it myself and ended up getting back a revenue refund of about 30k!

Essentially, I'm looking for someone who'll do the books so that everything stacks up revenue wise who can advise on legitimate ways of reducing a tax liability and keeps their trap shut!

smcgiff

digzy wrote: »

To be fair, I can't say whether I'm getting value for money. I've no issue on that front. Just small things like late filing stuff that we've done ages ago, being hard to contact, told he'd get back to me on a query and then hearing nothing. Not knowing the pension contribution for someone my age etc etc....the pinnacle was a reference he made to another client re my business who said it back to me which is what peevs me the most.a few years back when I worked as an associate getting a 50% split he put down the total as my income. Luckily I copped it myself and ended up getting back a revenue refund of about 30k!

Essentially, I'm looking for someone who'll do the books so that everything stacks up revenue wise who can advise on legitimate ways of reducing a tax liability and keeps their trap shut!

Ah, in fairness that sounds like a poor service. You might want to post your details on the above stickie and hopefully you might get a response.

Sounds like time to look around.

digzy

Cheers lads

Many thanks for the replies and Pm's with whom I'll be in touch during the week.