How much for this extension?

sarkozy

My OH and I are in the process of renovating our turn-of-the century two-storey terraced redbrick, around 95 m/sq.

Having provided our budget for the job to our architect at the beginning, we have been working with the architect to develop our favoured proposal

We have now heard from the architect that the plans we've been developing all this time are not likely to be within budget, but we are not yet at tendering stage so we don't know what the damage will really be. This came as quite a shock to us as our heads are now spinning about what we could reasonably do to without in order to create a house that works better for us.

So my question is, roughly, how much are we looking at for this extension?

It's a very modest extension - around 4.5 m/sq. - with the idea to connect our return with the back room, requiring the back wall and part of the interconnecting walls to be knocked through (where the back wall, return side-wall and internal wall meet) to create a single space. This requires a T-shaped steel beam and column to support the rest of the house (the house is roughly 5.5m wide). The extension ceiling will be roughly 9 feet tall (same as back room ceiling height). We hope for the rear to be entirely glazed with a full height sliding glass screen to take advantage of the garden and south-facing aspect.

I've looked at some online calculators, but these seem way off (on the low side, to me, even though I've no experience in this).

BryanF

sarkozy wrote: »

renovating our turn-of-the century two-storey terraced redbrick, around 95 m/sq...
It's a very modest extension - around 4.5 m/sq...

• requiring the back wall and part of the interconnecting walls to be knocked through (where the back wall, return side-wall and internal wall meet) to create a single space.
• This requires a T-shaped steel beam and column to support the rest of the house (the house is roughly 5.5m wide). The extension ceiling will be roughly 9 feet tall (same as back room ceiling height).
• We hope for the rear to be entirely glazed with a full height sliding glass screen to take advantage of the garden and south-facing aspect.

• I worked on a similar sized extension about 9msq, where breaking into the existing dwelling for open plan living with flush ceilings, meant extensive structural supports to external and internal load bearing walls. All-in (with high level of detailed design) including everything the lowest tender came to circa 40K
• access to a terrace will increase the construction cost. we would need to understand to extent of the structural and remedial works to create the volume required - but offering a cost here is useless to you, bring in a QS for a half day to review & offer solutions, it will be worth every penny.
• fully glazed walls look great - but when we go to non standard sizes there is a premium, especially if you want thermal comfort and good looks from them

kkelliher

As bryanf has stated you need to have the detail to put a price on it. The extension may only be 4.5m2 but internal tie in details are for a much bigger area and finishes, plastering and structure will all increase your cost per m2. Your material choices will also have an impact especially on your glazing which will be expensive if all large panes / folding etc.

A quick costing by a qs based on your actual design is the best indicator as otherwise its all ballpark guesswork

sarkozy

Thanks. Strange, then, that this hasn't been checked out by the architect until this point? It has never been discussed with us in the context of our initial budget, which we gave at the outset.

BoardsMember

Funny that the architect would not keep discussion/scope to within budget. Also funny that seemingly lots of scope creep/discussion without client ever asking questions about effect on price/budget, that's hard to believe.

kkelliher

sarkozy wrote: »

Thanks. Strange, then, that this hasn't been checked out by the architect until this point? It has never been discussed with us in the context of our initial budget, which we gave at the outset.

In general they dont. There is a thin line between designing to a clients brief and cost of the brief. In alot of cases the existing layout of the house will dictate alot of the cost and this is outside everyones control.

BoardsMember

kkelliher wrote: »

In general they dont. There is a thin line between designing to a clients brief and cost of the brief. In alot of cases the existing layout of the house will dictate alot of the cost and this is outside everyones control.

That would annoy me greatly. Surely the most important thing is affordability. Whats the point in discussing ideas that will mever be within stated budget. I know u can work out the ideal and then scale back to meet budget, but if the ideal is waaaay beyond budget I just think it leaves clients dissatisfied with any outcome

BryanF

sarkozy wrote: »

Having provided our budget for the job to our architect at the beginning, we have been working with the architect to develop our favoured proposal

BoardsMember wrote: »

Surely the most important thing is affordability. Whats the point in discussing ideas that will mever be within stated budget.

is the most important thing the set budget - OR was the set budget realistic in the first place?
can the budget be increased if the OP deems the new deisgn create their ideal home?

kkelliher wrote: »

There is a thin line between designing to a clients brief and cost of the brief. In alot of cases the existing layout of the house will dictate alot of the cost and this is outside everyones control.

sarkozy

The budget was set at the outset with minimal expectations beyond refurbishment and possibly knocking through a wall between front and back rooms. It was the architect who convinced us we could achieve more within budget. After this, design proposals were made, but budgetary implications of each proposal, vis-a-vis our budget, were never mentioned. So by now, we've worked with the architect on developing a chosen proposal which we could never afford in the first place, which has wasted a lot of time. It's nearly winter, and we're cold.

BoardsMember

BryanF wrote: »

is the most important thing the set budget - OR was the set budget realistic in the first place?
can the budget be increased if the OP deems the new deisgn create their ideal home?

Assuming people want to get paid, I would have said YES to this!

I think that the architect maybe does not always see it this way, or else believes the budget can be extended or something.

sarkozy

Update: the tenders came in a couple of weeks ago and the prices were at least twice as much as the budget given to the architect. How common is this?

Of course we know with any build, compromises must be made, but this seems a bit mad.

There's no money for the extension, which the architect recommended, and we assumed on advice would be affordable (and that's even with the kitchen, bathroom and other items excluded).

Disappointed to say the least.

kkelliher

sarkozy wrote: »

Update: the tenders came in a couple of weeks ago and the prices were at least twice as much as the budget given to the architect. How common is this?

Of course we know with any build, compromises must be made, but this seems a bit mad.

There's no money for the extension, which the architect recommended, and we assumed on advice would be affordable (and that's even with the kitchen, bathroom and other items excluded).

Disappointed to say the least.

Generally not a suprise but the extent of overshoot is disappointing. Not to tar a profession generally but architects dont do costing very well as they base everything on global costs per m2 which simply do not work in practice. You have to cost each item and an architect will generally not do this or know what the individual parts cost. Unless you have a detailed item breakdown it will be difficult to analyse where savings can be made

sarkozy

So it's normal and regular architectural practice for proposals to run 110%+ over-budget?

kkelliher

sarkozy wrote: »

So it's normal and regular architectural practice for proposals to run 110%+ over-budget?

In my experience it is normal for them to be over budget but not generally by such a large figure but i have had similar situations before

BryanF

sarkozy wrote: »

Update: the tenders came in a couple of weeks ago and the prices were at least twice as much as the budget given to the architect. How common is this?

Of course we know with any build, compromises must be made, but this seems a bit mad.

There's no money for the extension, which the architect recommended, and we assumed on advice would be affordable (and that's even with the kitchen, bathroom and other items excluded).

Disappointed to say the least.

What did 'you ask for' and what was 'your budget' and what 'were the quotes'?
Regarding your 'disappointment' at your architect - s/he is not a cost consultant, s/he is a design consultant, BUT should from experience have a rough idea.
however and I hate to say we told you told you so but:)
As intimated earlier,people can be unrealistic in cost expectations. this is not to take from the issue of archs that don't acknowledge unrealistic budgets early in the process, but if things were so tight why did you not insist on a Qs to cost at design stage, which was a pointed out to you, when you visited us last ?

BryanF

sarkozy wrote: »

So it's normal and regular architectural practice for proposals to run 110%+ over-budget?

It's normal for a Qs to cost a design proposal at +\- 20%
it is IMO normal for an architect to tell a client that with retrofits/ extensions the msq cost will be a greater than new build...
And that a 15/20% contingency should also apply outside of the contract sum... A figure greater than say 5/10% contingency for new builds.

General question: do architects feel that if they are honest regarding their opinion on 'ball park' costs with perspective clients at interview stage, that their less scrupulous competitors will win the job? ( with as is often the case unrealistic expectations on time and cost of project delivery)

sarkozy

We understood from our meetings with the architect that he would, on our behalf, cost a design with an external QS, but this did not happen.

We were prepared, as mentioned in this thread, for rowing back up to 20% of expected costs beyond our actual budget (which were never discussed at any point during design stage).

I just do not understand how it's legitimate for any architect to work on the basis of anything beyond a 20% max. budget overrun - in this case well over 100% above budget.

And FYI, I did everything I could to advance the advice given and nothing changed.

Happy new year.

fash

You have been treated poorly and the service provided was bad.
The only thing you need to decide now is what to do.
I would say you may legitimately avoid paying the architect given that the work done was so deficient.

You may be able to bring proceedings in negligence- though what that would achieve may be limited- it doesn't appear you have suffered any major loss.

BryanF

fash wrote: »

You have been treated poorly and the service provided was bad.
The only thing you need to decide now is what to do.
I would say you may legitimately avoid paying the architect given that the work done was so deficient.

You may be able to bring proceedings in negligence- though what that would achieve may be limited- it doesn't appear you have suffered any major loss.

Why jump to sue, What would that solve, Don't you think that's Premature to say the least?
And Why jump to withhold payment? The poster can simply expect their architect to redesign the project to their budget. What has been lost here? Other than Time to the client & the cost to those that tendered, but they may be still be interested.
The architect should get paid, assuming they do the job they were hired to do (& assuming the instructions were clear from the client in the first place of course)

fash

BryanF wrote: »

Why jump to sue, What would that solve, Don't you think that's Premature to say the least?

actually the point was that suing is likely pointless.
However provided the architect was given the original budget or it was reasonably spelled out to him/her, the architect's failure to keep within 200% of that is sufficiently serious to constitute grounds not to pay.

BryanF

fash wrote: »

actually the point was that suing is likely pointless.
However provided the architect was given the original budget or it was reasonably spelled out to him/her, the architect's failure to keep within 200% of that is sufficiently serious to constitute grounds not to pay.

The op should Expect a re-design / re-tender.
Withholding payment does nothing but put up barriers and is an unnecessary escalation of an unfortunate situation.
Look for a solution/ resolution not confrontation.

hexosan

@BryanF - Out of curiosity if the OP was clear from the outset about their max budget do you think the arch should provide this re design /re tender within the original fee at no extra cost to the OP.
Surely the arch shouldn't be paid till the job is done , if an electrician cocked up your wiring you wouldn't pay him till the job was completed to a satisfactory level.

BryanF

hexosan wrote: »

@BryanF - Out of curiosity if the OP was clear from the outset about their max budget do you think the arch should provide this re design /re tender within the original fee at no extra cost to the OP

the point is you wouldn't jump up and down about ringing the law or not paying him.. you'd look to have the job done correctly.

I've had instances where my budget concerns were ignored by unrealistic expectative clients And left similar shocks take place BUT:
If they were clear about their max budget & realistic about the works they expected for that budget, then yes I'd expect a re-design/ pulled-back design & re- tender under the same fee

AFAIK This was a 4.5m2 extension /open plan kitchen/living area & 90m retro.. Reducing the cost will be a crossing out of major 'nice to have' items and probably the extension..

First thing I'd be doing is talking to the lowest 2 bidders asking what they would suggest in the company of the arch (& Qs )

kkelliher

Op has i believe stated budget was not discussed at design stage so talk of sueing is simply not going to be an option.

The fact that a budget was no discussed is ridiculous from both sides as you would not buy a car without a budget so why is this any different.

The bottom line is as per my previous post the cost in a refurb extension is generally dictated by the original building and therefore there may be little room for redesign but like all the devil will be in the detail

BryanF

Ahh! So the budget wasn't discussed? Leave the arch in the dark and then blame him...

kkelliher

BryanF wrote: »

Ahh! So the budget wasn't discussed? Leave the arch in the dark and then blame him...

Both to blame in my opinion as arch should know to ask as most clients' dreams will be more than their budget

sarkozy

kkelliher wrote: »

Both to blame in my opinion as arch should know to ask as most clients' dreams will be more than their budget

Other way around. We were up front about the budget from day one - the architect knew the envelope from day one and we were explicit that there would be no additional cash from any sources.

This we combined with a clear design brief.

Our initial expectations were realistic and within budget. We were sold more having specified the budget.

I meant that that budget was never discussed by the architect in the context of the architect's proposals. Why on earth would we not give an architect our budget?

I'm very surprised to read that people think this behaviour and lack of basic communication skills and professionalism is normal and acceptable.

kkelliher

sarkozy wrote: »

Other way around. We were up front about the budget from day one - the architect knew the envelope from day one and we were explicit that there would be no additional cash from any sources.

This we combined with a clear design brief.

Our initial expectations were realistic and within budget. We were sold more having specified the budget.

I meant that that budget was never discussed by the architect in the context of the architect's proposals. Why on earth would we not give an architect our budget?

I'm very surprised to read that people think this behaviour and lack of basic communication skills and professionalism is normal and acceptable.

Apologies i mis understood your previous post. To be clear i dont think anyone believes it is acceptable but it is normal. The main reason is the very fact that every project is unique and different and archs are not experts at cost they design.

it unfortunately is the norm for people not to employ a cost expert (qs) on projects and that is one of the main reasons for the uncertainty

fash

sarkozy wrote: »

I'm very surprised to read that people think this behaviour and lack of basic communication skills and professionalism is normal and acceptable.

I will repeat:
It is not acceptable and it is not professional- even if for some people it is normal.
You should not pay for such work done. The only question is how you wish to proceed- with this architect or with another. Unfortunately you are unlikely to get much by suing in negligence.

jonniebgood1

sarkozy wrote: »

Other way around. We were up front about the budget from day one - the architect knew the envelope from day one and we were explicit that there would be no additional cash from any sources.

This we combined with a clear design brief.

Our initial expectations were realistic and within budget. We were sold more having specified the budget.

I meant that that budget was never discussed by the architect in the context of the architect's proposals. Why on earth would we not give an architect our budget?

I'm very surprised to read that people think this behaviour and lack of basic communication skills and professionalism is normal and acceptable.

You did not employ a QS for costings. An Architect is employed for their design knowledge for the most part. Whilst there is some impetus on the Architect to keep budget in mind it is also a responsibility that you as the client must take some of the blame for as ultimately it is your money. If additional money was never going to be availiable then you should have been aware that increasing the scope of works was not possible (with at least equal responsibility shared with Architect). Thus it seems unfair to complain at this stage in the process.

sydthebeat

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

You did not employ a QS for costings. An Architect is employed for their design knowledge for the most part. Whilst there is some impetus on the Architect to keep budget in mind it is also a responsibility that you as the client must take some of the blame for as ultimately it is your money. If additional money was never going to be availiable then you should have been aware that increasing the scope of works was not possible (with at least equal responsibility shared with Architect). Thus it seems unfair to complain at this stage in the process.

That's bollox
The architect is almost always the design team leader and as such should either have a knowledgeable grasp of the costs of their design, or should include such in their design costs. The is NO prerequisite for any client at design stage to employ a QS seriously to keep the architects designs in check, especially at this level of domestic project.

An architect design anything 110% over budget shows a distinct lack of professIonalism and ability. You Commissioned a build of a certain budget and you've been handed a product that is
proven over that Budget.

Personally i would be fuming and demand a redesign at no extra cost and an apology for the sacrific of time on your part.

Either that or cut your losses and wash your hands.

archtech

You haven't disclosed your budget but I think it's fair to say it is relatively small, if there's such a difference in your budget and the actual tender price. On small scale projects prices can quickly add up disproportionately to the overall budget for things like moving a rainwater pipe or light switch etc and before you know it there's half the budget gone and not a block laid.

To be fair to your architect, you did state in your initial post he did flag the scheme was looking like it was going to be over budget.

General comment; in an ideal world it would be great to have a full design team for all projects, however when it comes to domestic work particularly that with a limited budget, the scale and the budget of the project sometimes doesn't allow for a full design team. Irrespective of project size there is a minimum time and cost to get a project to tender and if everyone was to cover their costs, the budget would be spent.

sarkozy

archtech wrote: »

You haven't disclosed your budget but I think it's fair to say it is relatively small, if there's such a difference in your budget and the actual tender price. On small scale projects prices can quickly add up disproportionately to the overall budget for things like moving a rainwater pipe or light switch etc and before you know it there's half the budget gone and not a block laid.

To be fair to your architect, you did state in your initial post he did flag the scheme was looking like it was going to be over budget.

General comment; in an ideal world it would be great to have a full design team for all projects, however when it comes to domestic work particularly that with a limited budget, the scale and the budget of the project sometimes doesn't allow for a full design team. Irrespective of project size there is a minimum time and cost to get a project to tender and if everyone was to cover their costs, the budget would be spent.

Your comment makes sense, thanks. You're right that our budget isn't massive and we fully had in mind the possibility of certain items disproportionately eating up the available budget. But you misinterpreted when I said the design was likely to go over budget - the architect mentioned this very late in the process and evaded my questions when I asked about the budget.

We have effectively spent a long time going full-circle whereby we have no option but to row back to our original brief to the architect/project manager to simply renovate the house to a basic standard within the existing floorplan, which, as I said, was what we ourselves initially thought realistic; it was the architect who developed plans that would always be out of budget and never discussed budgetary implications until this very late stage.

At this point, we're considering all options including walking away.

Sydthebeat: thanks for the support, I think you're right - at this scale of work, I cannot accept how the process has gone as our fault.

DOCARCH

@sarkozy...when selecting your architect did you check references/speak with previous clients? Does your architect have a track record in the scale/type of work s/he undertook for you?

sarkozy

Yeah, we did.

jonniebgood1

sydthebeat wrote: »

That's bollox.

Our previous disagreement should not colour your judgement Syd- To early in the new year for that IMO.

sydthebeat wrote: »

The architect is almost always the design team leader and as such should either have a knowledgeable grasp of the costs of their design, or should include such in their design costs. The is NO prerequisite for any client at design stage to employ a QS seriously to keep the architects designs in check, especially at this level of domestic project.

I agree- A knowledgeable grasp is not the same as costing from a QS.

sydthebeat wrote: »

An architect design anything 110% over budget shows a distinct lack of professIonalism and ability. You Commissioned a build of a certain budget and you've been handed a product that is
proven over that Budget.

It is common for projects without QS costings to not come in exactly on budget. To deny that this is common is tantamount to denial of reality... and shows a lack of knowledge of the building trade.

sydthebeat wrote: »

Personally i would be fuming and demand a redesign at no extra cost and an apology for the sacrific of time on your part.

Either that or cut your losses and wash your hands.

Unhelpful hyperbole in the extreme- perhaps the OP should insist on the Architect building the part that cost extra in person!

Did you even read the OP???


@ sarkozy -I would add that my intention for OP was to give a view based on knowledge of the roles being discussed as a balance to some of the other comments that suggested the OP's predicament was unusual and unacceptable. In fact trying to keep within a budget is probably project patrons biggest difficulty as anyone attempting a self- build will know. Your OP suggests that the Architect informed you that the proposal may be over budget before it went to tender. This allowed I presume for further revision to get within budget and as per my previous points this is not extraordinary. On the face of it I re-emphasise that this seems like a normal situation where all parties are trying to get the most out of the design process with the ultimate benificiary of this being you. During the design if extra items were added they were naturally going to cost extra and effect the budget. The Architect informed you of this at pre-tender stage- Is your main problem that you think you should have been informed earlier?
Also why were the tenders sent out when all parties knew they were proposing more than the budget? It clear in the OP that the Architect identifies this before the tenders were sent out. If proposal was not going to be within budget it was folly getting them priced and blame for this is shared (if you see this as going against you or attributing 'fault' as per your previous comment that is fair enough- fault or blame is most likely not resting only on one persons shoulders in this situation) .
How long was the design process?

sarkozy

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Our previous disagreement should not colour your judgement Syd- To early in the new year for that IMO.


I agree- A knowledgeable grasp is not the same as costing from a QS.


It is common for projects without QS costings to not come in exactly on budget. To deny that this is common is tantamount to denial of reality... and shows a lack of knowledge of the building trade.



Unhelpful hyperbole in the extreme- perhaps the OP should insist on the Architect building the part that cost extra in person!

Did you even read the OP???


@ sarkozy -I would add that my intention for OP was to give a view based on knowledge of the roles being discussed as a balance to some of the other comments that suggested the OP's predicament was unusual and unacceptable. In fact trying to keep within a budget is probably project patrons biggest difficulty as anyone attempting a self- build will know. Your OP suggests that the Architect informed you that the proposal may be over budget before it went to tender. This allowed I presume for further revision to get within budget and as per my previous points this is not extraordinary. On the face of it I re-emphasise that this seems like a normal situation where all parties are trying to get the most out of the design process with the ultimate benificiary of this being you. During the design if extra items were added they were naturally going to cost extra and effect the budget. The Architect informed you of this at pre-tender stage- Is your main problem that you think you should have been informed earlier?
Also why were the tenders sent out when all parties knew they were proposing more than the budget? It clear in the OP that the Architect identifies this before the tenders were sent out. If proposal was not going to be within budget it was folly getting them priced and blame for this is shared (if you see this as going against you or attributing 'fault' as per your previous comment that is fair enough- fault or blame is most likely not resting only on one persons shoulders in this situation) .
How long was the design process?

The design process took in total 12 months to tender due to various delays and time taken to consider proposals.

Indication by the architect of a budget overrun came after 10 months and at least 8 months after proposals were presented, only one of which (refurbishment within the existing building as contained in the original brief) was ever affordable.

I'm not going into reasons for delays or responsibility for them as I'm not disputing them.

archtech

sarkozy wrote: »

Indication by the architect of a budget overrun came after 10 months and at least 8 months after proposals were presented, only one of which (refurbishment within the existing building as contained in the original brief) was ever affordable.

So your architect did present you with a proposal which was affordable and within your brief's budget for your consideration?

sydthebeat

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

It is common for projects without QS costings to not come in exactly on budget. To deny that this is common is tantamount to denial of reality... and shows a lack of knowledge of the building trade.

A design Coming in at over 100% more than the specified budget is "denial of reality", or perhaps it is with the parameters of what you call "exactly on budget"

On this point I'm afraid your defense is of the indefensible.

sydthebeat

archtech wrote: »

So your architect did present you with a proposal which was affordable and within your brief's budget for your consideration?

It's my reading that the op had discovered that this renovation option would be within budget only after costs came in.

It still doesn't excuse the architect for being so far out with the tendeted design without communication of this extra sufficiently to the client.

sarkozy

archtech wrote: »

So your architect did present you with a proposal which was affordable and within your brief's budget for your consideration?

No. We were told that an extension and basic works to the house would be affordable. We were pleasantly surprised. Proposals were made and developed on that basis. Budgets were not discussed on the volition of the architect. When I asked, after those months, answers were evasive and non-specific.

I'll repeat that we entered into the process assuming some overspend to be curtailed and trusted the architect's cost projection and ability to contain the budget, which we stressed.

We were therefore shocked on hearing a 100%+ tender price.

So, am I still responsible for this?

sydthebeat

sarkozy wrote: »

So, am I still responsible for this?

Every one likes to get the design of their dreams, or at least everything on their wish list.
So if it was you who was consistently adding to that wish list against the advise of the architect then i would say yes you are responsible for the over run.

However if you had been advised by the architect that all the design proposals up to and including the tendered design were more or less around the budget mark, our at least affordable with some minor alterations or specification changes, then it is most certainly the responsibility of the designer.

At best the resultant impasse could be put down to inexperience of the architect, at worse its unprofessional.

jonniebgood1

sydthebeat wrote: »

A design Coming in at over 100% more than the specified budget is "denial of reality", or perhaps it is with the parameters of what you call "exactly on budget"

On this point I'm afraid your defense is of the indefensible.

Your initial point:

Originally Posted by sydthebeat View Post

An architect design anything 110% over budget shows a distinct lack of professIonalism and ability. You Commissioned a build of a certain budget and you've been handed a product that is
proven over that Budget.

110% over budget
or
100% more than budget
or
10% more than budget (which would be 110%)

You need to be more clear. I re-read your initial angry post and am not sure what you mean by 110% over budget. Can you clarify...

jonniebgood1

sydthebeat wrote: »

Every one likes to get the design of their dreams, or at least everything on their wish list.
So if it was you who was consistently adding to that wish list against the advise of the architect then i would say yes you are responsible for the over run.

However if you had been advised by the architect that all the design proposals up to and including the tendered design were more or less around the budget mark, our at least affordable with some minor alterations or specification changes, then it is most certainly the responsibility of the designer.

At best the resultant impasse could be put down to inexperience of the architect, at worse its unprofessional.

sydthebeat wrote: »

Personally i would be fuming and demand a redesign at no extra cost and an apology for the sacrific of time on your part.

Well which is it???

sydthebeat

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Your initial point:

110% over budget
or
100% more than budget
or
10% more than budget (which would be 110%)

You need to be more clear. I re-read your initial angry post and am not sure what you mean by 110% over budget. Can you clarify...

Perhaps YOU should read the whole thread again.

There is no ambiguity in what i posted.

sydthebeat

Jonnie are you under the impression that we are arguing here over a tender price that was 10% over budget?

DOCARCH

sydthebeat wrote: »

At best the resultant impasse could be put down to inexperience of the architect...

That's what I was alluding to in my post above...sounds like it to me!

I have encountered jobs with architects who have vast amounts of experience...but...very little experience or knowledge how to deal with small scale domestic works and it can be a disaster.

BryanF

Op have you arranged to meet the architect and to see what the works will be cutback to suit your budget?

sydthebeat

DOCARCH wrote: »

That's what I was alluding to in my post above...sounds like it to me!

I have encountered jobs with architects who have vast amounts of experience...but...very little experience or knowledge how to deal with small scale domestic works and it can be a disaster.

I had the same in mind posting the above but then i thought that the only level of projects that have been any way frequent over the last five years has been domestic extensions.
I still don't accept that a designer cannot have a working knowledge of their own design costs when dealing with this level of project. Yes I agree that renovation costs can be very hard to aggregate but a professional archItect should still be able to pick up a phone to a friendly builder to get approximate for what they
specify.
It may be inexperience but still not excusable.

kkelliher

sydthebeat wrote: »

I had the same in mind posting the above but then i thought that the only level of projects that have been any way frequent over the last five years has been domestic extensions.
I still don't accept that a designer cannot have a working knowledge of their own design costs when dealing with this level of project. Yes I agree that renovation costs can be very hard to aggregate but a professional archItect should still be able to pick up a phone to a friendly builder to get approximate for what they
specify.
It may be inexperience but still not excusable.

Syd not excusable but from what i see on the ground it appears to be a growing trend. The competitive nature of this market has made cost variances from job to job higher than previous and add in the fact that most clients now want to get the wow factor for a tight budget, and also that so many architects have gone out on their own in the last 5 years, its clear that their is a massive cost education gap for alot (but not all as some are very good at cost) of architects and designers in general. I dont believe a qs should not be used on small projects as it will save you time effort and money throughout the process irrespective of size of project

sydthebeat

kkelliher wrote: »

Syd not excusable but from what i see on the ground it appears to be a growing trend. The competitive nature of this market has made cost variances from job to job higher than previous and add in the fact that most clients now want to get the wow factor for a tight budget, and also that so many architects have gone out on their own in the last 5 years, its clear that their is a massive cost education gap for alot (but not all as some are very good at cost) of architects and designers in general. I dont believe a qs should not be used on small projects as it will save you time effort and money throughout the process irrespective of size of project

I absolutely agree that a qs should be used at this level of project. Especially where renovation works to existing are included.

Whether the architect is newly out on their own, or not up to speed with costing their designs etc is still no excuse in my ion and should not be accepted. The clienst time should not be used as school day for the architect.

I wouldn't have a problem with an architect having a freeboard of say 50% on a specification as in most cases the discrepancy can be designed out, or spruced up, to suit. Like i said earlier unknowns can be approximated and all it takes is phone calls.

If there is so much unknowns on a renovation that the architect is not confident then that is understandable once the architect of up front with the client and says look I've no idea what price this specification will come in at. Honesty counts for a lot on these situations.
But that's not has happened here according to the op. Up to the tender design being let out the op was still under the impression that the design would be achievable. 110% over budget is most certainly not achievable.