Payment for saying Catholic Mass

Merkin

Hi all, I'm not sure if this is the right thread so please feel free to move if not appropriate here! My folks are celebrating a big wedding anniversary soon and we're having a family Mass for them followed by a party. What is the standard gift of money/fee to give to a priest who conducts a Mass like this? We don't actually know the priest and the Mass will be in Dublin. Would €50 be enough or should we be giving €100? Am really not sure so if someone could shed some light on it I'd appreciate it! Cheers

Kristopherus

Ring the presbytory of that church. Most places have a standard minimum charge nowadays.

neemish

€50 is plenty and would be considered generous - maybe put it in a thank you card

Safehands

Kristopherus wrote: »

Ring the presbytory of that church. Most places have a standard minimum charge nowadays.

Kind of makes the priest saying mass a bit like calling out a plumber, €60 minimum charge. Christianity? I'm not sure! Catholicism definitely!

Manach

Safehands wrote: »

Kind of makes the priest saying mass a bit like calling out a plumber, €60 minimum charge. Christianity? I'm not sure! Catholicism definitely!

Unlike the State which can mandate payment, clergy are living on near dole level payments - so that type of dedication is definitely Catholic.

MouseTail

Its usual to tip the alter servers also.

Safehands

Manach wrote: »

Unlike the State which can mandate payment, clergy are living on near dole level payments - so that type of dedication is definitely Catholic.

It strikes me that a lot of clergy are similar to a waiter in a top restaurant, earning the minimum wage, but receiving substantial tips. They get paid a gratuity for Christenings, funerals, weddings and for dedicating a mass to the deceased. Some may donate these payments to their church, but I honestly doubt that happens all the time. I don't think these payments are subject to tax either because they are gifts or contributions. So a priest who does 2 weddings, 2 funerals 2 Christenings and says 2 months mind masses could earn an extra €500-€600 per week quite easily. Not bad money!

jimd2

Safehands wrote: »

It strikes me that a lot of clergy are similar to a waiter in a top restaurant, earning the minimum wage, but receiving substantial tips. They get paid a gratuity for Christenings, funerals, weddings and for dedicating a mass to the deceased. Some may donate these payments to their church, but I honestly doubt that happens all the time. I don't think these payments are subject to tax either because they are gifts or contributions. So a priest who does 2 weddings, 2 funerals 2 Christenings and says 2 months mind masses could earn an extra €500-€600 per week quite easily. Not bad money!

Are you for real? I have to assume that you are being serious and not sh!t stirring. I don't know of any priest bringing that sort of money in any week and money taken goes to the church.

If it is such a lucrative profession then why is no one signing up?

jimd2

Merkin wrote: »

Hi all, I'm not sure if this is the right thread so please feel free to move if not appropriate here! My folks are celebrating a big wedding anniversary soon and we're having a family Mass for them followed by a party. What is the standard gift of money/fee to give to a priest who conducts a Mass like this? We don't actually know the priest and the Mass will be in Dublin. Would €50 be enough or should we be giving €100? Am really not sure so if someone could shed some light on it I'd appreciate it! Cheers

I would be up front and ask the priest what he would expect. If he says whatever you think then I would go with the €50 or maybe €60 if he has to travel in a card. There probably won't be any altar boys in a one off mass like that.

Safehands

jimd2 wrote: »

Are you for real? I have to assume that you are being serious and not sh!t stirring. I don't know of any priest bringing that sort of money in any week and money taken goes to the church.

If it is such a lucrative profession then why is no one signing up?

Hi Jim. Yes I am for real. Unless the people I know are extra generous, any wedding I have been involved with has paid the priest a minimum of €200. Any Christening has earned at least €50 per child. Nobody asks a priest to say a mass for a month's mind for less than €50. Maybe some of these payments go to the church, but frankly as I said, I doubt it.
As for people signing up, well, not everybody could do it. It is a lonely, sad life.

Manach

The Cleric is the main human face of the Church. The auxillary supports to have a church running involve heating, lighting, insurance, cleaning etc. An analogy of a waiter running all of this and being of course generiously paid seems to be false.

Merkin

jimd2 wrote: »

I would be up front and ask the priest what he would expect. If he says whatever you think then I would go with the €50 or maybe €60 if he has to travel in a card. There probably won't be any altar boys in a one off mass like that.

Actually gave 100 as wasn't entirely sure and he said a lovely Mass so well worth it!

robp

Safehands wrote: »

It strikes me that a lot of clergy are similar to a waiter in a top restaurant, earning the minimum wage, but receiving substantial tips. They get paid a gratuity for Christenings, funerals, weddings and for dedicating a mass to the deceased. Some may donate these payments to their church, but I honestly doubt that happens all the time. I don't think these payments are subject to tax either because they are gifts or contributions. So a priest who does 2 weddings, 2 funerals 2 Christenings and says 2 months mind masses could earn an extra €500-€600 per week quite easily. Not bad money!

100% conjecture, unless you know if that is a realistic scenario and expenses of running a church. For the amount of time and professionalism that goes into a wedding 50 Euro seem very cheap if that is the going rate.

Its worth noting Humanist Association of Ireland charges €450 for marriages.

jimd2

Safehands wrote: »

Hi Jim. Yes I am for real. Unless the people I know are extra generous, any wedding I have been involved with has paid the priest a minimum of €200. Any Christening has earned at least €50 per child. Nobody asks a priest to say a mass for a month's mind for less than €50. Maybe some of these payments go to the church, but frankly as I said, I doubt it.
As for people signing up, well, not everybody could do it. It is a lonely, sad life.

Yes stagehands sadly (for you) you are for real. They say that truth is stranger than fiction but your assertion that priests are making a financial killing is a first even for this website.

Safehands

Manach wrote: »

The Cleric is the main human face of the Church. The auxillary supports to have a church running involve heating, lighting, insurance, cleaning etc. An analogy of a waiter running all of this and being of course generiously paid seems to be false.

Really? Does a restaurant not have heating, insurance, lighting and cleaning expenses also?

Manach

Safehands wrote: »

Really? Does a restaurant not have heating, insurance, lighting and cleaning expenses also?

It seems your lack of knowledge not only extends to the Church. Your analogy had a waiter earning such a fine living, and I'm surprised by this logic there are no university courses on this, it is the owner that is responsible for the general upkeep of the premises. The takings must also cover the free-rider issue where payment is waived in cases of genuine poverty. Hence what strikes you might be real world expenses in operating an institution that benefits the community at large and not a for-profit free market enterprise.

Greenmachine

robp wrote: »

100% conjecture, unless you know if that is a realistic scenario and expenses of running a church. For the amount of time and professionalism that goes into a wedding 50 Euro seem very cheap if that is the going rate.

Its worth noting Humanist Association of Ireland charges €450 for marriages.

Never heard of these. Who are they.

Safehands

Manach wrote: »

It seems your lack of knowledge not only extends to the Church. Your analogy had a waiter earning such a fine living, and I'm surprised by this logic there are no university courses on this, it is the owner that is responsible for the general upkeep of the premises. The takings must also cover the free-rider issue where payment is waived in cases of genuine poverty. Hence what strikes you might be real world expenses in operating an institution that benefits the community at large and not a for-profit free market enterprise.

I agree. The owner, (the church) are responsible for expenses. Quite often the church will have a set fee for the use of their premises at a wedding and this is only right and proper. The priest, who officiates, will then be given a donation for himself. Of course this is up to the couple. Some churches do not charge for using their facilities to members of the parish, so the couple may just make a donation to the church and to the priest. If the couple are outside the parish there is usually a charge for using the church. This is absolutely acceptable. But the priest will also get a donation for himself.
Do you think that all of the donations made to priests for funerals, christenings, weddings, etc are given back to the church?

Manach

And what exact part of keeping an undetermined portion of this make it Unchristian or contributes to it being of such a sum of being"not bad money"?

Safehands

Manach wrote: »

And what exact part of keeping an undetermined portion of this make it Unchristian or contributes to it being of such a sum of being"not bad money"?

My questioning the Christian aspect relates to having a set fee for saying a mass. Voluntary, unsolicited donations are one thing but having a set fee for saying a mass, knowing what a mass represents, is a practice that I would question.

robp

Greenmachine wrote: »

Never heard of these. Who are they.

The Humanist Association of Ireland offers a secular humanist marriage ceremony conducted by their solemnisers. They charge €450, so they make a profit from it. As a private organisation I guess they are entitled too if they do so please. This set up occurs elsewhere in Europe too.

Greenmachine

robp wrote: »

The Humanist Association of Ireland offers a secular humanist marriage ceremony conducted by their solemnisers. They charge €450, so they make a profit from it. As a private organisation I guess they are entitled too if they do so please. This set up occurs elsewhere in Europe too.

Is this what a civil ceremony is or is something else. Always thought these were done in state run offices.

Benny_Cake

Greenmachine wrote: »

Is this what a civil ceremony is or is something else. Always thought these were done in state run offices.

Essentially, HAI-accredited celebrants function as a solemniser for the purposes of weddings, just as religious ministers do.

robp

Greenmachine wrote: »

Is this what a civil ceremony is or is something else. Always thought these were done in state run offices.

Yes a civil marriage. They typically are in state offices but they don't have to be. The numbers who have done it the way I mention are very small.

Manach

Safehands wrote: »

My questioning the Christian aspect relates to having a set fee for saying a mass. Voluntary, unsolicited donations are one thing but having a set fee for saying a mass, knowing what a mass represents, is a practice that I would question.

On that point, that is a reasonable objection. Saying that, a set fee at least allows a ballpark figure for what is a reasonable voluntary donation.

neemish

Safehands wrote: »

It strikes me that a lot of clergy are similar to a waiter in a top restaurant, earning the minimum wage, but receiving substantial tips. They get paid a gratuity for Christenings, funerals, weddings and for dedicating a mass to the deceased. Some may donate these payments to their church, but I honestly doubt that happens all the time. I don't think these payments are subject to tax either because they are gifts or contributions. So a priest who does 2 weddings, 2 funerals 2 Christenings and says 2 months mind masses could earn an extra €500-€600 per week quite easily. Not bad money!

Are you for real???
Firstly, a priest would very rarely receive a donation from every Mass/service they are involved in. Of six baptisms at a weekend, he MIGHT get €20 from two couples!


Secondly, he doesn't get to keep all the money. It is divided three ways - one half to the priest, one quarter to the Diocese and one quarter to the Parish. So for your €600 he keeps €300

Re: Mass stipends, a priest can keep ONE stipend per Mass. So if there are four/five names read at a weekend Mass, the priest keeps one offering and the rest is donated to charity.


And yes, priests are audited EVERY year. They are expected to keep records and submit tax returns the same as the rest of the country

Now, I live in reality and whether this all happens in 100% of cases, I don't know. But there is a new charity law, either recently passed or recently enacted and every priest in the country will soon be asked to account for every penny he receives. Want to make sure your priest is playing by the rules? Pay by cheque!

Safehands

neemish wrote: »

Are you for real???
Firstly, a priest would very rarely receive a donation from every Mass/service they are involved in. Of six baptisms at a weekend, he MIGHT get €20 from two couples!

Now, I live in reality and whether this all happens in 100% of cases, I don't know. But there is a new charity law, either recently passed or recently enacted and every priest in the country will soon be asked to account for every penny he receives. Want to make sure your priest is playing by the rules? Pay by cheque!

I think they can earn about €15000 tax free, as a gift. I don't think they should not accept these gifts. A good priest can make a huge difference to a wedding or to a funeral. So they deserve what they get. It is nice money though. I would never dream of giving him a cheque. That would be against the spirit of giving a gift. They do sometimes get given vouchers as well, especially if they are well known to the donors. I'm sure it is very tempting to keep most of the money donated, especially if the couple pay for the church as well.
Back to the waiter analogy, do they pay tax on what they receive as tips??? Should they, I don't really think so. Its business after all, same with the priest.

neemish

I think the discussion here is around is it a gift or an expected payment of a certain amount? i absolutely agree that the celebrant can make all the difference to a Ceremony. But. as with the waiter, what do you do if you don't like the service or you feel the priest didn't do his job?

If it is a gift, give cash/voucher. If the priest expects x amount??? Then I 'd go with paying by cheque I'm afraid. Why should he be above the law?

Re : do they pay tax? You answered your own question. They are allowed to keep so much tax free, the rest is taxed.

robp

Safehands wrote: »

I think they can earn about €15000 tax free, as a gift. I don't think they should not accept these gifts. A good priest can make a huge difference to a wedding or to a funeral. So they deserve what they get. It is nice money though. I would never dream of giving him a cheque. That would be against the spirit of giving a gift. They do sometimes get given vouchers as well, especially if they are well known to the donors. I'm sure it is very tempting to keep most of the money donated, especially if the couple pay for the church as well.
Back to the waiter analogy, do they pay tax on what they receive as tips??? Should they, I don't really think so. Its business after all, same with the priest.

I'd have no problem paying by cheque. I don't see any issue with that.

Safehands

neemish wrote: »

I think the discussion here is around is it a gift or an expected payment of a certain amount? i absolutely agree that the celebrant can make all the difference to a Ceremony. But. as with the waiter, what do you do if you don't like the service or you feel the priest didn't do his job?

If it is a gift, give cash/voucher. If the priest expects x amount??? Then I 'd go with paying by cheque I'm afraid. Why should he be above the law?

I think my discomfort with this whole issue is the association of Mass or Baptism with money. While I understand that virtually everything these days has a monetary value, should there not be limits? I mean, if I have a loved one whose anniversary occurs, should I not feel comfortable going to a priest and asking him to say a mass for that person, at a regular time, without having to worry about what that will cost? We are all caught up in the material world, but the sacraments are the lifeblood of the church and I am quite sure that Christ would not like to think that partaking in them is, at times, becoming an expensive thing to do.

robp

Safehands wrote: »

I think my discomfort with this whole issue is the association of Mass or Baptism with money. While I understand that virtually everything these days has a monetary value, should there not be limits? I mean, if I have a loved one whose anniversary occurs, should I not feel comfortable going to a priest and asking him to say a mass for that person, at a regular time, without having to worry about what that will cost? We are all caught up in the material world, but the sacraments are the lifeblood of the church and I am quite sure that Christ would not like to think that partaking in them is, at times, becoming an expensive thing to do.

You are right that we should not discourage availing of the sacraments by burdensome fees. Yet I feel the most important sacrament is the Holy Eucharist. That is free. Confession is also free.

Baptism, Marriage and the sacrament of the sick occurs once in your life so a donation is not a big deal. Regards celebrating a mass for someone, it is a lovely gesture but not in anyway essential.

Safehands

robp wrote: »

You are right that we should not discourage availing of the sacraments by burdensome fees. Yet I feel the most important sacrament is the Holy Eucharist. That is free. Confession is also free.

When I have a problem with an issue relating to religion or Christianity, I ask myself the question "What do I think Christ would say about this". When he was on Earth, he went around healing people and helping with the ordinary day to day lives of simple folk. The only reward he asked for was that the people believed in him. He did not have an expensive lifestyle. Could you imagine how wealthy he would be if he applied our values to his actions? Of course, that is a ridiculous thought. His life was dedicated to showing people how they should live. He didn't charge a penny for his services.

I think we may have lost our way a little bit.

martinedwards

As a prod, I'm JUST a little suprised by this thread.

we were married in the church that my wife attended.

no charge.

the organist and choir turned out (demanded to actually!) all for free.

later, our 4 kids were baptised in the church we now attend.

over the years, that was 4 different clergy and never a red cent was asked for or was paid.

Safehands

martinedwards wrote: »

As a prod, I'm JUST a little suprised by this thread.

we were married in the church that my wife attended.

no charge.

the organist and choir turned out (demanded to actually!) all for free.

later, our 4 kids were baptised in the church we now attend.

over the years, that was 4 different clergy and never a red cent was asked for or was paid.

Actually, that does not surprise me. I think that Christianity means more to the the general Church of Ireland folk than the RC's. We are more concerned with being good Catholics.

georgieporgy

Most weddings attract a bit of a crowd. Even if well behaved in church, they generally leave a bit of a mess and someone has to cleanup after them.

would it be reasonable to ask the wedding party to leave the place as they found it or make a small donation to pay someone to do it for them?

Safehands

georgieporgy wrote: »

Most weddings attract a bit of a crowd. Even if well behaved in church, they generally leave a bit of a mess and someone has to cleanup after them.

would it be reasonable to ask the wedding party to leave the place as they found it or make a small donation to pay someone to do it for them?

Is that just Catholics or do Church of Ire people also leave a mess?

Benny_Cake

Safehands wrote: »

Is that just Catholics or do Church of Ire people also leave a mess?

Regarding weddings, from this article it would appear that neither the Catholic Church or the Church of Ireland have a set fee or recommended donation:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/wedding-season-throws-up-priests-pay-dilemma-26761176.html

I feel that if a couple can make a donation, then they should. If they can't afford a donation, and they are regularly attending services at the church in question, then it would be wrong to prevent them from being married for financial reasons.

J C

martinedwards wrote: »

As a prod, I'm JUST a little suprised by this thread.

we were married in the church that my wife attended.

no charge.

the organist and choir turned out (demanded to actually!) all for free.

later, our 4 kids were baptised in the church we now attend.

over the years, that was 4 different clergy and never a red cent was asked for or was paid.

... do you never 'tip' ... even for a good service???:)

martinedwards

tip?

no

tithe?

yup!

neemish

I'd love to see the situation completely change so that stipends are not necessary at all.

There are two collections at every Mass -
Weekly planned giving - this is the box of envelopes that people get each year. This is literally what keeps a Church open - heat, light, insurance, maintenance, wages for parish staff, general costs.

The collection for the priests of the parish and the sick and retired priests of the Diocese.

So in an ideal world, parishioners would contribute to both these funds according to their means (NOT whatever change is at the bottom of the bag!!)

And then they are entitled to have Masses offered, baptisms, funerals etc celebrated.

But in this scenario the collections for priests would have to dramatically increase.


The other problem is that we don't want a situation like the States - if you ring for a priest, the First Question is how much did you contribute last year. That's why I say people contribute according to their means.

And of course, what happens with people who never darken the door except for special occasions?

J C

martinedwards wrote: »

tip?

no

tithe?

yup!

Martin.
It was some light humour.

Anyway, all churches need to be funded in order to pay their bills.

How the money is collected may vary ... but it is voluntary in Ireland (other than a short period in Irish History when tithes were collected under force of law for the Established Church) from everybody irrespective of denomination.

In parts of Germany it isn't voluntary ... there is a 'church tax' collected as part of the tax system - and the tax collected goes to whatever church you nominate ... and if you can't think of one ... the state keeps it.

Safehands

J C wrote: »

Anyway, all churches need to be funded in order to pay their bills.

How the money is collected may vary ... but it is voluntary in Ireland (other than a short period in Irish History when tithes were collected under force of law for the Established Church) from everybody irrespective of denomination. In parts of Germany it isn't voluntary ... there is a 'church tax' collected as part of the tax system - and the tax collected goes to whatever church you nominate ... and if you can't think of one ... the state keeps it.

Wouldn't our government love that one!
How much money can a church have before they have enough? There is no doubt that the Irish RC church is a very wealthy organisation, although it seems to be divided into several different, semi independent orders, some of whom seem to be quite hard up. Others are extremely wealthy, although they never shout it from the rooftops. I often wonder do the wealthy orders support the not so wealthy ones.

robp

Safehands wrote: »

Wouldn't our government love that one!
How much money can a church have before they have enough? There is no doubt that the Irish RC church is a very wealthy organisation, although it seems to be divided into several different, semi independent orders, some of whom seem to be quite hard up. Others are extremely wealthy, although they never shout it from the rooftops. I often wonder do the wealthy orders support the not so wealthy ones.

People often compare the Irish and German systems. One thing I will say that is rarely said is that in Germany they also collect in baskets during mass like Ireland. They take in money from more angles then Ireland but they provide a huge amount of services. The German system is extremely fair in that the rich pay a lot and the poor pay very little but it has the flaw of financially incentivizing abandonment of religion.

recedite

Greenmachine wrote: »

Is this what a civil ceremony is or is something else. Always thought these were done in state run offices.

In the civil ceremonies most people get, the marriage takes place in a registry office, and a civil servant presides over it.
But more recently, if you want a non-church wedding out of office hours, and/or in another location, there is now an option to pay extra to the registrar so that they will come to the wedding and not the other way round.
Or you can even get a freelancer from the official list of solemnisers, for a different feeling . They will obviously charge for their services. In order to get on the list, the solemniser must claim some sort of quasi-religious staus; so for example a witch could be on it, but not an atheist. Humanist Association of Ireland are apparently doing a good trade, much to the annoyance of Atheist Ireland.
http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Getting_Married.aspx

neemish wrote: »

Firstly, a priest would very rarely receive a donation from every Mass/service they are involved in....Secondly, he doesn't get to keep all the money. It is divided three ways - one half to the priest, one quarter to the Diocese and one quarter to the Parish...
Want to make sure your priest is playing by the rules? Pay by cheque!

The Bishop is taking a nice cut there. Mr. 25%
How many priests does a bishop usually have in his diocese?
Cheque is a good idea, but brown envelope is still the norm.

recedite

robp wrote: »

The German system is extremely fair in that the rich pay a lot and the poor pay very little but it has the flaw of financially incentivizing abandonment of religion.

I'm curious about the German church tax. Do you live over there?
My question is, if you are not registered to any church, do you still pay over the tax to the state anyway? It seems that a portion of a religious person's income tax is merely diverted from the state to their chosen religion. So there is no actual financial advantage to the person if they abandon or de-register from the church?

mdebets

recedite wrote: »

I'm curious about the German church tax. Do you live over there?
My question is, if you are not registered to any church, do you still pay over the tax to the state anyway? It seems that a portion of a religious person's income tax is merely diverted from the state to their chosen religion. So there is no actual financial advantage to the person if they abandon or de-register from the church?

Not living in Germany, but being from there, I can answer your question.
You only pay church tax, if you are registered to a church that collects the church tax. For a church to be able to do this, the church has to be registered as a 'Körperschaften des öffentlichen Rechts', but not all churches that are registered as such are actually collecting church tax.
The church tax is then collected by the revenue and passed on the different churches (minus a processing fee). If you are not a member of any church or a member of the church that is not registered or opted out of the church tax, you don't pay it. However, if you pay the church tax, you can deduct it from your income for the purpose of income tax calculation, so you will pay less income tax when you pay church tax (but the reduction in income tax is lower than the church tax). So there is a financial incentive to leave the church.

Church tax is actually a misnomer. It should actually be religious tax as Jewish congregations have to pay it as well and some Muslim congregations as well as some Humanist assemblies would be eligible, but choose to opt out.

recedite

Interesting. It works in the same way as the "voluntary" contribution to schools here. It gets paid out of your pre-tax gross income. So if you were going to donate the money anyway, it is a very tax efficient way of doing so. But it still costs you.

lmaopml

recedite wrote: »

Interesting. It works in the same way as the "voluntary" contribution to schools here. It gets paid out of your pre-tax gross income. So if you were going to donate the money anyway, it is a very tax efficient way of doing so. But it still costs you.

Well giving in general will cost you, that's the way of things.

Some people pay a tithe, some don't, some donate, and others don't, some expect, and others don't - some don't let their left hand know what their right hand is doing, and some watch not only their own hands but also what everybody else does too - Que sera sera...

If people want to give they do, and some who can't afford it do anyway, and disappear as quick they are the ones who don't count cost in euros, if others don't they just don't and that's it.

The world is full of different people who 'give' many things to many different things that are important to them.

As far as paying for a 'ceremony' in Church is concerned, I'm happy enough to say thanks to those who voluntarily clean, paint and decorate, and donate their own time for the upkeep of my parish Church - I know the Priest would do it for nothing, even for those who can afford more than I can - but if I'm spending on an occasion then giving a donation for the Parish is part of being involved in that community that opens the Church every week. I've no problem giving to that community who do that. None.

verbumdei

Safehands wrote: »

Kind of makes the priest saying mass a bit like calling out a plumber, €60 minimum charge. Christianity? I'm not sure! Catholicism definitely!

Ok I know dozens of Priests who would never ask for money to say a Mass.

lmaopml

verbumdei wrote: »

Ok I know dozens of Priests who would never ask for money to say a Mass.

I don't personally know, but know of very many servants of Christ who are at this very moment living their lives in war torn countries, who are amazing people, putting their lives on the line every single day, and also using any means possible to help other people, and not counting the cost, just trying to make a difference.

Long may they live.

brooke 2

martinedwards wrote: »

As a prod, I'm JUST a little suprised by this thread.

we were married in the church that my wife attended.

no charge.

the organist and choir turned out (demanded to actually!) all for free.

later, our 4 kids were baptised in the church we now attend.

over the years, that was 4 different clergy and never a red cent was asked for or was paid.

Reminds me of an occasion when some Presbyterian neighbours
of ours accompanied us to Xmas Eve Mass. Afterwards, when
asked what they thought of it, the husband replied that it was very
expensive!