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cassette removal

  • 28-10-2013 04:42PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭


    I was hoping to change 2 cassettes today, fit my ice tyres onto some wheels and clean both bikes.
    An hour later...
    I can't get the first old cassette off (it's been on the bike since 2006).
    Watched several youtube vids and am wondering is it because I'm not strong enough or am I doing something wrong?

    My right hand (holding lockring) is pushing down to the right
    My left hand (holding chainwhip) is pushing down to the left

    Buy the tools and do it yourself, much cheaper than taking it to a bike shop - ha.

    IMG_2132_zps8abe520a.jpg
    IMG_2131_zps1a4b6189.jpg


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,234 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    I had the same problem a few weeks ago, I got a hollow bar to slide over the chain whip to give be more leverage and used a 2ft breaker bar for the cassette removal tool. You may want to douse it in WD40 for a while first too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭MB Lacey


    so I am pushing the levers the right way then?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 648 ✭✭✭slap/dash


    is that the wrong direction? looks like your chainwhip is applying torque in the same direction as a chain would when riding?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭clog


    Yes going the right way but all you need to do is hold the chainwhip to stop freehub turning , you are not actively trying to turn it. Lockring will unscrew to the left (anticlockwise).
    ?.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭f1000


    the lock-ring should have a directional arrow on it to lock, just turn the opposite way to unlock


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Keep_Her_Lit


    MB Lacey wrote: »
    so I am pushing the levers the right way then?
    Yes.

    But sometimes a lot of torque is required to "crack" the locknut. I find that I can generate torque most effectively by:
    1. Positioning the wheel so that the drive side is facing my legs, so that the cassette (and hence the removal tools) are close to my body.
    2. Positioning the chain whip bar and the lever of the removal tool so that they form an angle of almost 180 degrees, i.e. both should be parallel to the floor or just slightly higher.

    You can now lean on the two levers good and hard. Place your hands as close to the ends of the levers as you can comfortably manage, since that will maximise the torque. You can "lunge" your weight onto the levers to generate a "spike" of torque. Sometimes the locknut opens quite suddenly, causing the levers to plunge towards the floor. Try to keep your knuckles tucked in, otherwise they can get nicely skinned by the spokes on the way down.

    This still mightn't work, since the amount of downward force you can generate is dependent on your body weight as well as your strength. In that case, you can resort to extra leverage, as suggested above and/or a second person (one per lever) or it may just require a larger person to supply the brute force needed.

    Good luck anyway, hope you get it sorted.
    slap/dash wrote: »
    is that the wrong direction? looks like your chainwhip is applying torque in the same direction as a chain would when riding?
    That is the direction in which the chain whips needs to apply torque. Without it, the lockring remover just causes the cassette to freewheel in the opposite direction.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭MB Lacey


    Thanks all. Ive given up at the moment, I cleaned both bikes to sparkling and its dark and cold out now. Will give it another go next wknd and refer to the advice here then, thanks again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    MB Lacey wrote: »
    Thanks all. Ive given up at the moment, I cleaned both bikes to sparkling and its dark and cold out now. Will give it another go next wknd and refer to the advice here then, thanks again.

    Takes a nice bit of force to remove lockring if on tight, especially for 7 years.

    Have copper grease ready when fitting new cassette.

    Being able to change cassette an essential skill if you do regular cycling


  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 78,483 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    ford2600 wrote: »
    Being able to change cassette an essential skill if you do regular cycling
    This is not an "ability" issue - just the fact it's not been removed in 7 years and is really down to brute force. More leverage is required - can you place some metal pipes over both cassette removal tool and chainwhip to effectievly lengthen them?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    I tend to wrap the chainwhip around the 3rd smallest cog, not the biggest cog, as I find this more effective - cassettes usually have a little bit of play/wobble in them (due to the bearings obviously), and I've found that the entire cassette racks a little less when the chainwhip is closer to the chainring removal tool. It also gives more clearance for your hand, making it less likely to hit the spokes. And wrap some cloths around the handles of the chainwhip and lockring tool as they inevitably feel like they are digging into your hands when there is little or no give.

    Also, you can usually apply more force with your foot instead of your hand. That's obviously challenging though when you have two levers that you are trying to control, but if you could securely jam the chainwhip under/against something and apply your foot to the lockring tool handle then it might help.

    And as a last resort you could hit the lockring tool handle with a hammer. That kind of blow can sometimes break a very tight seal. It requires some care, it's not great for the tool (though a hammer with a nylon head minimises the risk there), it may not be kind to your spokes either, it can deliver a lot of force through to the hand holding the chainwhip, it's basically a bit rural, but there are few opportunities to justifiably wield a hammer in anger so I like to take them where I get them...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    Beasty wrote: »
    This is not an "ability"
    OP is not sure he is turning tools right way.

    Therefore lack of experience would seem to be an issue as well as length of time cassette is on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭MB Lacey


    doozerie wrote: »
    it's basically a bit rural
    ford2600 wrote: »
    OP is not sure She is turning tools right way.

    Therefore lack of experience would seem to be an issue as well as length of time cassette is on.

    I like your phrase 'a bit rural' like what a farmer would do...

    Ford is right, first time cassette remover - all help appreciated.

    I don't have any spare metal pipes to put over the tool handles, doozerie's suggestion of using my foot to push the lever off might work and the suggestion to soak the cassette in wd40 is good.
    Got to sign up for one of those bike maintenance classes Rothar run.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,105 ✭✭✭morana


    MB Lacey wrote: »
    I like your phrase 'a bit rural' like what a farmer would do...

    Ford is right, first time cassette remover - all help appreciated.

    I don't have any spare metal pipes to put over the tool handles, doozerie's suggestion of using my foot to push the lever off might work and the suggestion to soak the cassette in wd40 is good.
    Got to sign up for one of those bike maintenance classes Rothar run.

    if you place the levers at different angles. the chain whip should be further down to the left ( at 3pm) and the removal tool a little more to the right (at 10 to 3) if you know what I mean.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,565 ✭✭✭Gerry T


    I haven't removed a cassette so do correct me if you think this is wrong advise....but.... in a similar situation finding a tight nut if you hit the spanner (chain whip in this case) with a mallet (with force but don't over do it) that tends to "crack" the tight fit and then you can spin the cassette off.
    In your case that would be hitting the end of the chainwhip. and mallet as opposed to a metal hammer


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    Gerry T wrote: »
    In your case that would be hitting the end of the chainwhip. and mallet as opposed to a metal hammer

    No, on no account hit the chainwhip tool with a hammer. Doing so risks damaging the freehub (and hub+spokes). The chainwhip is only there to prevent the cassette from rotating backwards on the freehub as you press on the lockring removal tool (turning the lockring to open it is basically the same as spinning the chain backwards on the bike, it causes the cassette to spin backwards without rotating the wheel). Basically, the chainwhip should always remain stationary, it’s the lockring tool that should rotate, so if hitting anything hit the lockring tool.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    @MB Lacey, Re using your foot, perhaps the simplest way of doing that is to position the chainwhip and lockring tool with an angle of about 45-degrees or less between them. Rest the chainwhip handle on something solid, like a very low wall for example, with the lockring tool “above” it, and press/stomp down on the lockring tool with your foot.

    The main risk I foresee with that is that the lockring tool might pop out while you are applying pressure, and that could damage the teeth on the lockring itself, which would be a serious problem. It would be far safer if you could concoct some means of ensuring the tool stayed in place. Some designs of lockring tool address that problem as they have a hole in the centre so that you can use the rear wheel skewer to hold/lock the tool in place. If you could get hold of one of those tools, and an adjustable spanner to fit it, it would minimise that particular risk (though it introduces another risk, that of the spanner falling off the lockring tool, but I reckon that risk is easier to manage).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,565 ✭✭✭Gerry T


    doozerie wrote: »
    No, on no account hit the chainwhip tool with a hammer. Doing so risks damaging the freehub (and hub+spokes). The chainwhip is only there to prevent the cassette from rotating backwards on the freehub as you press on the lockring removal tool (turning the lockring to open it is basically the same as spinning the chain backwards on the bike, it causes the cassette to spin backwards without rotating the wheel). Basically, the chainwhip should always remain stationary, it’s the lockring tool that should rotate, so if hitting anything hit the lockring tool.

    Sorry, like I said, hadn't removed a cassette before :o , the reason for suggest a "hit" rather than just "pressure" is it's an effective way of loosing tight or seized threads. Now you explain the chain whip is the holding piece and the lockring tool is what moves-then that's what should be hit. This needs to be done properly. A photo shows the rim on what looks like concrete, that would damage the rim. I wouldn't put any force on the rim in removing the cassett if at all possible.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Carpenter


    I was told years ago when a nut is hard to remove try tighten it first and it brakes the hold then try remove it .
    Worth a try :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭cython


    An alternative suggestion to generate leverage that really depends on hand strength (no jokes please lads!) would be to position the tools so that the chain whip is at 12 o clock and the lockring tool at about 1 o clock. Then try to squeeze them together with both hands, giving as much leverage as possible. This gives more control than some of the wider grips/stances, and can actually be incorporated into a brute force approach by positioning the chainwhip wedged against something just anticlockwise of it and trying to exert full force onto the lockring tool, e.g. by standing on it with the chainwhip against a kerb.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭NeedMoreGears


    After seven years the lockring is probably fairly well jammed. You might try some penetrating oil (not WD40) and also extend the lever you have on lockring removal tool. Make sure the tool is properly in position before you use a longer lever; they can sometimes pop out which only leads to lots of blood and swearing (or so I am told*).

    Although I would agree that installing the chain whip on a relatively small gear reduces your chances of skinning your knuckles on the spokes, you'll get more leverage by using one of the physically larger gears and you'll be able to wrap more chain onto the cassette, which should reduce the chances of slippage.



    *by LadyNeedMoreGears


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭MB Lacey


    At this rate I'm getting a hernia just thinking about getting this lockring off and now taking it to the lbs seems very appealing.

    @NMG - Why do you suggest not using wd40 (which I was going to douse it in tonight)..

    The cassette wont be used again, so does it matter what I use to loosen it?
    I'm not up for buying anymore tools/ oils/ greases for this one off job to be honest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭NeedMoreGears


    Penetrating oil is better at penetrating than WD40 - It's lighter and tends to work its way into nooks and crannies a bit easier. WD40 is fine in most cases but if you're stuck*.....

    You could also consider applying some heat to the lockring area. A hair drier or similar applied to the lockring may cause enough expansion to loosen things. Try it when the lockring is warm and again, if necessary, when it cools back down again. Hopefully the expansion/contraction will loosen things up.

    Otherwise it may be a job for the other guy.


    *I'll get me coat......


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Keep_Her_Lit


    MB Lacey wrote: »
    At this rate I'm getting a hernia just thinking about getting this lockring off
    Indeed, the worst case scenarios are getting out of hand at this stage. Most likely, one good grunt and that cassette will be off.

    I've yet to encounter a lockring that was seized, as opposed to just being tight. It is located in an oily place and is less susceptible to the corrosive effects of road salt and other road borne crud.
    and now taking it to the lbs seems very appealing.
    Not yet. Give it another lash.
    The cassette wont be used again, so does it matter what I use to loosen it?
    I'm not up for buying anymore tools/ oils/ greases for this one off job to be honest.
    Any method that doesn't damage the lockring/hub/wheel, your tools or yourself is acceptable. It should come off with the tools you already have.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,055 ✭✭✭Mr.Fred


    Get someone to hold the chain whip for you.

    If you've a long bar(cheat bar) you could put over the handle of the lock ring tool it should give you plenty of leverage to get it off.

    If you are goin to hit the lock ring tool with a hammer do so laterally if you get me or else you'll drive the hub wheel into the ground. A good tap should set it free.

    Last case scenario is get a get a gas torch and heat up the lock ring very carefully though and definitely a last resort. I'd go with brute force and ignorance first though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭MB Lacey


    A few hours after applying WD40 to the lockring I gave the cassette another go last night but it still wasn't shifting.
    Tried the foot against the chainwhip whilst pushing the LRR tool, just managed to scrape the skin from knuckles on both hands (?!).
    Brought the wheel/ cassette to LBS today, told him about the trouble I was having.
    The WD40 must have worked some magic overnight, when I went to show the guy how difficult it was to shift the lockring, it just turned, easy as you like.
    I looked a dope, I didn't care - the cassette was off.
    I have now removed and put on 2 cassettes, it's actually a very easy job.
    Thanks again for all advice.

    If anyone wants any part of a 7yr old shimano HG50 8 speed cassette (in pretty good nick as far as I can see), let me know and it's yours, I have 3 cassettes now and don't need this one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    Something to beware of is penetrating oil, or WD40, getting into the freehub. That could basically wash out some of the lube already in there, and may shorten the lifespan of the freehub. It’s after the fact now, I know, but should you ever have to do so again just be careful how you apply the oil/WD40, the only places you want it to go are between the lockring and the face of the smallest cog, and between the (outer) threads on the lockring and the (inner) threads on the freehub.


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