Importing a project

swarlb

What problems would occur if trying to import/register a car (over 30 years old) which would be a complete restoration project/non runner/dis-assembled).
According to the new rules, the cars has to be presented to the NCT in a roadworthy condition.

Capri

swarlb wrote: »

What problems would occur if trying to import/register a car (over 30 years old) which would be a complete restoration project/non runner/dis-assembled).
According to the new rules, the cars has to be presented to the NCT in a roadworthy condition.

Go to your local NCT centre and ask one of the testers , they'd know more than any receptionist on the other end of the phone.
Another angle is to import it, fix it up and when you've finished , then 'purchase' it from the North and register it

swarlb

Capri wrote: »

Go to your local NCT centre and ask one of the testers , they'd know more than any receptionist on the other end of the phone.
Another angle is to import it, fix it up and when you've finished , then 'purchase' it from the North and register it

Its not coming from the UK. I'll make an enquiry with the NCT.

Kenny Logins

I was told not to present it until it was roadworthy, there may be a late fee, but it won't be a lot.

swarlb

Kenny Logins wrote: »

I was told not to present it until it was roadworthy, there may be a late fee, but it won't be a lot.

This is not something that would be roadworthy in the near future. Is it a case that they note when it was first presented, as in the date. So that they have a record up to the time it would be roadworthy.
This could potentially put people off buying a restoration project.

kev1.3s

I'd imagine that if you were to present it on the trailer it would fail the test and at least then you'd have a record that you presented it and maybe that could be used to avoid a possible late fee in the future. Although with the state of the NCTM network it just might pass!

Capri

Project Porsche ?

corktina

kev1.3s wrote: »

I'd imagine that if you were to present it on the trailer it would fail the test and at least then you'd have a record that you presented it and maybe that could be used to avoid a possible late fee in the future. Although with the state of the NCTM network it just might pass!

It's not really a test. The situation is that if it has a foreign MoT or equivalent, they will accept this as evidence of roadworthiness, otherwise they will inspect it for roadworthiness, this being open to interpretation, but basically is intended to show it is viable vehicle that starts and stops. Thus if it is complete, with the right tester it might well be possible to re-reg the vehicle from a trailer.

swarlb

corktina wrote: »

It's not really a test. The situation is that if it has a foreign MoT or equivalent, they will accept this as evidence of roadworthiness, otherwise they will inspect it for roadworthiness, this being open to interpretation, but basically is intended to show it is viable vehicle that starts and stops. Thus if it is complete, with the right tester it might well be possible to re-reg the vehicle from a trailer.

As I mentioned this is a complete restoration project, as in it's a shell, with no running gear. The majority of parts to complete the car are included.
I enquired with friends in the UK, and whenever they import such a project, all they need to get it registered it for the car to be examined by a recognized 'expert', i.e. a representative from a listed motor club. They can verify that the car is correct according to vin/paperwork etc, and then an age related plate will be issued. After the car is completed obviously an MOT is required, and taxed and so on.

macplaxton

Aye, but in the UK they don't expect it to be registered or inspected until such time as it's ready for the road.

swarlb

macplaxton wrote: »

Aye, but in the UK they don't expect it to be registered or inspected until such time as it's ready for the road.

So, here it seems we do things in reverse !! Seems they obviously did not think that anyone would want to import a 'non running' classic.

Seweryn

swarlb wrote: »

So, here it seems we do things in reverse !! Seems they obviously did not think that anyone would want to import a 'non running' classic.

Yep, same as they did not think that anyone would want to export a car from this country.

corktina

swarlb wrote: »

As I mentioned this is a complete restoration project, as in it's a shell, with no running gear. The majority of parts to complete the car are included.
I enquired with friends in the UK, and whenever they import such a project, all they need to get it registered it for the car to be examined by a recognized 'expert', i.e. a representative from a listed motor club. They can verify that the car is correct according to vin/paperwork etc, and then an age related plate will be issued. After the car is completed obviously an MOT is required, and taxed and so on.

In that case it is a collection of spares and not a Motor Vehicle and does not need to be registered as one until such time as it is (imo)

Seweryn

corktina wrote: »

In that case it is a collection of spares and not a Motor Vehicle and does not need to be registered as one until such time as it is (imo)

OK, but the buyer will be charged penalty fees since the purchase date.

swarlb

corktina wrote: »

In that case it is a collection of spares and not a Motor Vehicle and does not need to be registered as one until such time as it is (imo)

You could say that a brand new car is a 'collection of spares'.
When this 'collection' is finally restored, how do you explain to the NCT that its been in your possession for a number of years prior to them checking it for proper registration. Will there be a charge for unpaid back road tax, a charge for unpaid VRT, and so on.
I'll check with the NCT but they seem to be unable to answer questions that do not appear on their 'frequently asked questions list'.

corktina

no this really is a collection of spares. He has bought a shell and who is to say when the bits he fits to it were bought? It isn't a car in the sense that it is not a Motor Vehicle yet.

bbsrs

corktina wrote: »

no this really is a collection of spares. He has bought a shell and who is to say when the bits he fits to it were bought? It isn't a car in the sense that it is not a Motor Vehicle yet.

In Ireland as far as registration is concerned as long as there is a chassiss it's a vehicle . Not roadworthy but a vehicle in their eyes none the less.

Seweryn

bbsrs wrote: »

In Ireland as far as registration is concerned as long as there is a chassiss it's a vehicle . Not roadworthy but a vehicle in their eyes none the less.

So it looks like there is no sensible, legal and logical option of registering it straight away to avoid penalty fees?

galwaytt

corktina wrote: »

no this really is a collection of spares. He has bought a shell and who is to say when the bits he fits to it were bought? It isn't a car in the sense that it is not a Motor Vehicle yet.

Exactly. A friend of mine went in to SORD his completely disassembled 1923 Model T. He was this he couldn't as it wasn't an actual whole vehicle. He was told he needed to do nothing until it was complete and he then had to present it to a Commissioner for Oaths who would verify if was now complete and he could then regularise it. The thinking being I suppose that it may never get reassembled. ...which is a distinct possibility !!

You could do the same.

mgbgt1978

Seweryn wrote: »

So it looks like there is no sensible, legal and logical option of registering it straight away to avoid penalty fees?

If the vehicle is older than 30 years when you bring it in to this country it is exempt from VRT....there is a €200 admin fee, but this is not a VRT fee.
The penalty for late registration is based on the VRT due at the time of importation.
Therefore you cannot be charged a penalty fee for late registration as there is no VRT due anyway.
Once you can prove that the vehicle entered the country after it's 30th Birthday then you can take as long as is needed to restore the vehicle before presenting it for registration.

Kenny Logins

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

If the vehicle is older than 30 years when you bring it in to this country it is exempt from VRT....there is a €200 admin fee, but this is not a VRT fee.
The penalty for late registration is based on the VRT due at the time of importation.
Therefore you cannot be charged a penalty fee for late registration as there is no VRT due anyway.
Once you can prove that the vehicle entered the country after it's 30th Birthday then you can take as long as is needed to restore the vehicle before presenting it for registration.

Are you sure about that? The last two cars I imported I was a bit lazy with, and the people in the NCT centre were urging me to hurry up in order to avoid the fees.. VRT.ie says the late fees are based on OMSP, but I'm not sure if this also applies to vin/vet cars...

Kenny Logins

This is all I can find now - http://www.vrt.ie/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=515

Sounds like they make it up as they go.

swarlb

galwaytt wrote: »

Exactly. A friend of mine went in to SORD his completely disassembled 1923 Model T. He was this he couldn't as it wasn't an actual whole vehicle. He was told he needed to do nothing until it was complete and he then had to present it to a Commissioner for Oaths who would verify if was now complete and he could then regularise it. The thinking being I suppose that it may never get reassembled. ...which is a distinct possibility !!

You could do the same.

I know of people who have 'SORDED' a logbook, where no car exists. Do you mean he brought his Model T to the NCT to apply for a registration plate.
The car I am enquiring about is at present in Portugal, the body is 90% finished, the engine and transmission are also restored and are original to the car. The suspension components are not restored, and as such have not been refitted. The car is 70 odd years old. The intention is to finish the restoration here.
There should be a simple procedure to import a restoration project, and to get it registered before it is finished.
Knowing the way they do things in Ireland, there is a distinct possibility that they could in the future ban the importation of any car, new or old, in which case someone's time and money in restoring a car and then applying to 'import' it would be wasted.

timmy4u2

As mgbgt states a car over 30 years is not subject to VRT nor can it then be assessed on the OMSP.
There is nothing new in not clearing an unroadworthy car. This was always the situation even when being cleared through C/E.
I can remember seeing a notice in a VRT office, when it was done by C&E, stating that a car that was not roadworthy through accident or otherwise did not need to be presented for clearance until it was road worthy.
You can bet your bottom dollar that that was not repealed

macplaxton

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

If the vehicle is older than 30 years when you bring it in to this country it is exempt from VRT....there is a €200 admin fee, but this is not a VRT fee.

timmy4u2 wrote: »

As mgbgt states a car over 30 years is not subject to VRT

Stop kidding yourself. It is flat rate VRT Category C. Look up the Revenue website. Read the laws of the land. Too much pub talk taken as gospel.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/vrt-guide.html#section11

timmy4u2

macplaxton wrote: »

Stop kidding yourself. It is flat rate VRT Category C. Look up the Revenue website. Read the laws of the land. Too much pub talk taken as gospel.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/vrt-guide.html#section11

Its dangerous to just take your gospel from a simplified version of the actual act.
Penalties are based on a percentage of the OMSP. The OMSP does not apply to vehicles over 30 years so no basis for calculation of penalties

swarlb

timmy4u2 wrote: »

Its dangerous to just take your gospel from a simplified version of the actual act.
Penalties are based on a percentage of the OMSP. The OMSP does not apply to vehicles over 30 years so no basis for calculation of penalties

It would also be foolhardy to assume ANYTHING in relation to potential payments where the Irish revenue is involved. Just because something is not written, does not mean anything..
Over the past few weeks no-one, from the Garda to my local NCT centre, to my local Tax Office has been able to give me a definitive answer as regards importing a non running car over 30 years old.
From a NO you cannot, followed by a 'Well, I'm not really sure', to a 'I cannot see there would be a problem...BUT' to a 'You could be done for not paying VRT (the exact words of the woman in the Tax Office) if you do not report bringing it into the state, till such time as its restored, but then again, I'm not to sure....'
The only reason I posted here was in case anyone had recently imported a resto project.
I'm considering bringing the car to the North, and registering it there. Then completing work on the drive train/suspension till such time as it can be a 'rolling restoration'. Then import it as normal.

macplaxton

timmy4u2 wrote: »

Its dangerous to just take your gospel from a simplified version of the actual act.
Penalties are based on a percentage of the OMSP. The OMSP does not apply to vehicles over 30 years so no basis for calculation of penalties

The Revenue can raise an outstanding charge if a vehicle is registered late. This outstanding charge is based on the VRT due (Cat C), not the OMSP. As VRT is due on vehicles over 30 years old, there is a basis for the calculation of penalties.

Section 132 (sub-section 3A as amended), of the Finance Act 1992.

(3A) Notwithstanding subsection (3), where the Commissioners are of the opinion that a vehicle has not been registered at the time specified in Regulation 8 of the Vehicle Registration and Taxation Regulations 1992 ( S.I. No. 318 of 1992 ), the amount of vehicle registration tax due and payable in accordance with subsection (3) shall be increased by an amount calculated in accordance with the following formula:


A × P × N


where—


A is the amount of vehicle registration tax calculated in accordance with subsection (3),


P is 0.1 per cent, and


N is the number of days from the date the vehicle should have been registered in accordance with Regulation 8 of the Vehicle Registration and Taxation Regulations 1992 and the date of registration of the vehicle.”.

timmy4u2

If you are prepared to trawl through the finance acts in detail you should come across the reliefs and exemptions.
VRT penalties are clearly defined as a precentage of the OMSP. OMSP clearly does not apply to vintage category vehicles.
You can access all the VRT manuals on line as they were made available under the FOI Act.
In fact if you read closely the legislation you will find that the regulations do not state that the vehicle has to be roadworthy.
It states that it has to comply with the definition of an MPV and that is that it is capable of been propelled by mechanical means.
What is capable of being propelled by mechanical means. It has tohave an engine that works and propells the vehicle.
VRT also applies to MPVS so I would suggest that a disassembled vehicle is not an MPV as it is not capable of being propelled by mechanical means. Therefore there are two options.
1. It becomes liable in the state when it becomes an MPV and VRT regulations do not apply until then.
2. It is assembled in the state and is subject to a new identity when assembled-may have to get over type approval.

timmy4u2

macplaxton wrote: »

The Revenue can raise an outstanding charge if a vehicle is registered late. This outstanding charge is based on the VRT due (Cat C), not the OMSP. As VRT is due on vehicles over 30 years old, there is a basis for the calculation of penalties.

Section 132 (sub-section 3A as amended), of the Finance Act 1992.

Much of 1992 finance act is defunct as regards the calculation of VRT penalties.
The penalties are clearly laid out in the new regulations as based on precentages of the OMSP. The older manual has a few exemptions to that wherein cat c vehicles had a set charge of €60 up to 30 days and a straight prosecution after that.
You are a bit behind the times. You should be checking Section 62 Finance Act 2008. No 2 of 2008.
And I did not hear that in a pub.

macplaxton

timmy4u2 wrote: »

Much of 1992 finance act is defunct as regards the calculation of VRT penalties.

That I know, I did cross check a lot of the amendments.

timmy4u2 wrote: »

The penalties are clearly laid out in the new regulations as based on precentages of the OMSP.

Show me the regulations you are referring to please.

timmy4u2 wrote: »

The older manual

VRT Manual?

timmy4u2 wrote: »

You are a bit behind the times. You should be checking Section 62 Finance Act 2008. No 2 of 2008.
And I did not hear that in a pub.

Your entitled to you opinion of what times I might be behind or not, but if you care to read the quote I put up in my last post, it IS part of the amendment from Section 62 Finance Act 2008. No 2 of 2008.

I agree with you that if you remove a certain number of specific components from a complete vehicle, you will end up with "spare parts" rather than a "mechanically propelled vehicle" and in such cases all bets are off until it becomes one.