Stuck & looking for some tips

Ninjakettle

So we've no idea where GG Grandfather Richard Cunningham came from or who any of his family might be. The key missing bit is the marriage cert to his wife Bridget Gowlan circa 1875 (first child James born in '76), which would show the village he came from.

They lived in Woodfield, Boyounagh Parish, Galway. but were not there at the time of the GValuation. There are a lot of cunninghams in neighbouring villages, but no anecdotal evidence of Richard coming from any of them.

The registry offices have come up empty and both local churches Dunmore and Glenamaddy churches have no record. Nothing has turned up on the usual Internet sites/indexes (roots, Ancestry, FamilySearch)

Does anyone have any idea or suggestions or is this a dead end without a civil/church record? Thanks.

shanew

Ninjakettle wrote: »

So we've no idea where GG Grandfather Richard Cunningham came from or who any of his family might be. The key missing bit is the marriage cert to his wife Bridget Gowlan circa 1875 (first child James born in '76), which would show the village he came from......

The parish where their 1st child was baptised is usually a good place to start. A civil marriage cert will give you the current residences for the bride & groom, may not be the same as their places of birth.

Marriages usually took place in the brides current parish. Do you have any clues to her family ?

Godparents for the children's baptisms can sometimes be clues.. maybe another Gowlan or Cunningham on one of them ?

p.s. what was given as Richard's occupation on the birth certs ?

shanew

the NLI records for the RC parish of Boyounagh (Boyounagh/Glenamaddy) mention baptisms from 1838 to 1880, with a gap in 1858/59 and another between 1863 and 1865, but dont specifically mention any marriages after 1863...

Ninjakettle

The parish where their 1st child was baptised is usually a good place to start

Yep, it's a good bet he did come from the same parish. But as i say, there's quite a lot of cunninghams in the townlands of that parish. It could come down to knocking on doors

Marriages usually took place in the brides current parish. Do you have any clues
to her family ?

Yes, we found a Birth Cert for a Bridget Gowlan around the time you'd expect her to be born. (1841) Which puts her in Dunmore, but a search in the church records came up empty.

Godparents for the children's baptisms can sometimes be clues.. maybe another
Gowlan or Cunningham on one of them ?

Yeah, that's a good point, i think i need to revisit the birth certs and look at the Sponsors names again. I didn't pay a lot of attention at the time. He's occupation was a farmer by the way.

the NLI records for the RC parish of Boyounagh (Boyounagh/Glenamaddy) mention
baptisms from 1838 to 1880, with a gap in 1858/59 and another between 1863 and
1865, but dont specifically mention any marriages after 1863...

We actually believe Bridget Gowlan may have been a widower when she married Richard. There's evidence to suggest she was married to another in Woodfield before he died (not 100%). This makes Glenamaddy church a likely place for their marriage, but sadly this church has no marriage or death records until 1925. I beleive they were destroyed.

I think i'll take a look at those sponsor names again tonight - cheers.

shanew

Ninjakettle wrote: »

...to revisit the birth certs and look at the Sponsors names again. I didn't pay a lot of attention at the time. He's occupation was a farmer by the way.
....no marriage or death records until 1925. I beleive they were destroyed.

godparents would be on baptisms rather than civil births - they show informant. Often the father, mother or sometimes midwife.

I was wondering if there was a fire or flood etc - seemed to be very 'gappy' records detailed in the usual sources for the parish.. Glenamaddy was probably the parish church in later years, so would have held all the records for the parish, including any from Chapels of Ease. RC churches rarely kept records of death/burial in their registers, but any deaths or marriages that took place after 1864 should been registered and in civil records.

shanew

In case it helps if you need to widen the search area - you can see the layout of the parishes on the IrishTimes site :

East Galway RC parishes
Roscommon RC Parishes

So looks like neighbouring RC parishes to Glenammady/Boyounagh are 'Kilbegnet & Glinsk' , 'Kilkerrin & Clonberne' and 'Dunmore' and probably 'Kiltulla/Kiltullagh' and also 'Kilkeevin'.

The last two are based in Co. Roscommon. Kilbegnet RCB parish although based in Co. Galway also covered parts of Co. Roscommon.

The names of the parishes vary is lists, sometimes a combination of the civil parishes included, sometimes the name of the town where the parish church was located. e.g. Kilbegnet is sometimes listed as 'Killbegnet & Dunamon' or 'Killbegnet & Ballinakill', as it also included these civil parishes (7 in total).

pinkypinky

Ninjakettle wrote: »

Yes, we found a Birth Cert for a Bridget Gowlan around the time you'd expect her to be born. (1841) Which puts her in Dunmore, but a search in the church records came up empty.

Do you mean a baptismal cert? There were no birth certs in 1841.

Ninjakettle

Thanks folks - yes I guess it's a Baptism cert for '41 i have.
When did Civil birth certs kick in?

I'm going to revist what i have on the Baptism/Birth cert front this weekend.

I believe there was a fire in Glenamaddy church. Such a shame. It's so strange there's no Civil record of their marriage though. I assume it was compulsory, even in 1875

I never thought about the neighbouring parishes, i just assumed it would be glenamaddy or Dunmore, but truly the man could have come from anywhere. Could be worth a shot. I might check the GValuation for cunninghams in those parishes to see if i get a hit.

shanew

Ninjakettle wrote: »

...
When did Civil birth certs kick in?
.....
I might check the GValuation for cunninghams in those parishes to see if i get a hit.
....

1864 along with deaths and Civil registration of RC marriages... but not all births were registered in the early years.

Griffith's valuation uses Civil parishes rather than RC parishes, and you can view a list those included in an RC parish on the same website. Click on a parish on one of the maps, and then click on the link at the end of the list 'Click here for a listing of placenames within this parish'. There are also maps of the civil parishes, view by clicking on Browse at the top of the screen, then the county. Civil parishes are usually smaller, so there are many more of them compared to RC parishes

Ninjakettle

Ok, so after checking, the only records we currently have for the births of their childeren are the Civil registration records - and as you've said, Richard and Bridget have put themselves down as informants - so no help there.

So we're going to try and get our hands on the Baptism records. I hope this will be available at the church, but the NLI records on microfilm...are they just indexes, or will they show the full record including godparents?

shanew

Ninjakettle wrote: »

....
So we're going to try and get our hands on the Baptism records. I hope this will be available at the church, but the NLI records on microfilm...are they just indexes, or will they show the full record including godparents?

The NLI films are of the historic parish registers - so same details. For the dates involved you can usually expect the following details on an RC baptism entry : name of child, date of baptism, full names of both parent, and names of godparents.

Usually two godparents, but have seen a number with just one. 'Address' is sometimes included, but often not, particularly on earlier records. Some parishes also include date of birth.

p.s. if you post the children's names and dates for the certs you have I can see if they might be included in the transcripts on RootsIreland Index...
Edit : based on the extracted records for James and Margaret I checked the free index for listings for them - no sign of baptisms, just one listing for each - both Civil births registered in Glenamaddy/Dunmore district. Based on their source list it doesn't look look they included any of the baptims for the parish of Boyounagh/Glenamaddy. 1838-1865 listed for marriages, but nothing for baptisms, along with a asterisk beside the baptism column indicating that 'Some records for these parishes are missing'.

The NLI index notes missing baptism records for the parish from mid-1858 to Dec-1859 and Oct-1863 to Oct-65, but the film includes at least some details up to 1880

Ninjakettle

Yep, you're right. Roots doesn't have the baptism records for that parish, i was checking that too. It's actually from Roots i got the civil records. Hopefully the church will have the baptism records handy to look at, otherwise I'll have to schedule a trip to the NLI. Thanks for all the help, much appreciated. I'll report back.

mari2222

Do you know of any "cousins" in the area who might take a site visit to potential graveyards.......sometimes there is extra info on a headstone....?

Ninjakettle

mari2222 wrote: »

Do you know of any "cousins" in the area who might take a site visit to potential graveyards.......sometimes there is extra info on a headstone....?

Good tip. Though we've already exhausted this option as we actually live in the area (or rather my parents still do) and they've trawled the graveyards over the last couple of years to see i they could learn anything. Alas, nothing turned up. They're actually going to check out the church records this week to see what shows up on the baptism records.

dido2

I just had a look, theres a Bridget Gowlan who got married in 1871 Glenamaddy, but on Ancestry there are 9 people on the page, I had success with 2 peoples marriages when they appeared on the page of 9 people, they were mistranscribed, and recently someone else who had been searching for years had luck with the same thing both spouses were indexed in different quarters so never came up as a match, a quick phone call to the GRO verified that they had indeed married each other, they just weren't indexed on the same page, so it's the first thing I look for always when i can't find a marriage match I check for and odd number for spouses...

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYSD-2WR
Name: Bridget Gowlan
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 1871
Event Place: Glennamaddy, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year: 1871
Registration District: Glennamaddy
Volume Number: 4
Page Number: 408



These are the couples on that particular page
Mary Hoban
Mary Burke
Luke Tully
Thomas Mullen
Martin Golden
Bridget Hannelly
Bridget Noone
Michael Shally
Bridget Gowlan

Theres one other marriage in Tuam 1875 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FY3V-WP5 but you may have checked them already!

dido2

Just had a look at Ancestrys family trees and the Bridget Gowlan who married in Tuam 1875 seems to have married Pat Costello.. So that would rule that one out..

Ninjakettle

Firstly, thank you all for the continued help!

@Dido2, I think I follow what you're saying, but if it were a mild mis-transcription error, wouldn't you expect "Richard Cunningham" to still appear somewhere on that same index for that year too ('71) ? Which I don't believe he does.

In any case, i think we have had the definitive answer from the GRO. Before we knew you could see potential spouses on Ancestry or FindMyPast, we visited the GRO offices and asked if the Bridget Gowlan you guys have also discovered in '71 and '75 happened to marry a Richard Cunningham - and we were told no. I can't believe those rogues didn't register their union!

It's worth noting that we find Gowlan and "Golden" were used interchangeably back then too. But I believe a lot of the on-line search's are aware of these alternatives.

Ninjakettle

Ok, my parents had a very quick window of 30mins today to look at the baptism records for the kids and they have dug up some info!

Alas, my mother is not brilliant with a camera and I can't make out some of the pictures she took, so they'll be going back again for some clearer shots and transcribing. But, one did come out quite well, though I'm having some trouble deciphering it.

It's for Michael, their second born. You'll see the old term "Golden" is used instead of "Golwan" and also that it's in Latin.
Now I believe the Godparents are listed directly underneath...but god help me i can't read it. I mean I think I see...

Patricus J,ame = Patrick ?????
Ha???ia Dolan?? = ????? Dolan

Anyone like to venture a guess? - link here

Alicat

The godparents, the name Patrick can't be right, it's on every second line? Maybe it's Latin for 'godparents'?

So to me, it looks like Joannes and Honoria Dolan.

dido2

Ninja Kettle, I've asked too at times if someone has married someone, and unless you've the exactly right name they won't tell you!

If I were you I'd spend the €4 on the cert to see exactly who it was she married, it may be a first marriage for her and if it is she may then have used the surname for her marriage to Richard Cunningham..

Have you seen the baptisms on Family Search, there are a few Canniffe/Gowlan births before Cunningham/Gowlan births, last one is Jan 1875 the first Cunningham birth is November 1876 https://familysearch.org/search/collection/results?count=20&query=%2Bmother_givenname%3ABridget%20%2Bmother_surname%3AGowlan&collection_id=1584963

dido2

Just doing some looking and theres a death record for a John Cunniffe in 1874 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRYR-L3B Highly possible that this is the John married to Bridget Gowlan, despite age, she possibly was pregnant when he died

dido2

Can I ask how do you know that the first child was born in 1876??
Only reason I ask is that in the 1911 Census Richard is 70 which gives a year of birth of about 1841 so it could be highly possible he got married anytime from about 1860 onwards, and Civil records only start in 1864..

Bridgets age in 1901 Census is 50 but 70 in 1911 so thats a jump of 20 years

There is a Richard Cunningham born in 1865 in glenamaddy did you ever get that to see if he was a possible son??

dido2

I knew I saw another Stray!
Theres a Richard Cunningham again in a list of 9 for a marriage in Tuam 1875
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FY3K-BZ9


Name
Mary Carney
Kate Kennedy
Michael Lynott
Catherine Patterson
James M'Loughlin
Catherine Clarke
Richard Cunningham

Up to a certain time all the marriages of the year were all together, it wasn't until a certain time that they were divided into Quarters..

I would be inclined to get the marriage certs for Bridget Gowlan 1871 and Richard Cunningham 1875 to see who they married.. Might be the best €8 you've spent!!

Ninjakettle

Continued thanks folks - great to have the problem approached from different angles.

Alicat wrote:

The godparents, the name Patrick can't be right, it's on every second line? Maybe it's Latin for 'godparents'?
So to me, it looks like Joannes and Honoria Dolan.

Absolutely right - patrinus means godfather according to this link. Joannes (John) is possible, but given that "Joannes" happens to be present in the same handwriting 3 lines down, it's easy to compare and they don't really match to my eye? Might look up some more latin first names. "Honoria" did cross my mind too, but it's a funny 'o' - but yeah, could well be. Thanks!

dido2 wrote:

Can I ask how do you know that the first child was born in 1876??

We have the civil record. Could Richard have been married before - Yes, possibly, we've no idea about him really before woodfield. We're pretty sure Bridget was married to a Michael Donnellen before. This is based on the fact that Michael Donnelen Jr owned the land in Woodfield at the time of the GValuation. he Died and it was ceded to his wife Bridget (we saw the revision books). Richard eventually came to live on that land and married a woman named Bridget Gowlan. On a hunch it was the same widowed Bridget - we searched for a marriage cert for Michael Donnellen and Bridget Gowlan, and sure enough there was one from 1861 for a marriage in Dunmore, though it didn't specifically list Michael as being from Woodfield. It's very likely though.

The Richard Born in 1865 you mention; i see it on Roots, but lose the hit when i try to put in the fathers first name as Richard. So i doubt this is an earlier child. Good spot though and worth checking out.

dido2 wrote:

I would be inclined to get the marriage certs for Bridget Gowlan 1871 and Richard Cunningham 1875 to see who they married.. Might be the best €8 you've spent!!

Ok, yup. Might just do that to be sure one way or another. Cheers!!

pinkypinky

Just to say that a cert in my possession lists a widow as "Anne Jane Bryan Philips" and it is clear on that Byran is her maiden name, and Philips her first married name but in the index both surnames are listed.

Ninjakettle

pinkypinky wrote: »

Just to say that a cert in my possession lists a widow as "Anne Jane Bryan Philips" and it is clear on that Byran is her maiden name, and Philips her first married name but in the index both surnames are listed.

I know what you're getting at Pinky, and it's something we considered too. We asked the GRO to look for marriages between Richard Cunningham and Bridget "Donnellen" which was her suspected first married name. But it turned up nothing either sadly.

dido2

I don't know about anyone else but I'm not one to give up easily until i'm Happy with the info I know!!!!:P

I'll keep looking to see if I can find anything else, I know others have often found stuff for me, and I've found stuff for others purely because we were dealing with the facts rather than being clouded with all the family lore!!

dido2

I was just looking at the 1901 Census and the Cunninghams are very much surrounded by Comers and Donelans aren't they, have you tried to establish who they all were??

dido2

Theres a possible marriage between a Michael Cunningham and a Catherine Gowlan, have you ever checked it as a possible it's in Tuam 1871..

CeannRua

Ninjakettle wrote: »

Continued thanks folks - great to have the problem approached from different angles.

Absolutely right - patrinus means godfather according to this link. Joannes (John) is possible, but given that "Joannes" happens to be present in the same handwriting 3 lines down, it's easy to compare and they don't really match to my eye? Might look up some more latin first names. "Honoria" did cross my mind too, but it's a funny 'o' - but yeah, could well be. Thanks!

We have the civil record. Could Richard have been married before - Yes, possibly, we've no idea about him really before woodfield. We're pretty sure Bridget was married to a Michael Donnellen before. This is based on the fact that Michael Donnelen Jr owned the land in Woodfield at the time of the GValuation. he Died and it was ceded to his wife Bridget (we saw the revision books). Richard eventually came to live on that land and married a woman named Bridget Gowlan. On a hunch it was the same widowed Bridget - we searched for a marriage cert for Michael Donnellen and Bridget Gowlan, and sure enough there was one from 1861 for a marriage in Dunmore, though it didn't specifically list Michael as being from Woodfield. It's very likely though.

The Richard Born in 1865 you mention; i see it on Roots, but lose the hit when i try to put in the fathers first name as Richard. So i doubt this is an earlier child. Good spot though and worth checking out.

Ok, yup. Might just do that to be sure one way or another. Cheers!!

Alicat is right about both names. Being very pernickety, that Latin word is patrinis = sponsors rather than patrinus.

Ninjakettle

dido2 wrote: »

I was just looking at the 1901 Census and the Cunninghams are very much surrounded by Comers and Donelans aren't they, have you tried to establish who they all were??

Yes, generations of our family stayed and are still in Woodfield. We know the people there and know those families. Ours intertwines with some of them later, but circa 1875 when Richard arrives to marry Bridget -we don't believe he's related to any of them. Bridget is why he's there, and she married into the Donnellens. There's no anecdotal knowledge of where he came from. I'm sure someone knew once of course.

dido2 wrote:

Theres a possible marriage between a Michael Cunningham and a Catherine Gowlan, have you ever checked it as a possible it's in Tuam 1871

I haven't, i guess i thought the names were too disparate. Are you thinking they maybe used second names? How likely would that be do you think?
EDIT: checking Roots, it seems Catherine and Michael were who they say the were and went on to have at least 4 kids from 1872.. Was worth a look

CeannRua wrote:

Alicat is right about both names. Being very pernickety, that Latin word is patrinis = sponsors rather than patrinus.

Makes even more sense, thanks. And yes, I think Alicat nailed it. I've been googling common irish/latin variations, and there's just no other fit really. So it's just a bit of sloppy handwriting (i can talk). I'm gonna take it as "John" and "Hanoria" Dolan.

I plan to get the other sponsors from the other kids (if they're there) and try to find those people in the census or their marriage certs etc, to try establish a link. The game is still afoot!