Knocked off bike, who's fault?

budgemook

Hello,

I was cycling to work along the north quays in Dublin this morning. Around Ormond Quay I was going along, close to the footpath, and a car in front of me turned left down a side street. He didn't indicate or see me coming and I went straight into him. I ended up in a heap on the ground with a few cuts but nothing too serious. My front wheel is buckled but not sure what else what happened the bike.

So I'm just wondering was I at fault at all? Obviously he should have indicated and looked to see what's coming but should I be coming along the inside like that, essentially under-taking the car (if it didn't turn left).

check_six

Look, these sort of threads usually end up with the person who is on the thread (i.e. you) getting a bit of support, and then some over the top grief. The other guy isn't here so why knock him some (mean) people reckon.

The threadites will attempt to determine if the car overtook you before the corner, or was it always ahead of you until it turned. Should the driver have indicated earlier, or are indicators unnescessary fripperies that should be ignored whether they are lit up or not. Then there will be a few quotes from statute books, some highlighting an entire passage, some just a word or two. Then three or four people will argue the toss over these fine points for a few days while you've forgotten about the thread entirely. Also, pray to god that there is no mention of bloody 'road' tax.

The way I see it, you got run over by a driver who should have been more careful no matter how far ahead they were of you, but that's just my opinion. Other's may say that you are, in fact, the devil, out there trying to do a good driver down.

Also, if you were on the way to pick up tools from Capel St to open a safe you just found hidden in a house you just purchased, you should mention that right now.

budgemook

Oh right. Sorry I don't be on the Cycling Forum very often.

circular flexing

Driver probably should have paid more attention but you didn't do yourself any favours by cycling "close to the footpath". If I'm cycling down the Quays (which I do every day) I always make sure that I'm in the middle of the lane before any left hand turns.

check_six

budgemook wrote: »

Oh right. Sorry I don't be on the Cycling Forum very often.

Apologies, I didn't mean to be so dismissive. There are a number of factors at play, did the car overtake before turning?
Was the car ahead of you in slow traffic before turning?
Was there a cycle track at that location?

I have seen plenty of occasions where a car will rush an overtake before a corner and then swing across a bike's path assuming that the bike had remained static. this may have been what happened in your case.

I would guess that the driver never checked to see if there was anything in the way before turning, but you might give us some more info about the incident.

Did the driver stop once they had run you over? did they give you their details? Were you injured, apart from the bike damage? Were the Guards notified?

I'd think that a reasonable human being would spring for the price of a new front wheel if they had just smushed one with their car though their own negligence.

bellinter

Pretty much the exact same thing happened to me last January/February on the Dundrum - Milltown road. The driver immediately accepted responsibility and was happy to provide his personal details to me and he also picked up the bill for the bike repairs, relatively hassle-free.

In my opinion there is no doubting who is at fault. The driver wasn't paying necessary care of his surroundings. Could I have done more to prevent it? Maybe, but if he had being paying proper attention I wouldnt have had to.

budgemook

check_six wrote: »

Apologies, I didn't mean to be so dismissive. There are a number of factors at play, did the car overtake before turning?
Was the car ahead of you in slow traffic before turning?
Was there a cycle track at that location?

I have seen plenty of occasions where a car will rush an overtake before a corner and then swing across a bike's path assuming that the bike had remained static. this may have been what happened in your case.

I would guess that the driver never checked to see if there was anything in the way before turning, but you might give us some more info about the incident.

Did the driver stop once they had run you over? did they give you their details? Were you injured, apart from the bike damage? Were the Guards notified?

I'd think that a reasonable human being would spring for the price of a new front wheel if they had just smushed one with their car though their own negligence.

I don't really know if he overtook me first. Also, close to the footpath might be a bit inaccurate, i was cycling along in the left hand lane as normal. There weren't any cars in front of the other car I don't think but like I say I can't be sure, happened pretty fast. There's no cycle track on that part of the quays.

The driver got out of the car and asked was I okay. A lot of other people came over too as it was a bad enough fall. The driver got back int he car pretty quickly then and drove off. Someone gave me his licence plate number but I'm not sure I'll bother taking it further. It would be a civil matter which I doubt i'd pursue over a buckled wheel.

c50

budgemook wrote: »

I don't really know if he overtook me first. Also, close to the footpath might be a bit inaccurate, i was cycling along in the left hand lane as normal. There weren't any cars in front of the other car I don't think but like I say I can't be sure, happened pretty fast. There's no cycle track on that part of the quays.

The driver got out of the car and asked was I okay. A lot of other people came over too as it was a bad enough fall. The driver got back int he car pretty quickly then and drove off. Someone gave me his licence plate number but I'm not sure I'll bother taking it further. It would be a civil matter which I doubt i'd pursue over a buckled wheel.

the fact that he drove off very quickly would lead me to be quite spiteful, especially in my mind that the driver was in the wrong by a fair shot. just in a matter of pursuing and get him for cost of buckled wheel, not legal action. he should have checked his rear 2+ times and had an indicator on with plenty of reaction time. especially if no cycle path, i was always lead to believe the left hand side is where you should state unless its unsafe to do so?

bellinter

Buckled wheel might be all you think it is... could be plenty of more damage done. Plus, what about the cuts on your face... what if they dont heal? Or get infected? You're looking at some costly medical/plastic surgery bills then while Johnny Driver is walking around with a smug grin on his face.

Seriously though, definitely you should report it. Drop into the garda station and get it written down.

Dermot Illogical

budgemook wrote: »

The driver got back int he car pretty quickly then and drove off. Someone gave me his licence plate number but I'm not sure I'll bother taking it further. It would be a civil matter which I doubt i'd pursue over a buckled wheel.

Hit & run.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0106.html

You really should report it. He's damaged your property, been careless about whether you got hurt and is now running off to leave you with the bill for it.

check_six

Woah there! He checked to see if you were still breathing, and then took off? My hope that they were a reasonable human being has gone out the window.

Go directly to Garda station and see if they can help you find him. Did you take any details of one of the witnesses? Could be helpful. You're kind of lucky you are only looking to get your wheel fixed, but I would be unwilling to let someone who took off at the earliest opportunity away with even that. You should bear in mind that even if the driver did lash on his indicator, he should still avoid swinging into your path.

LeftBase

This seems to be an all too common occurrence in Dublin. To be honest there is blame in all directions in many cases. The driver, cyclist and authorities.
I have been living in London the last year or so and I noticed while driving that cyclists here take their cycling an awful lot more seriously and are policed more than they are in Dublin. 99% of cyclists here will have some sort of illumination, be it a bright top or light and it makes it a lot easier to spot them. Also if a cyclist is out in his All Blacks kit the traffic police will be quick enough to have a word with him and issue him a warning. The biggest difference was the cyclists here(again 99%) stopping at the lights!! I almost fell out of my standing(well I was in the car but you get the idea) when I saw it!

In Dublin you see these comedians all too often cycling all over the road swaying left and right with not a light or piece of bright clothing to show them up at night and sure when they come across a red light what of it? "red lights are only for cars". When I was home in the summer I saw some spanner on a bike sail straight through a junction on a red light and the crossing traffic who had a green had to slam on to avoid smashing in to him. Had he been hit I'm afraid he would have gotten no sympathy from me and I would have no problem chalking it up to Darwinism. If a car was to do that there would be Garda cars called and handcuffs flying about. In many cases where cyclists cause accidents they hide behind the fact they have no insurance and the motorist is blamed regardless of the circumstances so that the finances can be settled quickly.

The issue that I think causes all the hassle however is the total lack of cycling infrastructure around the city. The City Council start up this bike scheme and unleash the potential of a load of totally clueless idiots on bikes with no notion of how the road works or what they need/have to do etc. You see these people cluelessly floating around the city without a signal or thought for the traffic around them. The Council then don't put in proper cycle lanes so the bikes have to cycle on the road with the cars and that is a recipe for disaster no doubt. I have Dutch cousins and the idea of cars and bikes in the same lanes in a city was a joke to them!

To really cut down on the number of bumps, scrapes or worse I think the Council need to invest in proper cycling infrastructure and the Guards need to enforce traffic laws and proper attire for cyclists. If a bike breaks the lights it should be treated the same as a car doing it and the punishment should be the same.

circular flexing

LeftBase wrote: »

This seems to be an all too common occurrence in Dublin. To be honest there is blame in all directions in many cases. The driver, cyclist and authorities.
I have been living in London the last year or so and I noticed while driving that cyclists here take their cycling an awful lot more seriously and are policed more than they are in Dublin. 99% of cyclists here will have some sort of illumination, be it a bright top or light and it makes it a lot easier to spot them. Also if a cyclist is out in his All Blacks kit the traffic police will be quick enough to have a word with him and issue him a warning. The biggest difference was the cyclists here(again 99%) stopping at the lights!! I almost fell out of my standing(well I was in the car but you get the idea) when I saw it!

In Dublin you see these comedians all too often cycling all over the road swaying left and right with not a light or piece of bright clothing to show them up at night and sure when they come across a red light what of it? "red lights are only for cars". When I was home in the summer I saw some spanner on a bike sail straight through a junction on a red light and the crossing traffic who had a green had to slam on to avoid smashing in to him. Had he been hit I'm afraid he would have gotten no sympathy from me and I would have no problem chalking it up to Darwinism. If a car was to do that there would be Garda cars called and handcuffs flying about. In many cases where cyclists cause accidents they hide behind the fact they have no insurance and the motorist is blamed regardless of the circumstances so that the finances can be settled quickly.

The issue that I think causes all the hassle however is the total lack of cycling infrastructure around the city. The City Council start up this bike scheme and unleash the potential of a load of totally clueless idiots on bikes with no notion of how the road works or what they need/have to do etc. You see these people cluelessly floating around the city without a signal or thought for the traffic around them. The Council then don't put in proper cycle lanes so the bikes have to cycle on the road with the cars and that is a recipe for disaster no doubt. I have Dutch cousins and the idea of cars and bikes in the same lanes in a city was a joke to them!

To really cut down on the number of bumps, scrapes or worse I think the Council need to invest in proper cycling infrastructure and the Guards need to enforce traffic laws and proper attire for cyclists. If a bike breaks the lights it should be treated the same as a car doing it and the punishment should be the same.

Nice rant, but what relevance does this have to the OP?

check_six

LeftBase wrote: »

This seems to be an all too common occurrence in Dublin. To be honest there is blame in all directions in many cases. The driver, cyclist and authorities...

...In many cases where cyclists cause accidents they hide behind the fact they have no insurance and the motorist is blamed regardless of the circumstances so that the finances can be settled quickly.

You see OP, I told you this thread would bring all sorts out of the woodwork. Fear my dread warnings!

LeftBase

circular flexing wrote: »

Nice rant, but what relevance does this have to the OP?

This sort of thing happens all the time. Most road safety campaigns are aimed a certain way while unsafe policies lead to these sort of mishaps. I was highlighting who is at fault for these sort of things. It's totally relevant.

Corkbah

if he hit and ran - I'd go straight to the gardai and make a statement ..... that sort of behaviour is disgraceful !!

circular flexing

LeftBase wrote: »

This sort of thing happens all the time. Most road safety campaigns are aimed a certain way while unsafe policies lead to these sort of mishaps. I was highlighting who is at fault for these sort of things. It's totally relevant.

So which policy exactly leads to drivers left-hooking cyclists?

mondeo

Get down to the Garda station and report it! Your bike needs to be fixed and you got minor injuries. I can't believe you didn't report it. Don't think about it just do it.

Zillah

If he didn't indicate then it's his fault, regardless of anything else. Depending on road positioning, even if he did indicate, he might have been on top of you when he turned and it would still be his fault. Basically, unless he indicated in time, had plenty of room, and you accelerated to catch up with him as he was turning, this was his fault.

I had the same happen to me, but I managed to slam on my brakes in time. His window was open, thank God, so I got to call him an asshole

LeftBase

circular flexing wrote: »

So which policy exactly leads to drivers left-hooking cyclists?

Well there is a myopic statement if I ever saw one. If you want to have a cycling infrastructure then have one that is safe and keeps cyclists away from cars. It should be much the same as the pedestrian system. We have it in some places in the city such as the end of Lower Mount street IIRC. There is a cycle lane with lights and the cyclists have to stop at the left turn so that they are not hit by cars turning. The cycle path is in off the road so you would have to want to hit a cyclist to actually do it.

Another problem is the lack of any compulsory training for cyclists so in many cases they do not recognise danger or get in to dangerous positions that a driver no matter how careless would recognise or steer clear of.

No Pants

LeftBase wrote: »

proper attire for cyclists

Once the OP's not cycling around in their birthday suit, they're fine.

Rubberchikken

i think all road users have to be vigiliant. there has to be responsibility on everyone, some a little more than others.
cyclists are vulnerable but a lot of them have this sail-close-to-the-wind attitude tghat doesn't help thier case.

follow up reg no if you wish op. driver should have stayed put, not just disappeared after checking you were ok. at least an offer to repair bike should have been discussed.

Gerry T

If you report it the Guards can check with local businesses, a lot will have street cameras and they can look at the recording to see if they can get the car. No matter who is in the wrong he should have stopped and got out to make sure you were ok, he's a bit of a winker to just drive off. Get the wheel replaced and any thorn clothes would seem to be fair.

Just read more of the thread and saw this post from the OP:
The driver got out of the car and asked was I okay. A lot of other people came over too as it was a bad enough fall. The driver got back int he car pretty quickly then and drove off. Someone gave me his licence plate number but I'm not sure I'll bother taking it further.

Did you say you were ok and give the impression that was the end of the matter ? If so while I think the driver was in the wrong he did check before leaving.

RobFowl

budgemook wrote: »

Hello,

I was cycling to work along the north quays in Dublin this morning. Around Ormond Quay I was going along, close to the footpath, and a car in front of me turned left down a side street. He didn't indicate or see me coming and I went straight into him. I ended up in a heap on the ground with a few cuts but nothing too serious. My front wheel is buckled but not sure what else what happened the bike.

So I'm just wondering was I at fault at all? Obviously he should have indicated and looked to see what's coming but should I be coming along the inside like that, essentially under-taking the car (if it didn't turn left).

It was obviously Pat McQuaids' fault

No Pants

I'd definitely report it as he's technically left the scene of an accident.

beazee

Each time I see this AirZound comes to mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJC1lJvbrvU

LeftBase

No Pants wrote: »

Once the OP's not cycling around in their birthday suit, they're fine.

Not in a lot of other countries. As I said it's rare in UK metropolitan areas to see a cyclist dressed all in black at night as you see an awful lot here

rozeboosje

You were cycling straight on and he was turning, right? Case closed. His fault.

AltAccount

LeftBase wrote: »

Not in a lot of other countries. As I said it's rare in UK metropolitan areas to see a cyclist dressed all in black at night as you see an awful lot here

Again, this applies to this left hook, then Hit and run, how?

budgemook

Gerry T wrote: »

If you report it the Guards can check with local businesses, a lot will have street cameras and they can look at the recording to see if they can get the car. No matter who is in the wrong he should have stopped and got out to make sure you were ok, he's a bit of a winker to just drive off. Get the wheel replaced and any thorn clothes would seem to be fair.

Just read more of the thread and saw this post from the OP:
The driver got out of the car and asked was I okay. A lot of other people came over too as it was a bad enough fall. The driver got back int he car pretty quickly then and drove off. Someone gave me his licence plate number but I'm not sure I'll bother taking it further.

Did you say you were ok and give the impression that was the end of the matter ? If so while I think the driver was in the wrong he did check before leaving.

I was on the ground and lots of people were asking "are you okay? are you okay?" as in checking if I was conscious. Once I stood up he was gone. So yes, he did stop and check but didn't stay long. I actually thought he was just moving his car out of the way of traffic but he was leaving.

rozeboosje wrote: »

You were cycling straight on and he was turning, right? Case closed. His fault.

That's the long and short of it.

quozl

budgemook wrote: »

I was on the ground and lots of people were asking "are you okay? are you okay?" as in checking if I was conscious. Once I stood up he was gone. So yes, he did stop and check but didn't stay long. I actually thought he was just moving his car out of the way of traffic but he was leaving.

That's the long and short of it.

You really should report it as a hit & run then. It might discourage him from doing it again in a case where the victim isn't lucky enough to have been given the license plate number by a passerby.