Court Summons in English only

Capelstreet5

Isn't a summons supposed to be in Irish also? Someone I know got a court summons in English only and requested it in Irish by calling down to the court twice (closed both times) and also by writing to the court (has proof of this). He is now being accused of contempt of court for not turning up at the court on the date but he never got a reply to his request for the summons in Irish.

coylemj

What agency of the state issued the summons and how did they get his name? If you're stopped by the Gardai for example and give your name in English, you can't expect to receive a summons in Irish.

Five Lamps

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

Isn't a summons supposed to be in Irish also? Someone I know got a court summons in English only and requested it in Irish by calling down to the court twice (closed both times) and also by writing to the court (has proof of this). He is now being accused of contempt of court for not turning up at the court on the date but he never got a reply to his request for the summons in Irish.

He should get better advice.

littlemac1980

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

Isn't a summons supposed to be in Irish also? Someone I know got a court summons in English only and requested it in Irish by calling down to the court twice (closed both times) and also by writing to the court (has proof of this). He is now being accused of contempt of court for not turning up at the court on the date but he never got a reply to his request for the summons in Irish.

I really don't know - perhaps a criminal summons.

Civil summons/Witness summons - I doubt it (perhaps it could be requested - but not from the Courts Office - they just file those documents)

If he understood what the summons was and that it required his attendance - he should have attended Court.

Writing to Court may be proof he requested a copy in Irish, but it's also proof he received the summons.

godtabh

Sounds like that freeman crap

drunkmonkey

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

requested it in Irish by calling down to the court twice (closed both times)

He didn't request it at all then, you might as well have said he went to Disneyland it's just as relevant.

bumper234

Any minute now the usual howlers will be in screaming about how gubmint are eroding civil rights and this is a disgrace and no way should he go to court and if he does he should conduct his whole case in Irish blah blah blah

Cody Pomeray

It's nothing to do with freeman.

Serious adults can and do receive summonses through Irish, the first official language of the state.

Although anecdotally if you live outside Gaeltacht areas you may meet some confusion.

Capelstreet5

Irish is officially the first language of the state. He got the summons in English and requested it in Irish by writing back asking for it in Irish. You are entitled to have your case heard in Irish if you so ask. The question is if asking for the summons in Irish after receiving it in English is it considered not to have been served properly?

Cody Pomeray

I don't think there's any reliable authority on that.

O'Beolain and others provide loose guidance, but nobody could possibly say with certainty. Hypothetically speaking, any such challenge would be very interesting. Sorry there can't be much clarity in this answer.

Bepolite

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

Irish is officially the first language of the state. He got the summons in English and requested it in Irish by writing back asking for it in Irish. You are entitled to have your case heard in Irish if you so ask. The question is if asking for the summons in Irish after receiving it in English is it considered not to have been served properly?

AIRTEAGAL 8

1 Ós í an Ghaeilge an teanga náisiúnta is í an
phríomhtheanga oifigiúil í.

2 Glactar leis an Sacs-Bhéarla mar theanga oifigiúil
eile.

3 Ach féadfar socrú a dhéanamh le dlí d’fhonn
ceachtar den dá theanga sin a bheith ina haonteanga
le haghaidh aon ghnó nó gnóthaí oifigiúla ar fud
an Stáit ar fad nó in aon chuid de.

Cibé an bhfuil siad nó nach bhfuil ceist suimiúil.

Fred Swanson

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Capelstreet5

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Nearly everything I get from any government or local authority is in Irish and English. I am nearly sure there is a legal requirement to corrospond in Irish and the English is added due to it been more widely spoken.

littlemac1980

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Personally I don't think its necessary.

Aside from the fact that a Civil Summons or Witness Summons is drafted and served by a Solicitor (as opposed to the State) there would obviously be (unnecessary) substantial cost involved (particularly if the State was involved).

This situation may well be in relation to a witness summons, or indeed a Civil Summons - the OP has never clarified that point.

The purpose of a Summons is simply to notify and compel attendance at Court.

If a party to proceedings (as opposed to a witness) wants to request proceedings be defended or pursued in Irish - they can make that request at the time of complying with the summons and attending Court - that's their right.

I don't believe there is any right to ignore a Court notice simply because it is not in the language you prefer, provided you understand what it means, and it has been duly brought to your attention. In this case considering it was in English, it would be very difficult (perhaps impossible in this day and age) for an Irish person to claim they did not understand what it meant.

I'm all for preservation and promotion of the Irish Language and Irish Culture and Tradition, but I'd rather see Tax Money spent on promoting Irish Music, Arts and Language in the community.

Fred Swanson

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Capelstreet5

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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What was the case name of that do you recall?

Capelstreet5

littlemac1980 wrote: »

Personally I don't think its necessary.

Aside from the fact that a Civil Summons or Witness Summons is drafted and served by a Solicitor (as opposed to the State) there would obviously be (unnecessary) substantial cost involved (particularly if the State was involved).

This situation may well be in relation to a witness summons, or indeed a Civil Summons - the OP has never clarified that point.

It is in relation to a summons to appear at court to answer charges of tax. I don't know the ins and outs of the charge itself.

source

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

It is in relation to a summons to appear at court to answer charges of tax. I don't know the ins and outs of the charge itself.

Does he use Irish in his day to day life and is he fluent enough to go through a court case in Irish?

If the answer to these questions is no, then it would be my belief that he is another one of the idiots who try to use Irish to frustrate the legal arms of the state, in an effort to get off or delay whatever charge they face.

A Primal Nut

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

Isn't a summons supposed to be in Irish also? Someone I know got a court summons in English only and requested it in Irish by calling down to the court twice (closed both times) and also by writing to the court (has proof of this). He is now being accused of contempt of court for not turning up at the court on the date but he never got a reply to his request for the summons in Irish.

When informing you of the issue, did he tell you in English or Irish?

Capelstreet5

littlemac1980 wrote: »

Personally I don't think its necessary.

I'm all for preservation and promotion of the Irish Language and Irish Culture and Tradition, but I'd rather see Tax Money spent on promoting Irish Music, Arts and Language in the community.

Promoting the maintaining of the position of Irish as the first language is also worth of tax money, No?

Capelstreet5

A Primal Nut wrote: »

When informing you of the issue, did he tell you in English or Irish?

Told me in English. I did not learn Irish nor do I speak it.

littlemac1980

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

Promoting the maintaining of the position of Irish as the first language is also worth of tax money, No?

?

source

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

Told me in English. I did not learn Irish nor do I speak it.

Can you answer my question?

Capelstreet5

littlemac1980 wrote: »

?

The preservation of the prominence of Irish legally is of great benefit to the Arts and culture in Ireland.

Capelstreet5

source wrote: »

Does he use Irish in his day to day life and is he fluent enough to go through a court case in Irish?

If the answer to these questions is no, then it would be my belief that he is another one of the idiots who try to use Irish to frustrate the legal arms of the state, in an effort to get off or delay whatever charge they face.

He uses and speaks Irish at native level. He can easily go through a court case in Irish. He is very active in promoting the Irish language and wants it to remain as the official first language of Ireland.

littlemac1980

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

The preservation of the prominence of Irish legally is of great benefit to the Arts and culture in Ireland.

That's a debate for another day.

My personal view (as set out above) is that it is of more value to promote Irish Tradition and Culture at a Community level, you appear to disagree.

Capelstreet5

littlemac1980 wrote: »

That's a debate for another day.

My personal view (as set out above) is that it is of more value to promote Irish Tradition and Culture at a Community level, you appear to disagree.

The prominance of Irish legally filters down to Tradition and Culture at a Community level. Take away the legal prominance of Irish and it would suffer more at Community level. Concentrating at Community level only is somewhat akin to being penny-wise and pound foolish.

littlemac1980

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

The prominance of Irish legally filters down to Tradition and Culture at a Community level. Take away the legal prominance of Irish and it would suffer more at Community level. Concentrating at Community level only is somewhat akin to being penny-wise and pound foolish.

Yes I know what your view is. Mine is different.

robindch

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

Irish is officially the first language of the state.

And the constitution also says that the Irish "State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion."

The constitution does need to be updated in the light of reality.

Capelstreet5

Speed fine thrown out because ticket was not in Irish



http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/speed-fine-thrown-out-because-ticket-was-not-in-irish-26387908.html

Fred Swanson

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Capelstreet5

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Thanks. It may very well be relevant.

Cody Pomeray

source wrote: »

Does he use Irish in his day to day life and is he fluent enough to go through a court case in Irish?

I wonder if this is relevant.

Can the courts have regard to an individual's competence in the language, save from providing a translator? What if the individual were a native English speaking gaeilgeoir-in-training? The plain words of the constitution do not say that statutes must only be provided to native Irish speakers, and insofar as this applies to SIs (and where relevant, summonses) neither does the constitution make any similar limitation.

Or we may go further. What condemnatory action or analogous negative decision could a court take where the individual/ accused were a native Irish speaker, who speaks bad English, but wishes to be tried in English? I say none.

Bepolite wrote: »

AIRTEAGAL 8

1 Ós í an Ghaeilge an teanga náisiúnta is í an
phríomhtheanga oifigiúil í.

2 Glactar leis an Sacs-Bhéarla mar theanga oifigiúil
eile.

3 Ach féadfar socrú a dhéanamh le dlí d’fhonn
ceachtar den dá theanga sin a bheith ina haonteanga
le haghaidh aon ghnó nó gnóthaí oifigiúla ar fud
an Stáit ar fad nó in aon chuid de.

Cibé an bhfuil siad nó nach bhfuil ceist suimiúil.

is ea ach níor achtaíodh aon dlí den chineál sin maidir le aon toghairm chomh fhada le m'eolas.

os choinne sin ta toghairmi le fail tri mhean na Gaeilge cheana féin, in aiteanna a bhfuil Gaeilge labhartha sa cheantar - i gCorca Dhuibhne, mar shampla.

Capelstreet5

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I wonder if this is relevant.

Can the courts have regard to an individual's competence in the language, save from providing a translator? What if the individual were a native English speaking gaeilgeoir-in-training? The plain words of the constitution do not say that statutes must only be provided to native Irish speakers, and insofar as this applies to SIs (and where relevant, summonses) neither does the constitution make any similar limitation.

Or we may go further. What condemnatory action or analogous negative decision could a court take where the individual/ accused were a native Irish speaker, who speaks bad English, but wishes to be tried in English? I say none.



is ea ach níor achtaíodh aon dlí den chineál sin maidir le aon toghairm chomh fhada le m'eolas.

os choinne sin ta toghairmi le fail tri mhean na Gaeilge cheana féin, in aiteanna a bhfuil Gaeilge labhartha sa cheantar - i gCorca Dhuibhne, mar shampla.

I think the position is Irish first and English is second for comprehension of the masses reason. Failing that it is necessary that the person being summoned must understand that they are being charged. Therefore a foreigner who does not speak Irish or English is entitled to a translation into their own language.

Cold Sore

I think this will not fly. A summons is merely a device to compel a person to attend court. It is not evidence of the contents of it. Someone served with a summons in English and who wants an Irish version can make a condition appearance before the court and request all documents be provided in Irish. The culprit clearly knew from the first summons that he was obliged to appear in Court.
One way to test this is for him to be arrested and then bring an Article 40 immediately.
Another option would be for him to JR the DJ for issuing the bench warrant.

Capelstreet5

Cold Sore wrote: »

I think this will not fly. A summons is merely a device to compel a person to attend court. It is not evidence of the contents of it. Someone served with a summons in English and who wants an Irish version can make a condition appearance before the court and request all documents be provided in Irish. The culprit clearly knew from the first summons that he was obliged to appear in Court.
One way to test this is for him to be arrested and then bring an Article 40 immediately.
Another option would be for him to JR the DJ for issuing the bench warrant.

He went twice to the court but it was closed. He wrote to them twice requesting it but they ignored his letters.

bumper234

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

He went twice to the court but it was closed. He wrote to them twice requesting it but they ignored his letters.

So he finds times to go to court twice to moan about the summons not being in Irish but then won't go to the court on the allocated date?

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

Isn't a summons supposed to be in Irish also? Someone I know got a court summons in English only and requested it in Irish by calling down to the court twice (closed both times) and also by writing to the court (has proof of this). He is now being accused of contempt of court for not turning up at the court on the date but he never got a reply to his request for the summons in Irish.[/quote?

Capelstreet5

bumper234 wrote: »

So he finds times to go to court twice to moan about the summons not being in Irish but then won't go to the court on the allocated date?

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

Isn't a summons supposed to be in Irish also? Someone I know got a court summons in English only and requested it in Irish by calling down to the court twice (closed both times) and also by writing to the court (has proof of this). He is now being accused of contempt of court for not turning up at the court on the date but he never got a reply to his request for the summons in Irish.[/quote?

Well actually he protests his innonce and wants to defend himself.

bumper234

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

bumper234 wrote: »

So he finds times to go to court twice to moan about the summons not being in Irish but then won't go to the court on the allocated date?




Well actually he protests his innonce and wants to defend himself.

He obviously doesn't

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

Isn't a summons supposed to be in Irish also? Someone I know got a court summons in English only and requested it in Irish by calling down to the court twice (closed both times) and also by writing to the court (has proof of this). He is now being accused of contempt of court for not turning up at the court on the date but he never got a reply to his request for the summons in Irish.

If he was determined to defend himself he would have turned up for court on the appointed day at the appointed time which he obviously understood but chose to play Mr Asshat instead.

Capelstreet5

bumper234 wrote: »

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

He obviously doesn't



If he was determined to defend himself he would have turned up for court on the appointed day at the appointed time which he obviously understood but chose to play Mr Asshat instead.

I am glad our constitutional rights do not lie in your hands.

McCongo

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

bumper234 wrote: »

I am glad our constitutional rights do not lie in your hands.

He deliberately absented himself from court when he knew he was summoned there. He could have appeared under protest.
What he did was a contempt of court. He can get damages for any breach of his constitutional rights but he cannot treat the courts with contempt.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

Well actually he protests his innonce and wants to defend himself.

No, he's using a loophole.

Did he - knowingly or unknowningly - fail to show at court at the requested time?

If knowingly - which we seem to agree on is indeed th case - then he is using a loophole and, as has been pointed out, in contempt; and is most certainly not innocent.

If unknowningly, he has a point, but he'll have to prove it to said courts at some point.

source

Capelstreet5 wrote: »

bumper234 wrote: »

I am glad our constitutional rights do not lie in your hands.

And what about his constitutional responsibilities?

We always hear people giving out about their rights, but with rights come responsibilities.

He received a summons, he read and understood the summons, he then had a responsibility to turn up in court at a set date and time, which he failed to do. He is guilty of contempt of court, if he wished to have his proceedings done through Irish he could request to do so in court as is his right.

I still believe he is trying to use Irish to frustrate the justice system.

gctest50

source wrote: »

........
I still believe he is trying to use Irish to frustrate the justice system.

The High Court yesterday heard that the prosecution of Donegal builder, Eamonn Mac Giolla Chomhaill, from Gaoth Dobhair, will not proceed.

and he achieved something :

Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy has also given a commitment to the Coimisineir Teanga, Sean O Curreain, that bilingual copies of speeding notices - fixed penalty notices - are being distributed to gardai so that people who wish to conduct their business in Irish may do so.

Pwnage mór

.

source

gctest50 wrote: »

and he achieved something :




Pwnage mór

.

Well done, thanks for quoting stuff already on the thread.

The point I'm trying to make is too many people use the provision or rather the lack of provision of Irish documents as a loop hole to avoid prosecution. It's disrespectful to the language they claim to love.

Also the offence of speeding is not as serious as a "tax offence" which could be anything from not paying for a road fund licence (motor tax) to tax avoidance, a case like this will not be thrown out because the summons was in English.

A fixed penalty notice is requesting someone pay a penalty for an offence, a summons is demanding their attendance in front of a court to answer a charge two very different documents.

Personally I love the Irish language, but I am also a realist, I have seen first hand the waste that goes into this system of producing documents in English and Irish, forms, booklets, documents all in Irish all gathering dust not being used anywhere but the Gaeltacht.

Fred Swanson

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Princess Consuela Bananahammock

gctest50 wrote: »

and he achieved something :




Pwnage mór

.

A speeding ticket is one thing, contempt of court is another. I think he also argued that English was effectively his second language.

littlemac1980

It also appears to be the case (based on the reports I've seen here) that the Prosecution decided to withdraw the Donegal charge, as opposed to the Court making any decision on it.

Fred Swanson

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Cody Pomeray

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

If knowingly - which we seem to agree on is indeed th case - then he is using a loophole and, as has been pointed out, in contempt

Are you just making this up, yeah?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Are you just making this up, yeah?

He knew he was expected there. He refused to go.

Which of those statements is wrong?