Buying beef cattle profitable weights

Gilroy

Hi all,

I have 50 acres of land and im selling all my cattle this winter to start fresh next Feb 2014. I currently stock the farm with 325 kg - 380 kg bullocks or weanling bulls at the start of the year. Profit excluding labour, machinery, feed etc is around €250 - €300. I only took over from Dad last year but this isnt great turnover. We would buy all different types like Charolais, Lim, Hereford.... We dont buy Fresian to often. I don't hold cattle through the winter as we dont have the facilities or time to fodder. Plus i farm part time so the less hassle in the evenings the better. This year i cut 15 acres of round bales silage but plan to sell these on. If i didnt cut silage in the future i would have more grass to graze meaning more cattle over Feb to Nov potentially.

I'm looking to turn the most profit from a period of Feb to Nov per year and not holding any cattle over the winter months (Nov, Dec, Jan). New method must be grass fed cattle and the last 6 weeks can be meal feed if required. The profit margin i aim for is between €500 - €650 per head if sold or finished.

There must be some farmers out there doing this each year by having a set grazing method or buying certain quality cattle at certain weights.

LET ME KNOW YOUR VIEWS

simx

Youre aiming for 500-650 net profit is it?
Id like to hear from a few thats making that per head also

Gilroy

simx wrote: »

Youre aiming for 500-650 net profit is it?
Id like to hear from a few thats making that per head also

Profit from sales yard or factory only.... then take away your external costs from Feb to Nov. Such as feed, testing, dosing, diesel, machinery etc

Robson99

The best way would be to buy 300kg heifers in Feb and put them straight to grass. Sell them as forward stores at end of Oct. But you would need to be a magician to have more than €300 per head profit.

bbam

I'm no expert but what sort f weight gains are you getting?

From good continentals over that period (240 days) I'd expect you'd be looking at 1.1kg a day.
That should gain them ~260 at €1.8/kg should gross you ~€470

It would take a good paddock system. You should be modeling your grass management like a top end dairy farm. That's something beef farms often miss out on.

Pharaoh1

Just to clarify Gilroy I presume what you are referring to as profit is the sale price less the purchase price or gross margin if you like.
The €250 to €300 margin is realistic for summer grazing - I usually average around €320 each year for a 220kg weight gain which is little enough for the weight gain but remember that the price per kilo of a nice weanling is always higher than the price per kilo of the same animal as a store. The spring to autumn nature of the trade often doesn't help this system either.
I managed a €400 margin in 2011 but that was down to a major lift in prices.

Sorry bbam but imo the idea of a €470 gross margin on summer grazing grass only cattle is a bit of a stretch. OK maybe if you could buy all your cattle from a top quality herd with super breeding and feed loads of meal leave them as bulls etc.. it could be done but at what cost.
Very difficult with mart bought heifers or steers as you will always have a few slow growers who will drag down the avg weight gain.

Robson99

bbam wrote: »

I'm no expert but what sort f weight gains are you getting?

From good continentals over that period (240 days) I'd expect you'd be looking at 1.1kg a day.
That should gain them ~260 at €1.8/kg should gross you ~€470

It would take a good paddock system. You should be modeling your grass management like a top end dairy farm. That's something beef farms often miss out on.

I would be no expert either but would be allowing 240 days at ave 0.8kg per day one with the other.
Purchase good continentals 300kgs x €2.75 /kg €825
Sell at 500kgs x € 2.50/kg €1200
Gross profit €425
Less commission, transport, dose, manure, insurance etc etc
You should have €300 per head all going well. Although in practice not always as simple as this

tvo

What are the tax implications of running a system like this if you hold your assets as cash instead of stock at year end are you liable for tax on on the full value of cash

Farmer Pudsey

It hard to imagine any summer grazing system giving a gross margin of 500/head not to mind profit. On 50 acres of goodish land you would be aiming for a stocking rate of 1.5+/acre. Over the last few years farmers doing summer grazing did quite well as prices rose from spring to fall. Visa versa would mean a substandcial loss.

You would be buying 70-90 cattle for this type of operation. At present HEX and AA store cattle 400kgs+ are making 2.20/kg and a bit with it and another 20 in fees and transport to land in the yard. If these make 2.5/kg in the spring they will be costing from 1020 euro+/head to stock farm. We are over due a grass fever spring and a price fall at the year end. In general these cattle will gain 180-200kgs on average over the summer.

The reason that they will only average 200kgs is that you will only buy as grass becomes available so buying will be from February-April and you will need to star selling in August as grass growth declines. So an average of 190 gain will be as good as can be expected. So cattle will be 600kgs at slaughter if bought at 410kgs and 640 if bought at 450kgs. Some summer grazer stock at a lower lever and make hay and silage which they use to allow stock in earlier before prices really take off or to sell and this allows them a longer grazing season and greater gain of 250+kgs.

From what I see a gross margin of 300/head is the best that summer grazing manages and a lot only have Lawn mowers costing them money. How often have we seen fellows keep cattle that only make as much in September as they paid in March/April. When I started 10 years ago summer cattle only really got expensive in April not it is early March.

Profit in farming is not about have a set method it is about adapting to conditions. If your present system is returning you 250/head profit at greater than or even near 1 unit/acre I would stick with it especially if you SFP is on top of it.

Gilroy

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It hard to imagine any summer grazing system giving a gross margin of 500/head not to mind profit. On 50 acres of goodish land you would be aiming for a stocking rate of 1.5+/acre. Over the last few years farmers doing summer grazing did quite well as prices rose from spring to fall. Visa versa would mean a substandcial loss.

You would be buying 70-90 cattle for this type of operation. At present HEX and AA store cattle 400kgs+ are making 2.20/kg and a bit with it and another 20 in fees and transport to land in the yard. If these make 2.5/kg in the spring they will be costing from 1020 euro+/head to stock farm. We are over due a grass fever spring and a price fall at the year end. In general these cattle will gain 180-200kgs on average over the summer.

The reason that they will only average 200kgs is that you will only buy as grass becomes available so buying will be from February-April and you will need to star selling in August as grass growth declines. So an average of 190 gain will be as good as can be expected. So cattle will be 600kgs at slaughter if bought at 410kgs and 640 if bought at 450kgs. Some summer grazer stock at a lower lever and make hay and silage which they use to allow stock in earlier before prices really take off or to sell and this allows them a longer grazing season and greater gain of 250+kgs.

From what I see a gross margin of 300/head is the best that summer grazing manages and a lot only have Lawn mowers costing them money. How often have we seen fellows keep cattle that only make as much in September as they paid in March/April. When I started 10 years ago summer cattle only really got expensive in April not it is early March.

Profit in farming is not about have a set method it is about adapting to conditions. If your present system is returning you 250/head profit at greater than or even near 1 unit/acre I would stick with it especially if you SFP is on top of it.

Once again thanks for your comments and i will take these on board. Even last night i bought two 300kg - 360kg LM and LMX type cattle. Prices €610 to €680. You need to get quality continental cattle up to €750 above 300kg to turn €500 this time next year. Fingers crossed but i will try and see if this happens.

Also last year the cattle i had gained up to 250 - 300 kg and they only ever feed on grass, the system is key and moving to fresh grass every few days helps.

Farmer Pudsey

Gilroy wrote: »

Once again thanks for your comments and i will take these on board. Even last night i bought two 300kg - 360kg LM and LMX type cattle. Prices €610 to €680. You need to get quality continental cattle up to €750 above 300kg to turn €500 this time next year. Fingers crossed but i will try and see if this happens.

Also last year the cattle i had gained up to 250 - 300 kg and they only ever feed on grass, the system is key and moving to fresh grass every few days helps.

Mart last monday 400kgs+ cattle AA's were making around 2.20/kg. However AA's and LM's that were back at 350kgs were at 600-650 euro. for 50-80 kgs in weight the price difference was 300+ euro. I thaught that these cattle were value if you gained 300kgs from now to this time next year they would be finished killing 340kgs even at 4 euro/kg they be making 1350 euro. The right LM might even do better than that.

Your example above is for cattle that are kept 12 monts approx the example's I gave in my last reply was for pure summer grazing buying Feb-April selling Aug-Nov. Comparing cattle prices now to next spring is a massive difference. cattle bough now may gain 60-100kgs before next march and 200-240 from that to next November.

I always think it is very hard to make money out of summer grazing or keeping heifers for dairy farmers.

Robson99

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Mart last monday 400kgs+ cattle AA's were making around 2.20/kg. However AA's and LM's that were back at 350kgs were at 600-650 euro.

What mart was that Pudsey? What grade cattle were these O's?

Farmer Pudsey

Robson99 wrote: »

What mart was that Pudsey? What grade cattle were these O's?

This was in Killmallock in Limerick O+ average I would say saw a pair 340 only make 610 however on one was a O= at best and there was 60-80Kgs between the two cattle. Would still consider these value. Kilmallock is usually an expensive mart to buy in so seldom buy there was just looking last Monday as I am kinda full at present but was tempted to fill a pen with these type of cattle. Saw a four Fresians O- and O= 350kgs only make 560 I think you would have them for two winters but they would be heavy cattle June 2015 or if you got them to 420kgs for next April they might make 900 euro. Even selling as forward stores in November next at 650kgs would they make 1200 euro??? I think these type of cattle are worth a gamble for the farmer that is working as well and cannot be turning cattle every 3-4 months.

Gilroy

This post is turning out to be a classic with great comments from different farmers in different situations. We all aim to turn the most amount of money per head and this is why we are discussing this topic. Lets see other peoples views and experiences.

My situation ties me down to Feb to Nov grazing and i believe i am a good enough to turn €500 per head. Maybe not next year but over the next 3 years as i learn, different reseeding programmes and better grass quality.

Roll on 2014, cant wait to start buying and see end result in Nov 2014......

Robson99

Best of luck Gilroy. Reseeding is essential for weight gain imo. Also I am beginning to think winter feeding is a non profitable exercise. When you add up the cost of Silage and concentrates [ especially at last winters prices ] utilizing grazing from Feb to Nov as you plan to do could be the way forward. Although I still think €300 nett profit per head would be an excellent achievment

Muckit

I think this is a good thread too. I am slowly finding my feet in drystock. Its been a steep learning curve, but sure I feel I'm learning a bit every year.

Definitely a lad wants to be buying cattle with potential. Bob mentioned it before and it has never left my head, buy the animal, not the weight. I have seen it with my own eyes certain cattle stick on the indicator and easily pass out slightly heavier bought in cattle. You are the fool then buying by the weight. It should be used as a guide and a guide only, but i feel €30-€50 extra MAY be money well spent on a beast with potential. It'I all come to light when they enter the ring the second time or show up as € on the factory kill sheet.

I thing that I can't get my head around is killing date. There appears to be a lot of lads killing cattle at a younger age and lower liveweights. If I buy in weanlings this Autumn I expect to have them for the guts of two years (Selling Aug-Sept'15, aged ~30mths). I am buying in every year, so have two batches. Am I being silly at this game? Now I'm talking continentals that can carry weight.

Perhaps it comes down to the quality of the land or the amount of meal lads are willing to feed, but I couldn't see how I could have cattle up again finishing any sooner and grade out well.

On the issue of grading, I find the factory to be a very unforgiving place. You definitely need cattle well done or it will be you that gets slaughtered. For the sake of a blood test (for heifers), I think the mart could be the place to sell heifers and get their value/kg. There is always one or two in a batch that are not quite there, these can't be sent on with the rest if heading to factory. logistically it is easier (especially if you are a small farmer) to have the one day out with them all at the mart.

I would love to hear people's opinions on the points I have raised above.

Robson99

Muckit I agree totally buy the animal not the weight. As regards finishing we would always try to finish heifers between 22 & 24 months with a carcass weight of 320-330kg. Heifers are bought in spring and fattened out of the shed the following winter.Good contenintals are bought with a preference for orange charlaois types. We always buy from good Rs or Us never Os

Muckit

Robson99 wrote: »

we would always try to finish heifers between 22 & 24 months with a carcass weight of 320-330kg.

Hi Robson99

Why do you kill at this age and weight? Would these animals not have the potential to put on more weight and so come into more money??

Robson99

Muckit wrote: »

Hi Robson99

Why do you kill at this age and weight? Would these animals not have the potential to put on more weight and so come into more money??

Because it works for me in the fact that they will kill out at 330kg R+3 or U-2+
They are killed out of the shed while my purchases go straight to grass. Its a simple 12month turnaround system. If I kept them till 30 months it would mean I wouldnt be able to buy till Autumn and would be going from spring to autumn back to spring if you get what im saying. I also dont see what is to be gained from keeping them once the have enough cover on

MfMan

[QUOTE=Farmer Pudsey;

Profit in farming is not about have a set method it is about adapting to conditions. If your present system is returning you 250/head profit at greater than or even near 1 unit/acre I would stick with it especially if you SFP is on top of it. [/QUOTE]

Never a truer word typed in this forum.

In response to the OP, it would IMHO be very hard to turn €500 profit (gross or net) on a bullock from March-ish to October-ish. You'd want to be buying very astutely all of the time every time and rely on beef prices being reasonably stable in the backend. Additionally, you need to have a fair rotation system with good grass in all paddocks and meal feeding for the last number of weeks is a must for good killout percentages to be realised.

The most (gross) profitable cattle I have had I've held for a winter. The most profitable (euro / days held) cattle I've had have been very short term keep, e.g. I bought a few strong cattle a couple of months ago, fed them for a month and killed them, making c. €130/head. This tactic probably wouldn't work at the height of summer however, when grass is at it's most plentiful, cattle prices for strong forward stores traditionally at it's peak and beef price heading for it's seasonal post-July decline.

Muckit

Robson99 wrote: »

Because it works for me in the fact that they will kill out at 330kg R+3 or U-2+
They are killed out of the shed while my purchases go straight to grass. Its a simple 12month turnaround system. If I kept them till 30 months it would mean I wouldnt be able to buy till Autumn and would be going from spring to autumn back to spring if you get what im saying. I also dont see what is to be gained from keeping them once the have enough cover on

What amount of meal would you be giving them finishing out of the shed?

Robson99

Muckit wrote: »

What amount of meal would you be giving them finishing out of the shed?

They would be on about 10kgs/day for last 60 days

Muckit

Ah ya different system

ellewood

Robson99 wrote: »

I would be no expert either but would be allowing 240 days at ave 0.8kg per day one with the other.
Purchase good continentals 300kgs x €2.75 /kg €825
Sell at 500kgs x € 2.50/kg €1200
Gross profit €425
Less commission, transport, dose, manure, insurance etc etc
You should have €300 per head all going well. Although in practice not always as simple as this

What would be lads opinions on roughly what all these cost add up to, say buying 300kg stores in spring and selling in autum

ie.
Buying commission
Transport home
Dose/vaccinate on arrival
Herd test
Grazing costs/day including fert ect.
Meal costs - if any
2nd/3rd dose
Transport back to mart
Selling commission

Others..
Mortality
Stocking loan interest

Never mind paying youreself or a land charge, just what would be the pure costs of getting an animal from spring to autum.

Gilroy

I haven't disagreed on anything so far but here it goes. This statement ""buy the animal, not the weight"" drives me mad, let me tell you why. I have seen charolais bull calfs fetch €1075 at 325kg. This makes zero sense at all. Look at the previous post about costs that occur over the life on the farm. Madness... they look lovely in the field but take costs away I bet that farmer will be making around €200 profit. Sorry about the rant and this is why I created this thread.

My method is a test for 2014 but I bet the tight grazing system from Feb to Nov will gain more money in my pocket then having facilities, mowing silage, your free time in the winter... which is so important.... if you have a young family.

1chippy

i dont think anyone is telling you to buy stock @325kg for over 1k. what they are saying i think is buy roomy, scopey or even hungry cattle rather than the showpiece.
i used to love the optimism tht i got when i started farming first. i was going to breed all calves for over 1k. lads are trying to tell you to be realistic. high profits are possable but be prepared for the hardship

Farmer Pudsey

About buying the animal not the weight sounds grand in theory. TBH I buy on price paying 200 extra for an animal makes little sence I try not to tie huge amounts of money up in cattle. At present I am buying in the 300-500 euro bracket. My target is a net margin of minimum 200/head and most of the time it is more. I tend not to have time to spend day in the mart this year. Most cattle spend about 12 months before slaughter.

The biggest trick with buying is to buy when the market is weak and try to sell when prices are high. It is as simple and as complex as that. No point in putting 10% more weight on an animal and the price to drop 10%. No point in feeding cattle at a loss during the winter however cattle can still be finished at a profit even though they may have a bad conversion rate.

If buying private I try to get owner to deliver

Veteninary fee including vet, herd test and dosing 15/head/year
Grass 50 cent/day or 100 for garzing season
Baled silage 23/bale
50 euro to cover mart commission, slaughter fees and transport

While it never pays to breed a poor animal it often pays to buy one

bbam

Just one thing while the conversation is on the go, enjoying this thread.

I'm not involved in buying such stock so it's interesting. How do lads tell if stock are going to be U O or R, lads seem so certain of this, are they just blowing smoke from their holes or what??

bob charles

easy make money when you buy cheap and sell dear, this rarely happens even if you convince yourself it does. Some of the figures on here are as usually low in cost. If the cost are what is claimed back up along the thread then there would be loads of dosh in grazing and finishing cattle, which *I think* there isnt. How many, say 100 herd beef cattle are able to put 5k aside for ongoing repairs, replacement of buildings in 20yrs time, machinery replacement etc - very few I would think. Its a bit like the haulage game, once the place and machine fall down the enterprise will go with it. The cost of just staying in business and doing daily business are astronomical.

ellewood

Heard some lad say before to make money at that game someone has to get burned along the chain - and ya hope its not going o b u..;-)

Robson99

bbam wrote: »

Just one thing while the conversation is on the go, enjoying this thread.

I'm not involved in buying such stock so it's interesting. How do lads tell if stock are going to be U O or R, lads seem so certain of this, are they just blowing smoke from their holes or what??

You will have a fair good idea what will end up an O, R or U, though I wouldnt be one for sub dividing them into +, = or - when buying or selling them. I think fat cover can be harder to determine when they are going to the factory. I have seen some going with what I thought was ample cover and come back 2= even though they would have been on high levels of concentrates for 10 weeks

bbam

Robson99 wrote: »

You will have a fair good idea what will end up an O, R or U,

How ?

Is their information online to help understand the differences..

Robson99

bbam wrote: »

How ?

Is their information online to help understand the differences..

Using your eyes

bbam

Robson99 wrote: »

Using your eyes

Great, thanks :cool:

Robson99

bbam wrote: »

Great, thanks :cool:

Google carcass conformation gallery and it will give you an idea.

mf240

bbam wrote: »

How ?

Is their information online to help understand the differences..

I don't know if there on line but I would know by looking at an animal what there potential grade would be.

It comes with experience , also there would be some cattle that would kill at maybe an R +3 off the grass but if was fed a nice bit of meal would be u-4l.

If your buying for years you will guess 90 % of them spot on.

There will always be one that won't thrive or one that will surpass your exceptations.

Farmer Pudsey

Most poster here seem to be drifting towards sucker bred cattle all the time. Over 50% of the cattle killed each year come from dairy bred cattle.

On grades you can by breed, type and from what they were born from understand what carcasse grade they will fall into. I will just deal with Bullocks with a good cover of finish 3+,4L dairy type cattle and what they general grade in my opinion other will differ

Friesians will grade from P+ to O+
Jerseys will grade P= to O-
Angus from dairy stock will grade O=to R-
Herefords from dairy stock will grade O- to O+
Limousin from O+ to R=
Other Continentals From dairy stock O+ to R+ biggest issue with them is that they need to go to heavy weights to get to top grades.

So when you look you can then subdivide after that some will drop above or below but only a small percentage again in my opinion.

Suckler bred cattle vary more mostly dependant on the type of mother they have.

I agree with Bob on that there only small money from beef especially compared to possible money invested. However I disagree on buying and selling. Some lads here talk about grazing from March to November. Usually late March/April is the most expensive time to buy cattle and October/November the worst time to sell. Buying and marketing of cattle is the biggest part of the game no matter how much weight you put on or how efficient you are to feed if you are not buying and selling at the same time you have to be able to manage this part of the game and it has in my opinion the biggest effect on profitability.

Molly Bawn

You seem to have it all figured out about the disadvantages of winter feeding, the time, the cost etc and your family are lucky that you think like that. I am married to a man who winter feeds and refuses to change or listen to my arguement!! We are getting older with not one of six in family at home with us or interested in farming. The costs of baling silage, the hours put in looking after cattle in sheds and going out in the cold cold weather makes me ill thinking about it now. We are part time farmers really but have a lot of land and how I wish my fella would look at a system like yours !! Roll on Gilroy and enjoy the nights by the fire with your family !!

Gilroy

Molly Bawn wrote: »

You seem to have it all figured out about the disadvantages of winter feeding, the time, the cost etc and your family are lucky that you think like that. I am married to a man who winter feeds and refuses to change or listen to my arguement!! We are getting older with not one of six in family at home with us or interested in farming. The costs of baling silage, the hours put in looking after cattle in sheds and going out in the cold cold weather makes me ill thinking about it now. We are part time farmers really but have a lot of land and how I wish my fella would look at a system like yours !! Roll on Gilroy and enjoy the nights by the fire with your family !!

Mooly Bawn, i dont want to break up marriages!!! or anything like that. I just dont see the point in stress, time, cost over winter months. Life is to short. Trust me i have seen this first hand. Think about it, you are only stopping farming for 2.5 months in total. You can still go to the mart, keep an eye on the prices. Thanks for the support and 2014 will be an interesting year for my method. I just hope it works to plan.

Planning is key in the Feb to Nov method. Without a plan you will fail. The plan most consist of stocking all the land by the 1st week in March. Have calender set targets to work too. Think smarter not harder.

bbam

Gilroy wrote: »

Mooly Bawn, i dont want to break up marriages!!! or anything like that. I just dont see the point in stress, time, cost over winter months. Life is to short. Trust me i have seen this first hand. Think about it, you are only stopping farming for 2.5 months in total. You can still go to the mart, keep an eye on the prices. Thanks for the support and 2014 will be an interesting year for my method. I just hope it works to plan.

Planning is key in the Feb to Nov method. Without a plan you will fail. The plan most consist of stocking all the land by the 1st week in March. Have calender set targets to work too. Think smarter not harder.

Have to farm what you have too..
We're on heavy low lying land and there is no way I could stock from 1st Feb to 1st Nov..

I dont see a big problem with wintering stock appart from the obvious cost associated.. We wouldnt be in big numbers, ~20 weanlings overwintered in one slatted shed.. its old but functional, built in mid 70's. Once there in we'd spend no more than 30 minutes any evening feeding/checking stock and after a day at work dealing with crap its a welcome break.

Pharaoh1

I think there needs to be a bit more reality about the costs involved in summer grazing or indeed any beef enterprise.
Don't have the journal with me at the moment but this week it reports the net margins (not profits) from beef systems and it makes for sobering reading.
People can of course rubbish Teagasc figures and often do but remember these figures are from the profit monitors and the farmers that do these are usually the most progressive ones with many in BTAP.
And these are cold hard facts and figures where costs are properly accounted for. Indeed an ICBF guy at our last BTAP meeting was adamant that seasoned winter finishers would be delighted with a €50 margin per animal.
I summer graze and just to take the cost of trading an animal for example.
Last year I paid €12 buyers comm, €25 agent buying fees and transport from south to midlands, a whopping €20 sellers comm. (unlikely to return to that mart) and €10 transport to mart per animal.
That is €67 and it would take 50 days grazing at 1kg a day to recoup just this cost. Multiply it by 30 cattle and it is over €2000 euro.
Yes I could buy a jeep and trailer and go around to marts myself and try an buy cattle but its not practical for part timers and it probably wouldn't save any money.

The notion that someone with 20 - 30 acres could summer graze 30 cattle and clear €300 a head and end up with €9000 clear profit to add to their SFP/DAS/REPS or whatever simply does not stack up and anyone thinking of going down that route who is thinking along those lines would want to give it very careful consideration.
Anyway just my opinion, if there are farmers out there netting this type of money on this sort of system please let me know your secret.

bbam

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

I think there needs to be a bit more reality about the costs involved in summer grazing or indeed any beef enterprise.
Don't have the journal with me at the moment but this week it reports the net margins (not profits) from beef systems and it makes for sobering reading.
People can of course rubbish Teagasc figures and often do but remember these figures are from the profit monitors and the farmers that do these are usually the most progressive ones with many in BTAP.
And these are cold hard facts and figures where costs are properly accounted for. Indeed an ICBF guy at our last BTAP meeting was adamant that seasoned winter finishers would be delighted with a €50 margin per animal.
I summer graze and just to take the cost of trading an animal for example.
Last year I paid €12 buyers comm, €25 agent buying fees and transport from south to midlands, a whopping €20 sellers comm. (unlikely to return to that mart) and €10 transport to mart per animal.
That is €67 and it would take 50 days grazing at 1kg a day to recoup just this cost. Multiply it by 30 cattle and it is over €2000 euro.
Yes I could buy a jeep and trailer and go around to marts myself and try an buy cattle but its not practical for part timers and it probably wouldn't save any money.

The notion that someone with 20 - 30 acres could summer graze 30 cattle and clear €300 a head and end up with €9000 clear profit to add to their SFP/DAS/REPS or whatever simply does not stack up and anyone thinking of going down that route who is thinking along those lines would want to give it very careful consideration.
Anyway just my opinion, if there are farmers out there netting this type of money on this sort of system please let me know your secret.

Dead right..
I've harped on before but so many lads just trudge on not knowing their actual costs and no real interest in knowing it either..
I'd rather make €100 a head after all costs on plain dry stock than lads selling weanlings for €6-700 in the mart and it costing north of €600 a head to produce them...
do your sums... do them again, and then do them again..

Robson99

I would agree its very hard to make money from sucklers especially when the weanlings produced are not in the top 25%. There is far too many piss poor cattle being produced. It costs the same thing to feed a good one as a bad one.

As regards making money from summer grazing I would agree a lot depends on being able to purchase them early and to get them to grass early. Proper reseeded grass and rotational grazing. However overheads [ so long as your not paying back shed loans or machinery loans ] can be kept low. There is no reason why a yearling heifer or bullock cannot leave at least €250 clear profit in the 9-10 months. At a stocking rate of 1/ac on 30 acres this should leave circa €7500. Not bad considering no major outlay for feed

Gilroy

Robson99 wrote: »

I would agree its very hard to make money from sucklers especially when the weanlings produced are not in the top 25%. There is far too many piss poor cattle being produced. It costs the same thing to feed a good one as a bad one.

As regards making money from summer grazing I would agree a lot depends on being able to purchase them early and to get them to grass early. Proper reseeded grass and rotational grazing. However overheads [ so long as your not paying back shed loans or machinery loans ] can be kept low. There is no reason why a yearling heifer or bullock cannot leave at least €250 clear profit in the 9-10 months. At a stocking rate of 1/ac on 30 acres this should leave circa €7500. Not bad considering no major outlay for feed

Some update..... Sold cattle at Mart yesterday. Average weights 550kg with average €330 per head profit. Not bad for average cattle in first year.

Robson99

Gilroy wrote: »

Some update..... Sold cattle at Mart yesterday. Average weights 550kg with average €330 per head profit. Not bad for average cattle in first year.

What did the ave when bought Gilroy and how long have them?

Gilroy

Robson99 wrote: »

What did the ave when bought Gilroy and how long have them?

Only have them 7 months. Average cost €650.

ellewood

Gilroy wrote: »

Only have them 7 months. Average cost €650.

What weight were they when bought

How much did they sell for

What type of cattle were they??


Thank

simx

Gilroy wrote: »

Only have them 7 months. Average cost €650.

What breeds? Weights?

Gilroy

ellewood wrote: »

What weight were they when bought

How much did they sell for

What type of cattle were they??


Thank

See previous posts......

Fireside Solicitor

We're in the same position as Gilroy but have sheds so gives us flexibility.

Our system is fairly simple.

We aim for a max hold of 9-12 months and to get as many finished off grass as we can. easier said than done.

We typically purchase Sept-Dec at various marts. We buy again in Jan and a bit into Feb for heavier beasts and don't buy from then on as prices go too strong and as one poster said they are lawnmowers.

For housing we only store and keep them ticking over. We don't finish out of the shed and if we do its a handful.

we manage the grass by paddocks, rotating, fert, testing etc and have a dairy neighbour who keeps us on the straight and narrow with grass advice.

We have a set plan for finishing but it always varies but we are not afraid to feed meal on grass to get them finished

We aim to sell regularly from june onwards and be done selling by mid-sept. Again easier said than done but as you are a price taker your only hope is to try and average the market.

We always go for the age bonus and ones that are just not getting there we let go for someone else to try and finish. Your first loss is your best.

we know our costs per day per beast. its not hard. just think what your doing. everything costs.

we weigh the cattle and know what they are doing and how they kill out.

we still don't get to keep the full sfp and thats just a sad reflection of the state of the beef trade. by the time you spend what is needed on keeping the place going thats just the reality.

cattle is very risky game for the money thats at stake. it would be easier to buy shares in the stockmarket and a lot less risk.

we are looking at moving part of the land into tillage and reducing cattle numbers.

dairy is not an option and the land is too good for forestry.

wouldn't rent in a thousand years. you'd be better to keep the sfp and go play football on it.

can't see what is going to change over the next 5 years but only more pressure on costs.

thats my tuppence worth and as part timer.

MfMan

Fireside Solicitor wrote: »

We're in the same position as Gilroy but have sheds so gives us flexibility.

Our system is fairly simple.

We aim for a max hold of 9-12 months and to get as many finished off grass as we can. easier said than done.

We typically purchase Sept-Dec at various marts. We buy again in Jan and a bit into Feb for heavier beasts and don't buy from then on as prices go too strong and as one poster said they are lawnmowers.

For housing we only store and keep them ticking over. We don't finish out of the shed and if we do its a handful.

we manage the grass by paddocks, rotating, fert, testing etc and have a dairy neighbour who keeps us on the straight and narrow with grass advice.

We have a set plan for finishing but it always varies but we are not afraid to feed meal on grass to get them finished

We aim to sell regularly from june onwards and be done selling by mid-sept. Again easier said than done but as you are a price taker your only hope is to try and average the market.

We always go for the age bonus and ones that are just not getting there we let go for someone else to try and finish. Your first loss is your best.

we know our costs per day per beast. its not hard. just think what your doing. everything costs.

we weigh the cattle and know what they are doing and how they kill out.

we still don't get to keep the full sfp and thats just a sad reflection of the state of the beef trade. by the time you spend what is needed on keeping the place going thats just the reality.

cattle is very risky game for the money thats at stake. it would be easier to buy shares in the stockmarket and a lot less risk.

we are looking at moving part of the land into tillage and reducing cattle numbers.

dairy is not an option and the land is too good for forestry.

wouldn't rent in a thousand years. you'd be better to keep the sfp and go play football on it.

can't see what is going to change over the next 5 years but only more pressure on costs.

thats my tuppence worth and as part timer.

Bit in bold is about the only thing I'd disagree with; a lot there that I identify with and do myself. Wouldn't be an entire slave to the QA bonus per animal, it can lead to paying an artificially high price for a beast.