Racing in 2014: 'You have to compete in 6 league races next year before you can race'

ratracer

Howdy folks,

I came across this statement from CramCycle in another thread here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057065559

It may need its own thread, but basically, I know from reading on here that this idea was mooted at the CI AGM last year. Has it definitly come into force for 2014? And as others have asked on the other thread, will there be 6 races league races to take part in between now and Feb/Mar next? Are O.D.L's now a thing of the past?

Lusk_Doyle

You can't have league races at the weekend cos it would take from receipts at open races. You can't have them in the evening until mid April due to light.

How is this meant to work exactly when open racing starts in what, early March?

Harrybelafonte

CramCycle hasn't commented on that thread once, it was Captain Havoc who mentioned it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87115160&postcount=7

daragh_

I would like to see a cite or link to this Rule change before we all go off on one.

Lusk_Doyle

daragh_ wrote: »

I would like to see a cite or link to this Rule change before we all go off on one.

Haven't you heard about not questioning Mods in thread?

Plastik

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

You can't have league races at the weekend cos it would take from receipts at open races. You can't have them in the evening until mid April due to light.

How is this meant to work exactly when open racing starts in what, early March?

This year the Leinster season started in mid-February.

Lusk_Doyle

Plastik wrote: »

This year the Leinster season started in mid-February.

Well that's even worse then. If indeed it is true.

Plastik

From my perspective, based on 2013 ...

17th Feb: First race of season
18th April: First club league race (which was a TT)

... plus six weeks ... June Bank Holiday weekend.

Crazy if true.

wirelessdude01

It is like a mini probation before you are allowed to race.

Harrybelafonte

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

It is like a mini probation before you are allowed to race.

For some, it could mean never getting to race.

Anyway, I suggest we wait for clarification first. I can't find any reference to it on the CI site, but I can never find anything on the CI site.

Sr. Assumpta

daragh_ wrote: »

I would like to see a cite or link to this Rule change before we all go off on one.

Just read through minutes of CI AGM 2013 http://www.cyclingireland.ie/Home/News/2013-AGM-Manual.aspx

and there is no mention of anything about the topic.

bcmf

If it were to become a rule then it would be grossly unfair to those who cannot league/midweek race due to work and family commitments.

Sr. Assumpta

FYI..... CI AGM will be held next Saturday, 26th October, details here... http://www.cyclingireland.ie/Home/News/AGM-2013---Final-notice.aspx so why not come along and get the facts at the coalface, and have your say on the day, instead of, for example, relying on rumours and hearsay... ?

Beasty

Although the AGM does often discuss racing matters, I am guessing this falls under "safety" where the Board and it's sub-committees have the powers to set/agree appropriate rules for racing

There is to be a discussion after the AGM on Saturday and I am sure the safety of racing will be one of the topics covered particularly given issues encountered this year. Having said that, this idae of a 6 race "league probation" is news to me.

As already mentioned leagues cannot kick off under current rules until the clocks change. My view is that the rule restricting Club races to Monday to Thursday is ovedue a review and I think anyone coming into the sport should give club racing a go first. However before any change in rules there probably needs to be some discussion with the clubs as, by the looks of it, they will be the ones responsible for policing this.

ragazzo

daragh_ wrote: »

I would like to see a cite or link to this Rule change before we all go off on one.

Exactly.

One mod on boards mentions something that nobody else seems aware of, provides no source for this snippet, does not attempt to elaborate and everybody discusses it as if it has some merit.

Whilst I agree that riders should have some experience of bunch riding etc before entering a cycle race, I do not see any merit in the captains disclosure.

A4 is for new riders and racing beginners and is mainly fit for purpose. Sometimes the bangers will obtain an A4 licence but this should be frowned upon and is inexcusable.
Limited fields will help to solve early season problems but safe riding is the domain of the riders and their decisions effect the outcomes.

Roll on 2014. Let's hope it leads to safe and competitive racing.

Lusk_Doyle

If I'm elected on Saturday I promise to get rid of the outdated 6 club races before an open race rule!

Politically yours,


Lusk_Doyle

ratracer

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

CramCycle hasn't commented on that thread once, it was Captain Havoc who mentioned it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87115160&postcount=7

Apologies for that, my bad :eek:

Beasty

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

If I'm elected on Saturday I promise to get rid of the outdated 6 club races before an open race rule!

Politically yours,


Lusk_Doyle

You will need "your" club's nomination before you can be elected - and Thailand and Morocco are not options ...

ratracer

Well between this thread and the other one I quoted (even though I credited the quote with the wrong person, sorry CramCycle:( ) I appear to have gotten a satisfactory answer to the query.

Thanks folks.

Lusk_Doyle

Beasty wrote: »

You will need "your" club's nomination before you can be elected - and Thailand and Morocco are not options ...

You seem to be suggesting that this is some sort of a problem. I have received a wealth of letters of support from clubs around the world. A small few, who have vested commercial interests won't stop me from standing for election.

Captain Havoc

Hi, the reason I have not elaborated on this is because I have been at work all day. This is the understanding I have from our club committee, if it is wrong I am sorry to have misinformed you.

wav1

Having sat on a grading review w/shop this summer,i never once heard any suggestion re having to ride any league races prior to competing in open races.The only place i seen this mooted was on various threads in this forum.TBH i cant see it happening for now.

Chips Lovell

I'm unaware of any proposal, but if there were something along these lines, I'd be all for it. I'd even go one step further and say you can't do a club race without being passed for riding in club spins.

The A4 bunch is not the place to learn basic skills.

I'm not sure how you'd enforce such a rule though if it ever were brought in.

Lusk_Doyle

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I'm unaware of any proposal, but if there were something along these lines, I'd be all for it. I'd even go one step further and say you can't do a club race without being passed for riding in club spins.

The A4 bunch is not the place to learn basic skills.

I'm not sure how you'd enforce such a rule though if it ever were brought in.

Sorry Ryan Sherlock, but you haven't participated in the required number of club races this year... We'll see you in June sometime. :pac:

ROK ON

@ vlad.

I have to disagree with some of the sentiments you raise. The introductory grading is precisely where most cyclists should learn to race. In Ireland that is A4.

Your position I feel is influenced by being a member of one of the states largest clubs with a very successful club league.
Prior to I joining that very same club I was a member of club who at the time had a very very small racing membership. For members of that type of club there is often no option of club league racing - by default it must be A4.

Cycling should be seeking to grow even further not restrict growth. I hope that this type of proposal receives short shrift if even it arises.

I think that people need to accept that there is an element of risk to any sport - if you choose to participate then you accept those risks. I accept that cowboy riding can be policed out thru good practice, training, observing and learningfrom your peers. However imposing a rule such as suggested is hamfisted IMHO. It would be far better to use A4 as an actual intro category - maybe have a 10 race limit before mandatory upgrade to A3. Furthermore may e there should be more race commissars in an A4 race - a fact that would obviously have to be paid for out of race entry fee. But of commissars could helpfully point out bad practice to new riders then everyone would win from that.

Just a few thoughts.

Raam

Which group had the most crashes? If we go down that route then the pros are fúckin shíte at riding and need a lot of hand-holding. Of course, I'm only speculating for the reason such a rule might be introduced.

Chips Lovell

ROK ON wrote: »

Your position I feel is influenced by being a member of one of the states largest clubs with a very successful club league.
Prior to I joining that very same club I was a member of club who at the time had a very very small racing membership. For members of that type of club there is often no option of club league racing - by default it must be A4.

Smaller clubs can band together to run beginner leagues.

A4 is an introductory category, but to open racing, not group riding.

At the moment someone can apply for a race licence and find themselves in the middle of a 100 rider bunch with absolutely not training or instruction whatsoever.

Inquitus

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

At the moment someone can apply for a race licence and find themselves in the middle of a 100 rider bunch with absolutely not training or instruction whatsoever.

Indeed and then they get taken out by the longtime A4 racer who went round the blind bend on the wrong side of the road trying to get into position for the sprint he wont place in........and tries to force his way in when the car comes the other way round the bend.

There's alot wrong with the A4 peleton and the blame can be cast far and wide.

ROK ON

Yes they can find themselves in a group with 100 others. I was that soldier and in my very first race I was one of a very significant amount of noobs on that day. Such is life. People are adults and must take responsibility for their actions, abilities and lack thereof.

Beasty

I certainly don't think throwing yourself into fields that can be 100+ strong in the middle of February is the way to go about it. There is no-one to teach you the ropes in Open races - you basically observe and hope you get it right. Club racing is a much better environment - senior club members can keep their eye on what's going on in smaller groups and can take time out to give feedback

People "trying out" racing at A4 level is a recipe for disaster in my view, both for those new to the sport and those they are racing against. Limiting numbers will help but there will still be limited opportunity for proper feedback in open races.

Lusk_Doyle

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Smaller clubs can band together to run beginner leagues.

A4 is an introductory category, but to open racing, not group riding.

At the moment someone can apply for a race licence and find themselves in the middle of a 100 rider bunch with absolutely not training or instruction whatsoever.

Which is very dangerous indeed. I've too much wild riding in my years as an *ahem* A4 racer. How does one get a licence without some sort of exam like with driving?

Chips Lovell

Inquitus wrote: »

Indeed and then they get taken out by the longtime A4 racer who went round the blind bend on the wrong side of the road trying to get into position for the sprint he wont place in........and tries to force his way in when the car comes the other way round the bend.

There's alot wrong with the A4 peleton and the blame can be cast far and wide.

I'm not denying that. But the fact that there are people riding recklessly who should know better doesn't take away from the issue that some newcomers are going in at the deep end with little or no instruction.

We've a lot of people coming into the sport as adults in Ireland. In the continent I think the basic skills are drummed into kids as they're coming up through the ranks.

Inquitus

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I'm not denying that. But the fact that there are people riding recklessly who should know better doesn't take away from the issue that some newcomers are going in at the deep end with little or no instruction.

We've a lot of people coming into the sport as adults in Ireland. In the continent I think the basic skills are drummed into kids as they're coming up through the ranks.

Fair point, but there's poor riding, stupid risk taking, big fields on small courses, bad roads, alot of contributing factors.

TBH far more selective courses would definitely alleviate alot of the issues.

Lusk_Doyle

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I'm not denying that. But the fact that there are people riding recklessly who should know better doesn't take away from the issue that some newcomers are going in at the deep end with little or no instruction.

We've a lot of people coming into the sport as adults in Ireland. In the continent I think the basic skills are drummed into kids as they're coming up through the ranks.

This, unfortunately, is the problem with nearly every aspect of society here IMO. We don't ingrain the correct mindset, mentality or teach the right level of skills in many areas of life, be it sporting or otherwise in this country.

Having said that, Caveat Emptor to the new rider.

Having said that, the licencing body so be on this like a rocket to sort it out.

Lusk_Doyle

Inquitus wrote: »

Fair point, but there's poor riding, stupid risk taking, big fields on small courses, bad roads, alot of contributing factors.

TBH far more selective courses would definitely alleviate alot of the issues.

You mean more hills, right?

derealbadger

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

You mean more hills, right?

Bet he is a skinny fooker

Lusk_Doyle

derealbadger wrote: »

Bet he is a skinny fooker

Who? Me or inquitus?

derealbadger

inquitus

Lusk_Doyle

derealbadger wrote: »

inquitus

Ha ha! Ask him about the first race we did in Donore earlier this year!

derealbadger

Anybody that's looking for more hills is always like an extra from Schindlers list

What happened in Donore

Lusk_Doyle

derealbadger wrote: »

Anybody that's looking for more hills is always like an extra from Schindlers list

What happened in Donore

Some skinny fella gave his slightly more portly frame a right spanking on the hills there.

Inquitus

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Some skinny fella gave his slightly more portly frame a right spanking on the hills there.

I dropped you on the first lap in the wet at Corkagh park around the same time!

So let's define selective. Hilly enough for me to drop the sprinters and with enough gravelly wet turns to leave corners like a London bus Doyle firmly in my wake!

dermabrasion

I rode club season before riding open races. I think it stood to me, but I'm still crap! The reasons for the carnage seen this year are many: better marshalling/rule enforcement, better routes, and limitation of field proportionate to the roads will help.
But, there are a lot of people that a4 is their level. They are not fast enough for a3 (especially with the juniors). My point is this: A4 is a level, not a transient state on the way to A3. Perhaps limiting the number of learner-A4's per race to ?10-15%. It could be achieved by this: when you get your 1st licence you get an A4* designation on your licence. Promoters can only sign on say 10 A4* per field of 80. This can be done through pre-registration which I understand is coming this year. Once you have the required probation done, you go full A4 or up to A3 if you get the points.
This idea assumes that the newbies are the problem, which I know from experience, they are not.