Is Atheist Ireland damaging Atheism?

wretcheddomain

I think, on balance, there doesn't appear to be any positive reason for Atheist Ireland to exist. As a committed atheist myself, I can appreciate that the fact we are atheists is the only common denominator between us all. It's true that the vast majority of atheists will probably espouse secularism, including myself, but you don't need to be an atheist to be a secularist. Indeed, you could have many religious people who support the concept of secularism as a fairer projection of operating a country. Thus, having secularism in common has no bearing on calling a society by the title of Atheist Ireland.

In addition, by referring itself as the spokespeople of atheism, ordinary atheists are effectively tarred by any new initiative they try to propagate. The most salient example of this would be Ethical Atheism, which is probably the greatest oxymoron I've seen on this forum given that the concept is empty by definition. When Atheist Ireland employs strategies such as this, I don't think it does the name of atheism any good and runs counter to the individualism you would expect from atheists i.e. most atheists don't care about evangelising about their non-belief.

I would anticipate that a counter argument against my position would be that the term atheist can be normalised by including it as part of the name. I would object by pointing out that many other methods could be employed in this endeavour and that I don't believe this is reason enough to justify my earlier complaints.

So that's my view, do you think Atheist Ireland as a concept is damaging?

Obliq

I'll start. Nope, I don't think AI is damaging. It's the first time I've had my own secular views represented at a constructive policy level in Ireland, and I feel supported by it. Also delighted that Ireland is now starting to hear that it has atheists. Rock on AI, is my thought on the subject.

SmilingLurker

Atheist Ireland are not damaging at all.

Membership is not compulsory. A group participating and promoting rationalism and secularism? Maybe I should join.

Your supporters detrimental to your cause? I raise you one Breda O Brien, a John Waters, and most religious hierarchies.

Maybe tactically a softer approach might work, but telling people their core beliefs lack any evidence is not ever going to make them comfortable.

A good education system and it will be cleared up in a few generations.

pauldla

I'll ditto Obliq. But enough about my fantasies.

Obliq

pauldla wrote: »

I'll ditto Obliq. But enough about my fantasies.

*splutter*....officially lost for words except those NSFW




Warning:

One of me is challenging, two would be foolhardy. Just ask my OH...

Virgil°

I don't particularly think its damaging really. Although from observing Michael in some conversations here I'm not fond of his mantra of changing the word atheist to mean something else, associating the word with other worldviews.

It's always been one of the strengths of our group, which is that we are a group under nothing else than a lack of belief. And associating us with other worldviews as a whole paints a target on our backs that wasn't there before.

So I'm uneasy about it.

Beruthiel

Any group helping to make headway towards Ireland becoming a secular society has my approval.

wretcheddomain

I understand the sentiments expressed by all posters thus far however I think the point has been missed. I can see many of the positive things that have arisen from Atheist Ireland, many of which are mentioned here, however, this doesn't mean we can whitewash any potential negative effects that the organisation has on atheism and atheist in general.

Virgil revealed another difficulty which is when Atheist Ireland decides on what the definitions of words mean so they can smuggle in other world views into their system. If atheism is ever going to be discussed, chances are a spokesperson from Atheist Ireland will be the group chosen ~ so while it is not intentional as the spokespeople for all atheists, it effectively acts as such given that the ordinary Joe Soap will conflate the two groups.

Rationalism has very little to do with atheism ~ you can be an atheist and be irrational and your atheism could be based on irrational assumptions. There's no reason to suggest that all reasons that atheists become atheist is due to a rational reason.

Some posters above mentioned secularism ~ as I said in my OP, you don't have to be an atheist to be a secularist so, again, I see no exclusive connection between this and Atheist Ireland.

Zubeneschamali

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Some posters above mentioned secularism ~ as I said in my OP, you don't have to be an atheist to be a secularist so, again, I see no exclusive connection between this and Atheist Ireland.

Do you know any atheists who are opposed to secularism?

Obliq

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Some posters above mentioned secularism ~ as I said in my OP, you don't have to be an atheist to be a secularist so, again, I see no exclusive connection between this and Atheist Ireland.

Sometimes (not often), a religious group or representative says something I can agree wholeheartedly with. When that happens, I do not wish that they were atheist so that I can more fully support them. In turn, I'm sure that religious secularists will have no problem supporting the secular recommendations put forward by AI just because they are an atheist organisation.

TBH, an atheist organisation is the operative term, for me. They are a collection of atheists geared towards achieving a more secular republic, and as such, I either agree with them or I don't. I have no ownership over the word atheist just because I am one - similarly, I have no ownership over the word feminist just because I am one. You seem afraid that the word "atheist" may come to mean something in people's minds that you can't agree with because a collection of atheists are promoting what links them, but it still does/will mean what you individually want it to mean.

wretcheddomain

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Do you know any atheists who are opposed to secularism?

Luckily you quoted the right part of my earlier post where I said "no exclusive connection" and that you don't necessarily need to be an "atheist to be a secularist". There should have been enough information there to have allowed you to adduce the answer to the question posed.

Links234

Virgil° wrote: »

Although from observing Michael in some conversations here I'm not fond of his mantra of changing the word atheist to mean something else, associating the word with other worldviews.

Can you elaborate on that?

magicbastarder

wretcheddomain wrote: »

The most salient example of this would be Ethical Atheism, which is probably the greatest oxymoron I've seen on this forum given that the concept is empty by definition. When Atheist Ireland employs strategies such as this, I don't think it does the name of atheism any good and runs counter to the individualism you would expect from atheists i.e. most atheists don't care about evangelising about their non-belief.

i dunno; i assume (without knowing more about this campaign) that 'ethical atheism' and humanism would be moderately interchangeable; in that they were set up to challenge the notion that religion can be the only source of morals or ethics.
is it a campaign to disprove the notion that atheism implies amoralism?

iDave

Atheists are still a minority and like any minority it makes sense for them to come to together and create a lobby group to campaign in areas of interest and ensure we're guaranteed civil rights.
As for the secularism campaign, well yes atheists aren't alone in believing that's how a society should structure itself, however just because we are not alone doesn't mean we cant independently campaign for it.
Actually how do I become a member?

Zillah

I am very uncomfortable with the lack of mandate. That combined with a title that implies it is representative causes a conflict for me. No one has the right to presume to speak for a large group of unaffiliated people. I agree with most of what they represent, but not all. I don't like their proposal to teach a class on atheism, and yet now public opinion is that atheists are advocating for that.

Secularism Ireland I can get behind. Atheist Ireland I'm not comfortable with.

Stereomaniac

I am interested also to know how one goes about becoming a member of Atheist Ireland, are there requirements?

Obliq

Stereomaniac wrote: »

I am interested also to know how one goes about becoming a member of Atheist Ireland, are there requirements?

A small fee, I believe.

Geomy

Does anyone know the Gaelic for Atheism ?

wretcheddomain

Stereomaniac wrote: »

are there requirements?

- Male Only
- > 35 Years Old
- Need to own a signed copy of the God Delusion
- 4 Kids
- €250 deposit with another €5,000 to be spread out over 2 years.
- Need to have posted no antagonistic post against Atheist Ireland
- Oath of Allegiance to Michael Nugent
- Wear a Red T-Shirt/Jumper at each AI Event in honour of the Right Non-Reverend Nugent

wretcheddomain

Geomy wrote: »

Does anyone know the Gaelic for Atheism ?

Dia Dhuit

Obliq

Geomy wrote: »

Does anyone know the Gaelic for Atheism ?

Gan Dia?

wretcheddomain wrote: »

- Male Only
- > 35 Years Old
- Need to own a signed copy of the God Delusion
- 4 Kids
- €250 deposit with another €5,000 to be spread out over 2 years.
- Need to have posted no antagonistic post against Atheist Ireland
- Oath of Allegiance to Michael Nugent
- Wear a Red T-Shirt/Jumper at each AI Event in honour of the Right Non-Reverend Nugent

That log on your shoulder must be weighing you down :rolleyes:

Geomy

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Dia Dhuit

Ta me go maith.
Is maith liom ag iascreacht agus ta se ag cur bastai...

My take on atheism Ireland ;-)

Geomy

Obliq wrote: »

Gan Dia?

Go maith :-)

Zubeneschamali

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Luckily you quoted the right part of my earlier post where I said "no exclusive connection" and that you don't necessarily need to be an "atheist to be a secularist". There should have been enough information there to have allowed you to adduce the answer to the question posed.

I'll take that as a no.

Morag

http://www.atheist.ie/information/join/

There is a 25 quid/ 10 quid unwaged annual membership fee.



If anyone was to set up Secular Ireland I would be interested in joining.

wretcheddomain

Morag wrote: »

If anyone was to set up Secular Ireland I would be interested in joining.

Indeed, can't all the main aims of Atheist Ireland more suitably fall under the term Secularism Ireland? In fact, it could be argued that Secularism Ireland is a much more apt name for these aims than Atheist Ireland, when the word Atheist implies no more than a disbelief in God [if you want to politely attach secularism to atheism, you can, but in the strictest terms, it cannot be attached].

Virgil°

Links234 wrote: »

Can you elaborate on that?

Well they weren't my words. I'll see if I can dig up the relevant posts from Michael this evening.

wretcheddomain

Virgil° wrote: »

Well they weren't my words. I'll see if I can dig up the relevant posts from Michael this evening.

Draft Manifesto to Promote Ethical Atheism

recedite

Geomy wrote: »

Does anyone know the Gaelic for Atheism ?

I happen to have a copy of De Bhaldraithe which is considered the definitive dictionary, and the answer is Aindiachaí.
The prefix "ain" is used in Irish to denote the opposite of something which is normally considered good or virtuous. Its a bit like the word "false" or more precisely "ersatz" being used in the negative sense.
So we also have;

ainbheart (evil deed)
ainbheas (bad habit)
ainbhiosán (ignorant/stupid person)
ainbhreith (unjust)
ainchleachta (inexperience)
ainchríostaí (unchristian/uncharitable person)
ainciseach (malignant person)
and my personal favourite; ainbhlinn (froth from the mouth of a decaying corpse) perhaps the opposite to lifeblood?

What was that about the term "ethical atheist" being an oxymoron?
It certainly is in Irish. Maybe we do need someone like Michael to look after our PR after all.

Bannasidhe

I have mixed feelings but on balance I think it is a good thing as our State is structured in such a way that assumes everyone believes in God.

I have mixed feelings about LGBT lobby groups but they are also necessary until our State stops assuming everyone is heterosexual and in the 'correct' gendered body from birth and any who isn't should be content with second class citizenship.

I have mixed feelings about Feminist lobby groups (to put is mildly) but they are still necessary until actual equality has been achieved and those who view women as subject to men are looked upon by society in general as a kind of gender version of the KKK.

Do I agree with everything AI says - Hell no! Am I glad they are lobbying and trying to change things? Hell YES.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

wretcheddomain wrote: »

I think, on balance, there doesn't appear to be any positive reason for Atheist Ireland to exist.

I think it's nearly inevitable that people will form groups, and that those groups will want to construct some common mythology with some affirming central theme. Of course, that's not to say that we shouldn't make fun of them, when they do.

wretcheddomain wrote: »

<...>you don't need to be an atheist to be a secularist. Indeed, you could have many religious people who support the concept of secularism as a fairer projection of operating a country. Thus, having secularism in common has no bearing on calling a society by the title of Atheist Ireland.

Absolutely. Atheists trying to frame a secularist agenda on their own? I'd suggest that just displays they've missed the point.

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Ethical Atheism < ...> is probably the greatest oxymoron I've seen on this forum given that the concept is empty by definition.

I've generally seen the term "Ethical Atheism" as evidence that someone sees the problem, but has no idea how to solve it.

PopePalpatine

recedite wrote: »

I happen to have a copy of De Bhaldraithe which is considered the definitive dictionary, and the answer is Aindiachaí.
The prefix "ain" is used in Irish to denote the opposite of something which is normally considered good or virtuous. Its a bit like the word "false" or more precisely "ersatz" being used in the negative sense.

That's setting off the old "Irish is the language of the über-conservative" alarm bells for me. :pac:

An Riabhach

I am delighted that Atheist Ireland exists.It gives us some kind of a voice and I think that such an organisation can only benefit us and strengthen our rights as Atheists and really put it out there.

Bannasidhe

PopePalpatine wrote: »

That's setting off the old "Irish is the language of the über-conservative" alarm bells for me. :pac:

Indeed.

Especially when the 'conservative' Gaelic Irish spent most of their time shagging, drinking, divorcing and stealing each other's cattle.
They were 'conservative' only in that they had a way of life that suited them and wanted to be able to continue to shag, drink, divorce and steal each other's cattle.

Michael Nugent

Thanks to everyone for the feedback.

Wretcheddomain, thanks for reminding people about the ethical atheism

I’m pretty busy today, but I’ll join the discussion as soon as I can.

PopePalpatine

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Indeed.

Especially when the 'conservative' Gaelic Irish spent most of their time shagging, drinking, divorcing and stealing each other's cattle.
They were 'conservative' only in that they had a way of life that suited them and wanted to be able to continue to shag, drink, divorce and steal each other's cattle.

I was thinking more along the lines of Dev and the Gaelic League/[insert Irish quango here].

Bannasidhe

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I was thinking more along the lines of Dev and the Gaelic League/[insert Irish quango here].

I know. They are the reason most Irish people don't know that their ancestors were fighting to retain the right to shag, drink, divorce and steal each other's cattle.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Ah, here. They were never your cattle.

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Ah, here. They were never your cattle.

I don't think anyone could remember whose cattle they were to begin with...

PopePalpatine

Maybe an epic poem will sort things out? :pac:

endacl

I don't get the question...

How can 'atheism' be damaged? Is it a movement now? I haven't paid a sub.

Nodin

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't think anyone could remember whose cattle they were to begin with...

It was never a question of whose they were, but whose they are now....

endacl

PopePalpatine wrote: »

That's setting off the old "Irish is the language of the über-conservative" alarm bells for me. :pac:

There's another trend I'm bucking. I really need to get my 'teach' in order.

Sarky

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Maybe an epic poem will sort things out? :pac:

Maybe we could just get drunk, shag, put aside our differences and team up to steal someone else's cattle?

Bannasidhe

Sarky wrote: »

Maybe we could just get drunk, shag, put aside our differences and team up to steal someone else's cattle?

I'm in.

Hmmm...there may be trouble ahead...

No. No. No.


yes.yes.yes.

Sarky

Pfft, we can always get divorced straight after...

smacl

Sarky wrote: »

Maybe we could just get drunk, shag, put aside our differences and team up to steal someone else's cattle?

Noble and all as Atheist Ireland's manifesto appears, yours definitely wins my vote. I propose Atheist Ireland gets renamed Secularist Ireland and we start a new group called Sarky Atheists lest there be any confusion

Bannasidhe

Sarky wrote: »

Pfft, we can always get divorced straight after...

OH says No.

Jeeze...it's not like I'm married to her like. All the 'hassle' none of the tax credits. :mad:

Tomk1

Stereomaniac wrote: »

I am interested also to know how one goes about becoming a member of Atheist Ireland, are there requirements?

Do you believe in a god or gods? if answer is no then that's it.
You don't have to be a member (small membership fee/yr, I haven't got around to renewing my fee but still a full membership)
---
on OP Q:
Atheist Ireland has held international meetings here in catholic-Ireland with world leading Atheists visiting our wee land, some amazing talks.

The Blasphemy Walk (I was involved in the walk) a concept of AI not only highlighted an oppressive Irish Law but gave a chance to meet Atheist all over the country that had no voice, one fellow spoke to us, didn't want go on record, that he worked on Sunday so he didn't have to go to Mass with his wife & children, as an Atheist hiding in the shadows, he thanked us.

Part of the walk in meeting many christians, their view was after talking, one of respect for voicing our viewpoint against the Blasphany Law including priests saying that law shouldn't be used to enforce faith.

Since AI other local groups formed (a part of the AI charter) UCCatheists won an award, after many members then formed CorkHumanists a succestfull group in their right independent of AI & the then Dublin-based Humanist Ireland, which pre-AI might as well off been Humanist Dublin, one effect AI had was to get Humanist Ireland to become move active and countrywide.

On education: AI has highlighted the problems of religious-state funded schools, supported Educate Together (multi-denominational religiouseducation) which have been a huge success, Paul Rowe pushed for changes in the inter-cert exam which has happened.

In Media, since AI's voice being heard on many radio stations, many top presenters do not fear stating they are Atheist or Agnostic when talking about religious issues, they get on with the show, the onshot better informative debates.

Before AI, the only voice in Ireland was right here inside this forum.

OP if you have personel issuse with Micheal, that does not include the many dedicated members whom have given up hours n' hours of their free time in pushing for their voice to be heard, any direction by AI, has always been a community voted undertaking, with every viewpoint heard and debated. Myself I do not have the sheer guts or determination n' couldn't do what Micheal has done sofar.

So what was that question again?
IMO pre-AI to post-AI, the Q is nonsense.

smacl

@TomK1, pedantic maybe, but why do you capitalize the words atheist and agnostic. From this where I'm sitting, you're treating these words as proper nouns which I don't believe they are, and as such conferring a meaning that is not broadly accepted outside of self declared atheist organisations.

As per Zillah previously, I like most of what Atheist Ireland is about, except for the name and what it seems to be implying, i.e. that it speaks for all atheists in Ireland.

robindch

wretcheddomain wrote: »

In addition, by referring itself as the spokespeople of atheism, ordinary atheists are effectively tarred by any new initiative they try to propagate.

I'm open to correction here, but AI has been quite specific in saying many times that it represents the views of its members, and that it does not speak on behalf of all atheists in Ireland.

wretcheddomain wrote: »

The most salient example of this would be Ethical Atheism, which is probably the greatest oxymoron I've seen on this forum given that the concept is empty by definition.

Given that religions claim almost universally to provide a basis for moral duties and values in society, it's hardly surprising that an organization which refutes religion should think it useful to provide its own framework for moral duties and values.

That said, while EA's goals are admirable, I think that (a) it may run into political trouble because of apparent similarities to the discredited Atheism-plus movement and (b) more generally, it scatters its fire far too wide upon too many targets, so I think they'll have a hard time gaining traction any time soon. Which is a pity because its sentiments are succinct and, as above, thoroughly admirable.