Penalty points for doctors on call making urgent calls to their hospital?

liam100

Does anybody know what the situation is relation to penalty points for doctors on call making urgent calls to their base hospital? I'm a consultant anaesthetist based in Waterford city and have received 2 penalty points on 2 occasions within the past 12 months for driving at speeds of 60 and 62Km/h at night when called to review sick patients at my hospital. I don't regard these speeds as excessively fast. Ambulances don't get penalty points. Are there any doctors out there with a similar experience? Is there a remedy for this?

Mycroft H

I don't think so. Your not an emergency vehicle and your not entitled to claim exemptions under the road traffic acts.

However, I'm presuming that this is a Speed camera and not a Garda that stopped you because surely a bit of discretion could be used in these cases. You could try argue your case in front of court, you may get some discretion shown there considering it was a genuine reason.

the_syco

liam100 wrote: »

have received 2 penalty points on 2 occasions within the past 12 months for driving at speeds of 60 and 62Km/h at night when called to review sick patients at my hospital. I don't regard these speeds as excessively fast.

Context is everything. Are we talking 60 in a 50 zone, or 60 in a built up 30 zone?

liam100 wrote: »

Ambulances don't get penalty points. Are there any doctors out there with a similar experience? Is there a remedy for this?

Ambulances warn others with sirens and blue flashing lights. Something which you don't have.

the_syco

liam100 wrote: »

I don't regard these speeds as excessively fast.

Say this in court, and the judge will probably double the points!

delly

Official emergency workers in hi vis vehicles, with lights and sirens, are a lot different to you in your private car. I'm not saying that either job is more important, but you have to recognise there is a difference. It is the same for the RNLI and other such services. That been said, I would hope that any Garda would use a little bit of discretion.

Yakuza

AFAIK, some of the penalty points that were removed in the revelations by the lefty TDs did involve medical emergencies, so there is definitely precedent to have them quashed.

http://philipboucher-hayes.com/2013/05/15/garda-report-on-quashing-of-penalty-points/ - 20% of cases of quashed points were done on medical grounds.
http://www.thejournal.ie/gardai-penalty-points-cancellation-910341-May2013/

slimjimmc

liam100 wrote: »

Does anybody know what the situation is relation to penalty points for doctors on call making urgent calls to their base hospital? I'm a consultant anaesthetist based in Waterford city and have received 2 penalty points on 2 occasions within the past 12 months for driving at speeds of 60 and 62Km/h at night when called to review sick patients at my hospital. I don't regard these speeds as excessively fast. Ambulances don't get penalty points. Are there any doctors out there with a similar experience? Is there a remedy for this?

I know it'll be hard to do when you're keen to get to a patient quickly but your remedy is to drive within the speed limit or live closer to the hospital. You have to consider that if you continue clocking up penalty points at this rate you may not have a licence in an year or two and how will you get to hospital then?

power pants

in the uk you can fit a light to your car if you are a doctor, think it is a green flashing light?

Mycroft H

power pants wrote: »

in the uk you can fit a light to your car if you are a doctor, think it is a green flashing light?

Nothing in the legislation for that here.

Mikros

liam100 wrote: »

Does anybody know what the situation is relation to penalty points for doctors on call making urgent calls to their base hospital? I'm a consultant anaesthetist based in Waterford city and have received 2 penalty points on 2 occasions within the past 12 months for driving at speeds of 60 and 62Km/h at night when called to review sick patients at my hospital. I don't regard these speeds as excessively fast. Ambulances don't get penalty points. Are there any doctors out there with a similar experience? Is there a remedy for this?

While I do have some sympathy - you have no exemption under the Road Traffic Acts and are subject to the speed limit like anyone else. Emergency vehicles have lights and sirens and trained response drivers. There is no point tearing out onto the road if you are putting other road users at risk. I mean that in a general sense and not your specific speeding.

Another thing is how urgent are your patient reviews? 10 km/h faster for a 10 km journey is only going to save you 2 minutes. If that is the margin of time that your presence makes a difference there are bigger questions for the hospital to answer. For a genuine life or death once off I'd imagine a Judge or Guard would look favourably on it - otherwise your in the same boat as the rest of the motoring public I'm afraid.

deandean

Suggest you need to take it up with the garda on a 1 to 1 basise make your case in front of the judge. You'll probably get away with one incident but if you make a habit of this you are going to be screwed.

Del2005

power pants wrote: »

in the uk you can fit a light to your car if you are a doctor, think it is a green flashing light?

The out of hours doctors cars here have green beacons. That doesn't mean that they are exempt from the road traffic legislation, IIRC the beacons are actually illegal, but it's hoped that other motorists will pull over to allow them pass. The only vehicles which can speed are Garda, Ambulance and Fire. But they still have speed limiters on Ambulances and Fire Engines.

Mycroft H

Del2005 wrote: »

But they still have speed limiters on Ambulances and Fire Engines.

Nope, they don't. Limited by gearing and power at the end of the day like any other car.

biko

Interesting question but I don't think you can get away with driving over the speed limit to get to an emergency patient.
There's a big difference between and ambulance and a doctor's car.
However, plead with the judge and she/he might just strike the tickets out.

Green light usage in UK doesn't allow doctor's there to break speed limit so it's not going to happen here.

liam100

Thanks for all the replies. I should have made it clear that I was talking about speed cameras. I'm a 15 minute drive from the hospital which is as close as I can be. In future I'll drive at 50 Km/h to an anaesthetic emergency.

serious3

Mikros wrote: »

While I do have some sympathy - you have no exemption under the Road Traffic Acts and are subject to the speed limit like anyone else. Emergency vehicles have lights and sirens and trained response drivers. There is no point tearing out onto the road if you are putting other road users at risk. I mean that in a general sense and not your specific speeding.

Another thing is how urgent are your patient reviews? 10 km/h faster for a 10 km journey is only going to save you 2 minutes. If that is the margin of time that your presence makes a difference there are bigger questions for the hospital to answer. For a genuine life or death once off I'd imagine a Judge or Guard would look favourably on it - otherwise your in the same boat as the rest of the motoring public I'm afraid.

try holding your breath for two minutes, try having your heart stopped for two minutes, the difference between life and death is a lot less than two minutes, i for one think its ridiculous that people are getting on their high horses about speeding when its a genuine emergency, FFS lads this guy could be the difference in you living or dieing on the table.

Fey!

This may sound daft, but have you considered a handsfree unit or even the headset tht came with your phone? Might save you a lot of hassle, and they're legal.

guttenberg

Fey! wrote: »

This may sound daft, but have you considered a handsfree unit or even the headset tht came with your phone? Might save you a lot of hassle, and they're legal.

I think you've misread the OP;)

Mikros

serious3 wrote: »

try holding your breath for two minutes, try having your heart stopped for two minutes, the difference between life and death is a lot less than two minutes, i for one think its ridiculous that people are getting on their high horses about speeding when its a genuine emergency, FFS lads this guy could be the difference in you living or dieing on the table.

Of course in a genuine emergency situation that doesn't apply - but I doubt he is the only Doctor in the hospital and while he might need to come in to see a patient at short notice it shouldn't be question of life or death where 2 minutes is at play. Otherwise speeding is the least of the problems - what about red lights? or slow moving traffic? How much increased risk to other road users is acceptable? That is the reason emergency vehicles have lights and sirens and trained drivers. If a hospital is relying on a doctor 15 minutes away to regularly respond to life or death emergencies the problem lies with the hospital and having sufficient staff on site. Nothing to do with high horses.

slimjimmc

serious3 wrote: »

try holding your breath for two minutes, try having your heart stopped for two minutes, the difference between life and death is a lot less than two minutes, i for one think its ridiculous that people are getting on their high horses about speeding when its a genuine emergency, FFS lads this guy could be the difference in you living or dieing on the table.

or he could also be the while difference in you living or dying you're crossing the street!

No one is riding high (expect possibly yourself), but the fact of the matter is the OP is just an ordinary civilian driving an ordinary civilian car as far as traffic law is concerned. He is not an emergency service and therefore has to comply with the same laws as the rest of us.

So, what practical advice are you offering the OP? Do you suggest he continues to earn points until he loses his licence and has to wait for a taxi when on call?

Del2005

BX 19 wrote: »

Nope, they don't. Limited by gearing and power at the end of the day like any other car.

All commercial vehicles are restricted. They can't go over 90km/h.

Mycroft H

Del2005 wrote: »

All commercial vehicles are restricted. They can't go over 90km/h.

I've driven ambulances. They're not restricted.

HSE ones will top out at 140km/h ish.

S.I. No. 831/2005 - European Communities (Installation and Use of Speed Limitation Devices in Motor Vehicles) Regulations 2005

“speed limitation device” means a device whose primary function is to control the fuel feed to the engine in order to limit the vehicle speed to the specified value;

“passenger vehicle” means a vehicle having seating accommodation for more than 8 persons exclusive of the driver;

“type approval Directive” means Council Directive 92/24/EEC of 31 March 19922 , as amended by Directive 2004/11/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 February 20044 ;

“vehicle” means a mechanically propelled vehicle having at least four wheels and a maximum design speed exceeding 25 kilometres per hour.

(2) In these Regulations -

(a) a reference to a Regulation or Schedule is to a Regulation of, or Schedule to, these Regulations, unless it is indicated that reference to some other Regulations is intended and

(b) a reference to a paragraph or subparagraph is a reference to a paragraph or subparagraph of the provision in which the reference occurs, unless it is indicated that reference to some other provision is intended.

3. (1) Subject to paragraph (2), these Regulations apply to vehicles of the classes specified in column (2) of the Schedule at any reference number.

(2) These Regulations do not apply to -

(a) goods vehicles which by reason of their construction are incapable of being driven at a speed exceeding 90 kilometres per hour,

(b) passenger vehicles which by reason of their construction are incapable of being driven at a speed exceeding 100 kilometres per hour,

(c) vehicles which are used for official purposes by the Defence Forces, Garda Síochána, Civil Defence, Fire Services or other emergency services,

(d) vehicles which are used for scientific tests for which permits under Regulation 60 of the Road Traffic (Construction and Use of Vehicles) Regulations 2003 ( S.I. No. 5 of 2003 have been issued, or

(e) vehicles of a class specified in column (2) of the Schedule at any reference number in column (1) which were first registered prior to the date specified in column (5) opposite that reference number.

Senecio

Not having a go OP. But if your job really is that important the hospital should have an anesthetist on site, not on call.

drkpower

Senecio wrote: »

Not having a go OP. But if your job really is that important the hospital should have an anesthetist on site, not on call.

I would expect that there are other (non consultant) anaesthetists on site; but presumably on occasion, extremely urgent issues arise that the registrar cannot manage, or needs assistance with. In those situations the consultants presence might be needed immediately.

In fairness though, the law cannot really create a blanket exemption for use by medics. That would be open to abuse far too easily. One would hope that if there were a case where the situation was genuinely of the utmost urgency, a judge would use discretion. Isn't this one of those cases where Garda/superintendent discretion might be used?

djimi

Senecio wrote: »

Not having a go OP. But if your job really is that important the hospital should have an anesthetist on site, not on call.

Or if the doctor must be on call then make sure that they live closer than a 15 minute drive away...

GTE

Del2005 wrote: »

All commercial vehicles are restricted. They can't go over 90km/h.

Oh my, I wouldn't like to see the day that an ambulance becomes a commercial vehicle. :pac:

Days 298

60 in a 50 at nighttime! Are you sure youre not a boyracer?

the_syco

serious3 wrote: »

FFS lads this guy could be the difference in you living or dieing on the table.

Yes. Hitting my car because he went too fast. Hitting the pedestrian that never saw the OP coming around the corner as he was going too fast. He seems to be of the opinion that he should be allowed to speed because he's a doctor.

Also, were you called in at short notice, or did you speed because you were late?

ironclaw

the_syco wrote: »

Yes. Hitting my car because he went too fast. Hitting the pedestrian that never saw the OP coming around the corner as he was going too fast. He seems to be of the opinion that he should be allowed to speed because he's a doctor.

Also, were you called in at short notice, or did you speed because you were late?

You could easily replace the word 'doctor' with Garda and it would be the same outcome. Many marked and unmarked units will proceed at speed without lights or blues under certain circumstances. So its case equal for the 'danger' to others.

Personally have no issue with a doctor on call proceeding at a safe but above the limit speed. Would be very easy to certify or license those that needed that ability.

Awfully high horses around here I have to say.

Anyway, on topic, there was a case in Vincents I think where the Gardai actually pursued a doctor and tried to arrest him after the diagnosis / surgery. Was thrown out in court I believe. Any Garda stopping a doctor proceeding to a hospital would probably exercise discretion and probably even go as far as to offer an escort. A speed camera van, forget it. I'd just take the points.

GTE

the_syco wrote: »

Also, were you called in at short notice, or did you speed because you were late?

I appreciate that style of writing is popular on message boards, maybe because of a warm fuzzy feeling one gets jumping on a cynical viewpoint thinking it is popular or showing off how well one can stir the s**t but he said he was called in on the instances he is talking about. :rolleyes:

You're also stating as fact that the OP would go around corners and other dangerous places over the speed limit. What is that based off? He admitted he was speeding but not consistently over the course of the limited zone. Anyway, I highly doubt a regular boardsie member would be in a position to objectively apply discretion in a case like this. Import word is that.

You do not have to go far on the Motors forum to find complaints about stretches of roads that can take a higher limit and that speed vans are being placed in advantageous places in terms of revenue over safety. So with that in mind, one can see the limits which internet forums have in discussing things rationally, serious limits.

Anyone who thinks a doctor should not be allowed speed on route to an emergency is someone who doesn't deserve an opinion.

oldyouth

the_syco wrote: »

Yes. Hitting my car because he went too fast. Hitting the pedestrian that never saw the OP coming around the corner as he was going too fast. He seems to be of the opinion that he should be allowed to speed because he's a doctor.

Also, were you called in at short notice, or did you speed because you were late?

Exactly. The speed limits are there as a regulation on what is safe and what is not. Their intention is to protect the majority of road users. Being a doctor does not make you a better driver to cope with with the same road conditions we all face.

Op, have you done the advanced driving courses that ambulance & fire truck drivers take?

Esel

Amelia Whispering Cheesecake wrote: »

Anyone who thinks a doctor should not be allowed speed on route to an emergency is someone who doesn't deserve an opinion.

I'd like a second opinion on that.

Mikros

bbk wrote: »

You do not have to go far on the Motors forum to find complaints about stretches of roads that can take a higher limit and that speed vans are being placed in advantageous places in terms of revenue over safety. So with that in mind, one can see the limits which internet forums have in discussing things rationally, serious limits.

I'd agree there are many roads with poorly set speed limits - some too high, some too low. But I think the point is that just because the OP is a Doctor it does not entitle him to an exemption to the road traffic laws we all have to follow. And rightly so IMO - he has no specific training or an appropriate vehicle to drive in an emergency response manner which does pose an objectively higher risk to other road users.

If there is a genuine emergency and he chooses to speed he has the same avenues open to any of us to contest and explain his actions.

GTE

oldyouth wrote: »

Op, have you done the advanced driving courses that ambulance & fire truck drivers take?

Well now, that is a good point!

ironclaw

Mikros wrote: »

he has no specific training or an appropriate vehicle to drive in an emergency response manner which does pose an objectively higher risk to other road users.

Specific training? In Ireland? Doesn't exist in my eyes. I've seen many Gardai make very poor decisions when on blues and twos. Very unprofessional and borderline dangerous. The ambulance driving training wouldn't give me faith in someone who wasn't regularly practising it, that said I have no issue with the majority of ambulances (Remembering of course they would be at a generally lower speed than say a Garda car)

Think it should also be pointed out that a doctor on call would be generally out of hours and at night, which would mitigate the risk some what. I doubt many doctors themselves would be happy to scream through town at 100km/h anyway.

Mikros

ironclaw wrote: »

Specific training? In Ireland? Doesn't exist in my eyes. I've seen many Gardai make very poor decisions when on blues and twos. Very unprofessional and borderline dangerous. The ambulance driving training wouldn't give me faith in someone who wasn't regularly practising it, that said I have no issue with the majority of ambulances (Remembering of course they would be at a generally lower speed than say a Garda car)

Think it should also be pointed out that a doctor on call would be generally out of hours and at night, which would mitigate the risk some what. I doubt many doctors themselves would be happy to scream through town at 100km/h anyway.

There is training in Ireland, you can debate the quality if you want but it's hardly an argument for saying he doesn't need any. And how you think driving at night mitigates the risk is beyond me when you see how many serious collisions occur late at night. It's not your driving that might be the problem, it's the drunk driver or pedestrian that is on the road. Who is at fault is small consolation if someone is hurt.

the_syco

bbk wrote: »

He admitted he was speeding but not consistently over the course of the limited zone.

I may apologize when he states on what roads/speed limits he was driving on.

His opinion is that he shouldn't get points because he's a consultant anaesthetist, and thus they should be struck off. I disagree that ones profession should give them an automatic "get of jail free" card.

=-=

Regarding the Gardai; they don't have to follow the rules of the road whilst working.

GTE

Mikros wrote: »

I'd agree there are many roads with poorly set speed limits - some too high, some too low. But I think the point is that just because the OP is a Doctor it does not entitle him to an exemption to the road traffic laws we all have to follow. And rightly so IMO - he has no specific training or an appropriate vehicle to drive in an emergency response manner which does pose an objectively higher risk to other road users.

If there is a genuine emergency and he chooses to speed he has the same avenues open to any of us to contest and explain his actions.

Well, you're right about driving training but wrong about what the point is, that is just an aspect of what the situation is.

At the very least it should start a debate about how a Doctor should be given the ability to get through traffic better, at least that is how I have read the reasoned part of the thread.

Speeding in unsafe zones is indeed a bad idea for the untrained (and who knows the state of the car) and speeding on a road that can easily take a faster speed can be seen with discretion by the the person handing out points and fines but why is the emergency beacon for Doctors vehicles not gaining more traction in the thread?

With that, at least other road users know to get out of the way for the car with the beacon, okay they may not pull away like we would expect the Gardai to but at least that is another blockage out of the Docs way.

At least that is something to have debate about, the options that could be implemented. Instead we have a thread with handbags on one side, keyboards jousters on the other with tall horses depositing rubbish around the place. For instance, an apology "may" be handed out for making an unfair comment which was based on nothing at all. :rolleyes:

Esel

bbk wrote: »

At the very least it should start a debate about how a Doctor should be given the ability to get through traffic better, at least that is how I have read the reasoned part of the thread.

Not junior doctors who have just come off a 36 hour shift though! :eek:

GTE

Esel wrote: »

Not junior doctors who have just come off a 36 hour shift though! :eek:

Hopefully they are going home and not getting called back in.