sick of whinging pensioners

July Rain

I am sick of all the oaps whinging about the budget. The telephone allowance works out at €2.20 per week. Is there really any oap that cant afford €2.20 pw out of their pension ? The pension is the only welfare payment that has never been cut during the economic crisis. Payments for children were cut for 6 budgets in a row, it is only fair that oaps take a little hit.

chopper6

The pensioners should be left alone IMO.

This culture of looking for people to hurt financially is getting a bit sickening.

Nobdoy ever points out that they shouldnt have to take a hit if the poxy FF govt hadn't destroyed the country.

The old folk have served thier country and paid thier taxes,at least let them have some semblance of dignity in old age.

Vision of Disorder

chopper6 wrote: »

Nobdoy ever points out that they shouldnt have to take a hit if the poxy FF govt hadn't destroyed the country.

To be fair FG/Labour never tire of pointing this out (accurately I'll grant you)!

Sleepy

Or if FF hadn't excessively ramped up their social welfare payments in exchange for their votes...

littleredspot

Or if the Oap's hadn't voted Fianna Fail in so often...

LOSTfan57

Respecting the elderly is a forgotten sentiment I guess....thats a sad indicment

maringo

Many older people like myself are now financially supporting our younger family members who are affected very badly by job loss, wage cuts, huge mortgages and the expenses that go with living in this godfosaken country. Its not helpful to pit one generation against another.

gaius c

chopper6 wrote: »

The pensioners should be left alone IMO.

This culture of looking for people to hurt financially is getting a bit sickening.

Nobdoy ever points out that they shouldnt have to take a hit if the poxy FF govt hadn't destroyed the country.

The old folk have served thier country and paid thier taxes,at least let them have some semblance of dignity in old age.

As Brian Cowen was fond of saying "we're all in this together".

Idbatterim

The pensioners should be left alone IMO.

This culture of looking for people to hurt financially is getting a bit sickening.

ok so who do you want to target if the pensioners are left alone? I'm sure we would all prefer if nobody had be touched, but you cant shield one group in society from the current crisis and leave the rest to suffer. They get E230 per week is it? Food would cost what 40-50 a week? they have free travel. At this stage should own their own home (and most do). There is an electricity allowance. All I am saying is at E230 it is nowhere near subsistence living, it is actually very comfortable in my opinion once they are in any way savy with money...

Suryavarman

chopper6 wrote: »

The pensioners should be left alone IMO.

This culture of looking for people to hurt financially is getting a bit sickening.

Nobdoy ever points out that they shouldnt have to take a hit if the poxy FF govt hadn't destroyed the country.

The old folk have served thier country and paid thier taxes,at least let them have some semblance of dignity in old age.

These pensioners have had their whole working lives to save up enough money to look after themselves in retirement. If they haven't done so then they only have themselves to blame.

I also doubt that €2.20 per week is going to be the difference between dignity and destitution.

card_shark

Idbatterim wrote: »

ok so who do you want to target if the pensioners are left alone? I'm sure we would all prefer if nobody had be touched, but you cant shield one group in society from the current crisis and leave the rest to suffer. They get E230 per week is it? Food would cost what 40-50 a week? they have free travel. At this stage should own their own home (and most do). There is an electricity allowance. All I am saying is at E230 it is nowhere near subsistence living, it is actually very comfortable in my opinion once they are in any way savy with money...

those on the basic state pension of 230 euro are not loosing their medical card

you have to be on 500 as a single person over seventy and 900 if part of a couple over seventy and even then , they still retain the GP card , max that can be spent each month on meds is 144 euro so in effect

a pensioner on 2000 per month of a pension is now on 1856 per month and down no more than 36 quid per week

card_shark

Suryavarman wrote: »

These pensioners have had their whole working lives to save up enough money to look after themselves in retirement. If they haven't done so then they only have themselves to blame.

I also doubt that €2.20 per week is going to be the difference between dignity and destitution.

a quarter of those on the state pension never paid anything in tax during their working lives

they receive 11 euro less per week less than those on the contributory

lets not kids ourselves into thinking pensioners receive what they do based on heroic feats of the past

they do so due to their incredible voting power which all political parties crave

NIMAN

Its as hard to see a pensioner who needs every cent lose money, same as it is for every 20something, 40something, 50something.

The big problem in this country is the blanket giving and taking away of benefits. We need means testing so badly.

I know several pensioners personally who are loaded, and receiving massive private pensions. They don't need the free electricity, telephone, medical card etc, and I am sure there are plenty of others like them, but its easily to try to paint the picture that every single pensioner in this country is sitting in a cold house, freezing and starving. Of course they are some, but I would say for every one that is struggling, there is another who is planning a trip to the sun, or their next golf outing, or wondering what restaurant to try tonight.

LOSTfan57

Well this thread really is revolting now.......how has no one mentioned that there heating bills are often very high due to often living in old cold houses, and theres gas bills, and this "free travel" only applies to bus times which are often highly inadequate and can barely get by week to week.....thats knowledge and fact but yet pigs here want to leave them in cold houses during winter? I hope when these people get to pension age that they get left in damp cold homes.....then see what they say....ridiculous

LOSTfan57

NIMAN wrote: »

Its as hard to see a pensioner who needs every cent lose money, same as it is for every 20something, 40something, 50something.

The big problem in this country is the blanket giving and taking away of benefits. We need means testing so badly.

I know several pensioners personally who are loaded, and receiving massive private pensions. They don't need the free electricity, telephone, medical card etc, and I am sure there are plenty of others like them, but its easily to try to paint the picture that every single pensioner in this country is sitting in a cold house, freezing and starving. Of course they are some, but I would say for every one that is struggling, there is another who is planning a trip to the sun, or their next golf outing, or wondering what restaurant to try tonight.

So as long as the wealthy one gets taxed **** the poor one that can barely make ends meet getting punished aswell
Ah sure **** the poor elderly thats perfectly fair alright (Y)

Scortho

LOSTfan57 wrote: »

Well this thread really is revolting now.......how has no one mentioned that there heating bills are often very high due to often living in old cold houses, and theres gas bills, and this "free travel" only applies to bus times which are often highly inadequate and can barely get by week to week.....thats knowledge and fact but yet pigs here want to leave them in cold houses during winter? I hope when these people get to pension age that they get left in damp cold homes.....then see what they say....ridiculous

What cuts do you suggest should have been made instead?
Theyve been left untouched the longest due to political fear of losing the grey vote. Political fear should have no meaning on the long term success of this country.
Ask any pensioner what they want most and its to see there grandchildrens futures protected.
Borrowing to pay pensions that we cannot afford, does the opposite.

spank_inferno

LOSTfan57 wrote: »

So as long as the wealthy one gets taxed **** the poor one that can barely make ends meet getting punished aswell
Ah sure **** the poor elderly thats perfectly fair alright (Y)

Whats your solution?

(without mentioning something irrelevent like "burning bondholders")

dsmythy

They'll be out marching again. They're suspiciously quiet when it's single parents or sick children taking the cut though. Ultimately every group is an interest group.

card_shark

LOSTfan57 wrote: »

Well this thread really is revolting now.......how has no one mentioned that there heating bills are often very high due to often living in old cold houses, and theres gas bills, and this "free travel" only applies to bus times which are often highly inadequate and can barely get by week to week.....thats knowledge and fact but yet pigs here want to leave them in cold houses during winter? I hope when these people get to pension age that they get left in damp cold homes.....then see what they say....ridiculous

when the bulk of people here reach retirement , the state wont be anything like as generous as it is to the elderly today , the welfare state in Europe is broken and in Ireland is in smithereens , a complete Ponzi scheme

card_shark

dsmythy wrote: »

They'll be out marching again. They're suspiciously quiet when it's single parents or sick children taking the cut though. Ultimately every group is an interest group.

their marches will achieve nothing as long as younger generations are not idiotic enough to back them

don't vote against your own interest youth , those lobby groups like older and bolder and age action Ireland earn a living potraying all elderly people as bob cratchet

old_aussie

July Rain wrote: »

I am sick of all the oaps whinging about the budget. The telephone allowance works out at €2.20 per week. Is there really any oap that cant afford €2.20 pw out of their pension ? The pension is the only welfare payment that has never been cut during the economic crisis. Payments for children were cut for 6 budgets in a row, it is only fair that oaps take a little hit.

Hopefully you'll never be a pensioner and have all this problem.

spank_inferno

old_aussie wrote: »

Hopefully you'll never be a pensioner and have all this problem.

So your saying you hope he never ages?
Really?

Unless the dudes name is Benjamin Button perhaps?

Otherwise its kinda inevitable....
.... Its also a certainty that any of us here in our 20s & 30s will never enjoy what pensioners get today.

There just isnt enough people paying into the ponzi / pyramid scheme we call social welfare.

NIMAN

LOSTfan57 wrote: »

So as long as the wealthy one gets taxed **** the poor one that can barely make ends meet getting punished aswell
Ah sure **** the poor elderly thats perfectly fair alright (Y)

Read what I typed again.

I said that means testing is needed badly, then we can tax the rich pensioners and leave the poor ones alone, same with all different demographic groups in the country.

Geuze

Anecdotal example of pensioner couple:

1000 pw gross income
Under 10% income tax
Two medical cards
Two travel passes
Free TV licence
Subsidised elec
Subsidised telecom until 2014

350k on deposit + 150k in pension funds

= 500k financial assets

GREAT COUNTRY!!!!!!


There is a simple solution to making pensioners like this contribute more to the adjustment of reducing the deficit:

Take away the two special income tax reliefs that they get. Start with this first, so no need to cut any benefit first. Simply ask them to pay the same tax on same income as < 65 people.

Paying under 10% tax on 50k, while receiving substantial non-cash benefits is not sustainable.

hfallada

There has been countless studies showing OAP have only been marginal effected by the recession. They have a decent pension and a variety of benefits. Where as a student is given a grant of €75 a week. Out of that they must pay €18,30 for a Dublin Bus 5 day ticket, pay for rent( good luck getting anything for under a 100 a week in Dublin), buy books and some how have money for food. I know students who are so broke ( not from partying, but because of parents losing jobs) they can barely afford food. That what struggling to survive is, not losing a telephone allowance.

Maura74

Wow, I was thinking of going back to Ireland to when I was born to be buried there next to my parents and grandparent, but after reading this thread I think I will stay where I am, as you guys obviously do not like pensioners.

How do you cope with your grandparents do you insist that they retune their pensions to the state.

There are obviously more pensioners in Ireland than people under 65 of age, is that correct? My mum used to say to me when I was younger no body wants you when you are old and after reading this thread I know exactly what she meant.

Very sad especially when you know, if they are lucky, will all get to be a pensioner one day and it will quicker than you think.

I do and expect a lot of people my age knows what it is like not to have food. In the 30's people had large families and it was just dreadful not knowing where the next meal was coming from.. no children allowance or any kind of benefits and very little work around for people in the country areas and no one had cars. We went to school hungry and often fainted from lack of food. You we should go back to that era again.

Sheldons Brain

Take away the two special income tax reliefs that they get. Start with this first, so no need to cut any benefit first. Simply ask them to pay the same tax on same income as < 65 people.

Removing all of these special income tax reliefs, but keeping the medical card would seem a reasonable tradeoff that would protect those with particular health needs.

350k on deposit + 150k in pension funds
= 500k financial assets

Several people earlier in the thread were advocating that people save, there has to be a limit to the extent that people who do save are then punished for doing so by cutting things.

okiss

I would agree with some of the posts here in regards to pensioners.
I know some pensioners who would have all the free allowances which they don't need due to have civil service lump sums, a good pension every month, have rental income from house they have owned for years ect. People in the above situation don't need help in paying for esb ect.
These allowance should be means tested rather than everyone getting them once they reach a certain age.

The reality is that retired people have not had major cuts to there income unlike most youger people.
People who are working are paying more tax, prsi, usc. If they have children they are getting less childrens allowance.
The cost of food, bills ect has risen for every one.
The jobs reality for most younger people now is that you are working less hours, are doing temp work ect. If your unemployed the most you get is €188 a week and if lucky you might get €20 a week fuel allownce on top of this if you live on your own.
Most younger people now find it hard to have a small amount of savings for emergancies. They no longer have health insurance due to the cost.
Also for most people making there money last to the end of the month is hard so they are not putting money into a pension.

markpb

Maura74 wrote: »

Wow, I was thinking of going back to Ireland to when I was born to be buried there next to my parents and grandparent, but after reading this thread I think I will stay where I am, as you guys obviously do not like pensioners.

Leave the violin at home, it's nothing like that at all. Pensioners are treated extremely well by the state, at huge cost. Their benefits ballooned over the last decade and haven't been adjusted at all in the last three years. Not only are the benefits very generous, they also fail to take into account the financial status of the pensioner so rich and poor alike are treated the same.

Any attempt to balance this brings out the pensioners and people like you who claim any attempt to fix it is an attack on the vulnerable in our society. Removing medical cards from pensioners earning over 70k is not an attack on the vulnerable, it's a prudent and sensible thing to do but we can't because the violins were out in force. It's beyond ridiculous.

old_aussie

spank_inferno wrote: »

So your saying you hope he never ages?
Really?

I was being kind, in a sarcastic way.

Take the other option into account

spank_inferno

old_aussie wrote: »

I was being kind, in a sarcastic way.

Take the other option into account

Sarcasm aside please illuminate us with what you would to with this scenario.....

Currently there are 6-7 workers paying for every pensioner.

In a generation (25-30ish years), this ratio will drop closer to 3 workers per pensioner.

So... How do you reckon this is paid for?

Higher taxes?.... More debt?.

I encourage Maura and the rest of the worlds tiniest violin players tell us how we defuse that demographic timebomb.

murphaph

NIMAN wrote: »

Its as hard to see a pensioner who needs every cent lose money, same as it is for every 20something, 40something, 50something.

The big problem in this country is the blanket giving and taking away of benefits. We need means testing so badly.

I know several pensioners personally who are loaded, and receiving massive private pensions. They don't need the free electricity, telephone, medical card etc, and I am sure there are plenty of others like them, but its easily to try to paint the picture that every single pensioner in this country is sitting in a cold house, freezing and starving. Of course they are some, but I would say for every one that is struggling, there is another who is planning a trip to the sun, or their next golf outing, or wondering what restaurant to try tonight.

The thing is, those loaded pensioners likely paid a lot more in PRSI than the ones just receiving the basic state pension.

I support means testing only if it's used to decide of someone needs the equivalent of German Hartz IV payments (ie a subsistence payment). Contributory pension recipients should be paid a pension relative to what they contributed during their working lives.

There should be no such thing as a flat rate contributory pension. The only flat rate should be the non contributory and that should literally pay for the bare essentials from discount retailers. We can't afford to support people who never contributed to the system.

Self employed should also be allowed to contribute class A PRSI if they wish so they too can avail of a contributory pension.

No Pants

spank_inferno wrote: »

So your saying you hope he never ages?
Really?

Unless the dudes name is Benjamin Button perhaps?

Otherwise its kinda inevitable....
.... Its also a certainty that any of us here in our 20s & 30s will never enjoy what pensioners get today.

There just isnt enough people paying into the ponzi / pyramid scheme we call social welfare.

Don't worry, we'll get Benjamin with child benefit cuts.

Idbatterim

CIE fare increases of up to 10%

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/blow-for-bus-rail-passengers-as-fares-hiked-by-10pc-29672885.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fears-in-rte-over-5m-drop-in-funds-29672858.html

RTE workers have warned that a €5m cut in funding for the national broadcaster that was announced as part of the Budget will have "serious implications" for the station.

The Department of Social Protection (DSP) decided to slash the subsidy paid to RTE that covers TV licences for pensioners, care workers and people with disabilities, from €59m to €54m.

As many as 410,000 households receive free TV licences but none of these will lose this entitlement, nor will it affect new recipients, the DSP said.

However, the cut in funding will have to be absorbed by RTE, with staff at the cash-strapped station describing the move as "a major disappointment".

A spokesman for the RTE Group of Unions said: "In the overall scheme this may appear a relatively minor cut but given that RTE is currently operating on a knife-edge, any reduction in income has serious implications."

The spokesman referred to reports that Communications Minister Pat Rabbitte was unaware of the decision until the cabinet meeting on Sunday evening, two days before the Budget announcement.

He said: "This does not suggest any meaningful examination of the implications."

The RTE workers described the cut as "a major disappointment, not least because RTE trade union members have already made major sacrifices."

A spokesman for Social Protection Minister Joan Burton last night said that she had sought to protect "primary welfare payments" such as State Pension and Child Benefit.

Just worked out quickly that E160 x 410,000 = 65.5 million per year! In relation to the CIE fare hikes, dont worry pensioners, you will be insulated from that too, if they even contributed say 50c per journey etc, I'm sure there would be no need for more cuts at CIE...

out of interest, does anyone know what the state pension and associated perks costs the country every year?

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

card_shark wrote: »

a quarter of those on the state pension never paid anything in tax during their working lives

they receive 11 euro less per week less than those on the contributory

lets not kids ourselves into thinking pensioners receive what they do based on heroic feats of the past

they do so due to their incredible voting power which all political parties crave

that's a very intersting stat, i've always wondered that myself.

I Googled and found nothing though, do you've a source?

mathepac

Yet another vile anti-elderly thread with the requisite outlandish examples, ageist language and references.

Some alternative suggestions to raise much needed money:

Means test and tax child benefit
Prosecute single-parent allowance cheats (those with live-in boy-friends & girl-friends)
Jail benefit cheats
Recoup all fraudulently obtained benefits from the cheaters

July Rain

mathepac wrote: »

Yet another vile anti-elderly thread with the requisite outlandish examples, ageist language and references.

Some alternative suggestions to raise much needed money:

Means test and tax child benefit
Prosecute single-parent allowance cheats (those with live-in boy-friends & girl-friends)
Jail benefit cheats
Recoup all fraudulently obtained benefits from the cheaters

Why should child benifit be means tested but fee ESB, travel and tv licence for wealthy oaps remain intact ????

jank

OAP's have had an easier ride so far than most. Liveline will be hoping the next few days id say.

AlekSmart

murphaph wrote: »

The thing is, those loaded pensioners likely paid a lot more in PRSI than the ones just receiving the basic state pension.

I support means testing only if it's used to decide of someone needs the equivalent of German Hartz IV payments (ie a subsistence payment). Contributory pension recipients should be paid a pension relative to what they contributed during their working lives.

There should be no such thing as a flat rate contributory pension. The only flat rate should be the non contributory and that should literally pay for the bare essentials from discount retailers. We can't afford to support people who never contributed to the system.

Self employed should also be allowed to contribute class A PRSI if they wish so they too can avail of a contributory pension.

I hark back to the introduction of Pay Related Social Insurance as a concept intended to do EXACTLY as Murphaph sez....... What happened after that is the real issue at hand ?

mathepac

July Rain wrote: »

Why should child benifit be means tested ...

Whey should child benefit not be means tested or taxed?

jank wrote: »

... Liveline will be hoping the next few days id say.

What is it that Liveline will be hoping for?

Maura74

July Rain wrote: »

Why should child benifit be means tested but fee ESB, travel and tv licence for wealthy oaps remain intact ????

It is mean tested in the UK

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/childbenefit/start/who-qualifies/do-you-qualify.htm#10

After all it is a lifestyle choice now to have children.

At least child benefits should have more regulation on it for people residing in Ireland and the UK with their children residing abroad and are able to collect child benefit sent it to the alleged children abroad.

There will be enough people coming into the UK and Ireland in the New Year to be able to pay for the next generation pensions and after that as well.

Ireland seems to be like UK government they do not seem to be able to determine who the wealthy people pensioners are. Maybe that's because too many of them are their friends.

Wish it was a lift style whether you can grow old and not have to collection Old Age pension. Any pensioner would give so much to be in good health and able to keep working as long as possible. There again that would be frowned upon as it would be classed as taking away work from younger people, you cannot win when you get old. Maybe a cut-off point would help where people can live no longer passed a certain age ie before they can collect their pensions. Would people be happy about that as it will apply to them as well when they reach that cut off point?

spank_inferno

Was there supposed to be a solution there Maura?

Again.... Please tell us how you would pay for an aging population on their existing benefits... (or more benefuts as it seems you prefer ?

Calina

spank_inferno wrote: »

.... Its also a certainty that any of us here in our 20s & 30s will never enjoy what pensioners get today.

I feel the need to respond to this.

The simple truth is you have a metric tonne load more now in your 20s and 30s than people 20 years ago did, than people 40 years ago did and than people 60 years ago did.

Moaning about what they have now without comparing what you have now with what they had when they were your age is shallow and perverse. The world isn't so simple as "oh look, old people, they're always moaning".

There will come a time when you're old too. What are you going to do them, agree with the young people that you're a burden on society for the mere fact of being old.

YOu have it far better already than most old people have over the course of their lives.

Maura74

spank_inferno wrote: »

Was there supposed to be a solution there Maura?

Again.... Please tell us how you would pay for an aging population on their existing benefits... (or more benefuts as it seems you prefer ?

Listen to thisplease.... http://ukrp.musicradio.com/lbc973/live
http://www.lbc.co.uk/

There was an hour radio regarding people older people having to sell their homes for care home fees. But has been happening in Ireland for years when people have to go into care home and they are not cheap 50 to 60k a year.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2466361/Councils-spy-parents-sign-house-children-Blitz-families-avoid-care-home-fees.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

card_shark

georgiecasey wrote: »

that's a very intersting stat, i've always wondered that myself.

I Googled and found nothing though, do you've a source?

haven't found one yet sorry

not sure if your familiar with financial advisor jill Kirby , shes Canadian and often appears on radio and tv

ive no reason to assume she was lieing but a year ago she claimed that the majority of pensioners will draw down four times what they contributed down the years , such has been the ramping up in payments since 1997

my granny died in 1999 and I remember in the mid nineties , her pension was 80 pound per week

card_shark

Maura74 wrote: »

It is mean tested in the UK

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/childbenefit/start/who-qualifies/do-you-qualify.htm#10

After all it is a lifestyle choice now to have children.

At least child benefits should have more regulation on it for people residing in Ireland and the UK with their children residing abroad and are able to collect child benefit sent it to the alleged children abroad.

There will be enough people coming into the UK and Ireland in the New Year to be able to pay for the next generation pensions and after that as well.

Ireland seems to be like UK government they do not seem to be able to determine who the wealthy people pensioners are. Maybe that's because too many of them are their friends.

Wish it was a lift style whether you can grow old and not have to collection Old Age pension. Any pensioner would give so much to be in good health and able to keep working as long as possible. There again that would be frowned upon as it would be classed as taking away work from younger people, you cannot win when you get old. Maybe a cut-off point would help where people can live no longer passed a certain age ie before they can collect their pensions. Would people be happy about that as it will apply to them as well when they reach that cut off point?

interesting you bring up the uk

the state pension in the uk is 110 pound per week and a couple on it do not get 220 , they get 170 , here a couple on the contributory state pension get 460 and a couple on the non contributory get 438 per week

add to that the free travel pass in the uk only extends to their local area or at least within a relatively near boundary

card_shark

Calina wrote: »

I feel the need to respond to this.

The simple truth is you have a metric tonne load more now in your 20s and 30s than people 20 years ago did, than people 40 years ago did and than people 60 years ago did.

Moaning about what they have now without comparing what you have now with what they had when they were your age is shallow and perverse. The world isn't so simple as "oh look, old people, they're always moaning".

There will come a time when you're old too. What are you going to do them, agree with the young people that you're a burden on society for the mere fact of being old.

YOu have it far better already than most old people have over the course of their lives.

those in their seventies today also most likely had it much better in the 1960,s than the pensioners of that era had when they were fifty years younger in 1913 , its a bit of a canard to compare the lifestyle of people in 2013 to that of those who were in their prime in 1963

spank_inferno

Maura74 wrote: »

Listen to thisplease.... http://ukrp.musicradio.com/lbc973/live
http://www.lbc.co.uk/

There was an hour radio regarding people older people having to sell their homes for care home fees. But has been happening in Ireland for years when people have to go into care home and they are not cheap 50 to 60k a year.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2466361/Councils-spy-parents-sign-house-children-Blitz-families-avoid-care-home-fees.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

Come back to.me with something relative to Ireland who receive much more than their UK peers.

Also... Come back to me with a solution to there being just 3 workers per pensioner in 30 years time.

Benefits as they are are barely affordable now.... What happens when the amount of penioners doubles.

spank_inferno

Calina wrote: »

I feel the need to respond to this.

The simple truth is you have a metric tonne load more now in your 20s and 30s than people 20 years ago did, than people 40 years ago did and than people 60 years ago did.

Moaning about what they have now without comparing what you have now with what they had when they were your age is shallow and perverse. The world isn't so simple as "oh look, old people, they're always moaning".

There will come a time when you're old too. What are you going to do them, agree with the young people that you're a burden on society for the mere fact of being old.

YOu have it far better already than most old people have over the course of their lives.

And they had it better than their grandparents.

Its irrelevent circular logic.

What matters today is what the country can afford.

And what matters more is what can be afforded as the population ages.

What is your solution?

More tax... Or more debt.

Because it seems modest cuts are an outrage to you.

Scortho

spank_inferno wrote: »

And they had it better than their grandparents.

Its irrelevent circular logic.

What matters today is what the country can afford.

And what matters more is what can be afforded as the population ages.

What is your solution?

More tax... Or more debt.

Because it seems modest cuts are an outrage to you.

More tax, so long as its not me paying the extra tax:pac:

Idbatterim

the thing is we are not calling for cuts to the pensioners for the sake of it, if I thought they were on say E150 a week with no other perks, I would say no way should they be touched... I simply reckon that they as a sector of society are on too much and its resulting in more hardship for others...