Vehicle Seizures

S28382

I was over in a recovery yard this morning with a friend of mine and from talking with the staff there they said in the Kilkenny City and County region the Guards have seized nearly 350 cars(check points) since the new tax law came into affect. :eek: The yard was fairly full and in the time that we were there (1 hour) 3 people came along to recover their cars. It would seem the Guards out this way are going all out on enforcing the new tax law.

Seizing that amount of cars in such a short space of time really shows how many people were avoiding the tax. I wonder tho is this just a show of force for a few months and then its back to never seeing a check point again for ages.

CiniO

I live in quite rural area and I'd lived (and drove) here for the last 7 years.
I've never seen any garda checkpoint in here, nor would I expect to see one.
Barely anyone in this region has the car fully legal (taxed, insured, NCTed) and plenty of people drive on driving permit on their own.

And over last 2 weeks, I've seen 2 garda checkpoints myself in here, and I've heard about 3 more.
I talked to some people who lived here all their life, which for some of them were 30, 40, 50 or more years, and they all said they never seen a checkpoint in here before in their lives.

So definitely something is happening.

S28382

Yeah it seems as if they have been told to send out a message to the public that they are serious about tax....for a while anyway.

Joe10000

There was a checkpoint on the dodder view road in Dublin last week and I've used this road every day for the last 15 years and it's only the second time I've seen a checkpoint there.

What made this one unusual though was the fact that they were there for hours on end, I went through it four times and the seized cars were beginning to pile up.

TJJP

There's something on alright. I saw a car getting loaded on both the N11 (UCD) and on Nutgrove Avenue last Sunday. In both cases car was being hoisted onto a tow truck with Garda in attendance. Now it might have been a breakdown but it all seemed too high profile and obvious.

Grimreaper666

Well the money for the banks has to come from somewhere you know, you hardly think it will be spent on roads or something as insignificant as that..................

bmstuff

With this new law in place, can they now seize a car as soon as the disc is expired or?

I am asking because honestly sometimes I am one month out, I pay within the first expired month, like end of September if my tax is out end of August.
I know I can get a ticket for this, worse case scenario. Well up to recently.

So, has this changed or?

CiniO

bmstuff wrote: »

With this new law in place, can they now seize a car as soon as the disc is expired or?

I am asking because honestly sometimes I am one month out, I pay within the first expired month, like end of September if my tax is out end of August.
I know I can get a ticket for this, worse case scenario. Well up to recently.

So, has this changed or?

AFAIK nothing changed.
They can seize the car when tax is out by over 2 months. (i.e. tax expired in end of July, and pulled over now in October).

Grimreaper666

bmstuff wrote: »

With this new law in place, can they now seize a car as soon as the disc is expired or?

I am asking because honestly sometimes I am one month out, I pay within the first expired month, like end of September if my tax is out end of August.
I know I can get a ticket for this, worse case scenario. Well up to recently.

So, has this changed or?

Depends on who stops you, meet the wrong cop and your car could be seized.

S28382

Is it not after one month that they can seize the car? I read onlinethat since 2010 it was one month and after that they can legally take it ill see if i can find the link to it.

CiniO

Grimreaper666 wrote: »

Depends on who stops you, meet the wrong cop and your car could be seized.

They can not seize the car if tax is expired by less than full 2 months.

Grimreaper666

CiniO wrote: »

They can not seize the car if tax is expired by less than full 2 months.

I haven't seen that in print anywhere tbh.

V.W.L 11

section 41 of the road traffic act 1994 (as amended) outlines this

allthedoyles

How much does it cost to retrieve the car , other than paying the overdue tax ?

Tigger

they are seizing stuff that is declared off road and is on road

S28382

allthedoyles wrote: »

How much does it cost to retrieve the car , other than paying the overdue tax ?

125 for tow and 35 per day for storage. You can take it out on a transporter without having tax.

Stoolbend

I think a member of AGS confirmed that it only needs to be out by one month here before.

CiniO

allthedoyles wrote: »

How much does it cost to retrieve the car , other than paying the overdue tax ?

I don't think they can force you to pay overdue tax before you can retrieve your car back.
You can always tow it away from their parking after paying appropriate fee, without taxing it.

CiniO

Tigger wrote: »

they are seizing stuff that is declared off road and is on road

How do you know they are not seizing vehicle which are not taxed and not declared off the road?

CiniO

Stoolbend wrote: »

I think a member of AGS confirmed that it only needs to be out by one month here before.

Link provided by V.W.L 11 claims it's 3 months, but I defintely remember some amendment to this limiting time to 2 months, but so far I can't find it at the moment.
I don't believe it was changed for 1 months.

Guy:Incognito

Grimreaper666 wrote: »

Well the money for the banks has to come from somewhere you know, you hardly think it will be spent on roads or something as insignificant as that..................

6th post, well done :rolleyes:

CiniO wrote: »

They can not seize the car if tax is expired by less than full 2 months.

I'm sure they can if it has been declared off the road though.

Tigger

CiniO wrote: »

How do you know they are not seizing vehicle which are not taxed and not declared off the road?

they might be in exceptional case

but in general the new broom sweeps clean

S28382

CiniO wrote: »

Link provided by V.W.L 11 claims it's 3 months, but I defintely remember some amendment to this limiting time to 2 months, but so far I can't find it at the moment.
I don't believe it was changed for 1 months.

I definitely read that it was one month and that it was changed from 3 months to 1 month on 2010. I dont know how true it is i always thought it was 2months.

CiniO

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I'm sure they can if it has been declared off the road though.

There is nothing in recent law amendments referring to off-road declarations giving them such power.
I think still 2 months period from expiry of last tax disc applies - even if vehicles is declared off the road.

Also I strongly don't believe that AGS would have access to database containing details of vehicles declared off the road, and even if they do, such database can't be up to date, as motortax offices dealing with it surely don't do their job properly.

Eireann81

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/driving_offences.html

Under the section "Motor tax and insurance", it states that your car may be seized if the tax is out by over 2 months.

CiniO

S28382 wrote: »

I definitely read that it was one month and that it was changed from 3 months to 1 month on 2010. I dont know how true it is i always thought it was 2months.

Possibly author of what you read was wrong.

Here's the ROAD TRAFFIC ACT 1994 (which V.W.L 11mentioned) with all further amendments up to 2013.

http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/Restatement/First%20Programme%20of%20Restatement/EN_ACT_1994_0007.PDF

41.—(1) The Minist er may, aft er consultation with the Minist er for Justice, make
regulations authorising and providing for the det ention, removal, st orage and subse-quent release or disposal of a mechanically propelled vehicle in use in a public place
where—
(...)
( c ) a member of the Garda Síochána is of opinion that any excise duty payable
under section 1 of the Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act, 1952, in respect
of the vehicle, being a vehicle which is or which the member reasonably
believes to be registered in the State, has not been paid in respect of a
continuous period of 2 months or more immediately prior to such
use,

kuro2k

Garda website states it can only be lifted if its out more than two months

If my car is not insured, taxed or I don’t have a driving licence or I am driving a vehicle that I’m not licensed to drive, what is the position if I am stopped by a member of An Garda Síochána?

Section 41 of the Road Traffic Act 1994 as amended by Section 19 Road Traffic Act 2006 applies. A member of An Garda Síochána may seize a vehicle being used in a public place where –

A member of An Garda Síochána is of the opinion that the vehicle is being used in contravention of Section 56 Road Traffic Act 1961 i.e. The person driving the vehicle is not insured to drive the concerned vehicle.

person driving the vehicle refuses or fails to produce there and then a driving licence then having effect and licensing him/her to drive the vehicle, when production of such a licence is demanded of him/her by a member of An Garda Síochána under Section 40(1) of the Road Traffic Act 1961 and the member is of the opinion that the person is by reason of his/her age ineligible to hold a driving licence, licensing him/her to drive the vehicle.

There is no road tax in force for a period of 2 months or greater.

http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=1727&Lang=1

Probably a good idea to bookmark the link in your phone if your tax is out < 2 months, it might come in handy at a checkpoint..

jamesr123

kuro2k wrote: »

Garda website states it can only be lifted if its out more than two months



http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=1727&Lang=1

Probably a good idea to bookmark the link in your phone if your tax is out < 2 months, it might come in handy at a checkpoint..

Print it and leave in the glove box. I'm convinced most guards don't even know that.

I have heard lots of people getting their cars seized when their tax has only been out for a few days.

CiniO

jamesr123 wrote: »

Print it and leave in the glove box. I'm convinced most guards don't even know that.

I have heard lots of people getting their cars seized when their tax has only been out for a few days.

In which case they could sue gard that seized the car, for doing it illegally.

TJJP

kuro2k wrote: »

Garda website states it can only be lifted if its out more than two months.

As per Cino above: There is nothing in recent law amendments [July 2013] referring to off-road declarations giving them such power.

However, there are vast and varying circumstances under which a Garda 'of the opinion' can seize. All a bit up in the air I'd reckon. Waiving a web printout probably won't assist.

jamesr123

CiniO wrote: »

In which case they could sue gard that seized the car, for doing it illegally.

Say I buy a car tomorrow and the tax is out 6 months but I can't tax it because the log book is being sent off.. Can they still take it?

CiniO

jamesr123 wrote: »

Say I buy a car tomorrow and the tax is out 6 months but I can't tax it because the log book is being sent off.. Can they still take it?

If they want to - of course they can.

visual

jamesr123 wrote: »

Say I buy a car tomorrow and the tax is out 6 months but I can't tax it because the log book is being sent off.. Can they still take it?

Yes they can take it.

I bought a car with tax out longer than 6 months was waiting for log book to arrive

I got stopped at check point explained it was only bought 3 days previously. Asked if I could prove that, of course I couldn't. Garda said he would have to impound it.
Luckly garda said check your glove pocket
I opened it and replied ive only my licence and insurance nothing else. He read the insurance date and it confirmed the date correspondences to date I claimed I bought it so I was let proceed on with car.

I was very luckly that the insurance came in the post that morning otherwise I would have been walking.

I think if I was in that position again I take a photo of VLC showing change of owner and carry it around on phone.

Apart from being stuck at side of road I would image I would have to pay fees even if I was not in wrong to get car out of pound as I wouldn't have proof until VLC turned up.

Mint Sauce

visual wrote: »

Yes they can take it.

I bought a car with tax out longer than 6 months was waiting for log book to arrive

I got stopped at check point explained it was only bought 3 days previously. Asked if I could prove that, of course I couldn't. Garda said he would have to impound it.
Luckly garda said check your glove pocket
I opened it and replied ive only my licence and insurance nothing else. He read the insurance date and it confirmed the date correspondences to date I claimed I bought it so I was let proceed on with car.

I was very luckly that the insurance came in the post that morning otherwise I would have been walking.

I think if I was in that position again I take a photo of VLC showing change of owner and carry it around on phone.

Apart from being stuck at side of road I would image I would have to pay fees even if I was not in wrong to get car out of pound as I wouldn't have proof until VLC turned up.

But then in that case would you be able to have the fine/tow/impound fees wavied/refunded on production of the VLC?

visual

Mint Sauce wrote: »

But then in that case would you be able to have the fine/tow/impound fees wavied/refunded on production of the VLC?

True justice would prevail in the end. But not without considerable inconvenience and expenditure while appealed is being processed.

Chris_Heilong

Actually you have something there, a little section on the log book you could tear off and give to a new owner to prove when they bought the car would be genius.

CiniO

Mint Sauce wrote: »

But then in that case would you be able to have the fine/tow/impound fees wavied/refunded on production of the VLC?

I don't think it would be possible.
You can get your impound fees waived if impounding your vehicle was incorrect.
F.e. if it was impounded for no tax, but you actually had it taxed at the time.

CiniO

visual wrote: »

Apart from being stuck at side of road I would image I would have to pay fees even if I was not in wrong to get car out of pound as I wouldn't have proof until VLC turned up.

visual wrote: »

True justice would prevail in the end. But not without considerable inconvenience and expenditure while appealed is being processed.

But see... by driving untaxed car you are in the wrong, even though you just bought it and you are physically not able to tax it.
It still doesn't release you from obligation to have vehicles taxed when in public.
If you wanted to be 100% in the right, when buying untaxed car you should have it towed to your place and not use it until it's taxed.

visual

CiniO wrote: »

But see... by driving untaxed car you are in the wrong, even though you just bought it and you are physically not able to tax it.
It still doesn't release you from obligation to have vehicles taxed when in public.
If you wanted to be 100% in the right, when buying untaxed car you should have it towed to your place and not use it until it's taxed.

What your saying is correct but this is where it isn't well thought out. In the governments grab for money it leave a new owner exposed to fines, car impounded and court summons through no fault of their own and when new owner does tax car it will be back dated to day of purchase.

After all the usual period of 2 weeks for transfer of ownership isn't under the buyers control. And motor tax offices won't allow new owner tax car untill its transfered in to their name.

This places you at the mercy of garda and courts motor tax office. While I personally find most gardai do use their discression wisely I wouldn't want ro be relying on it.

The older system with log book was better in this regard as you filled in a transfer of ownership form and kept the stub as proof.

Mint Sauce

CiniO wrote: »

I don't think it would be possible.
You can get your impound fees waived if impounding your vehicle was incorrect.
F.e. if it was impounded for no tax, but you actually had it taxed at the time.

But what if you were able to sucessfully prove you had only bought the car the day before. You would not have been able to get the tax, as you would have not yet received your VRC.

mathepac

Mint Sauce wrote: »

But what if you were able to sucessfully prove you had only bought the car the day before. You would not have been able to get the tax, as you would have not yet received your VRC.

Is the implication here that it's "someone else's fault" that your car isn't taxed?

To avoid "grey areas" :rolleyes: tax your car first then use it on the road.

CiniO

visual wrote: »

What your saying is correct but this is where it isn't well thought out.

Of course it isn't. I'd say even that it's very badly thought out.

In the governments grab for money it leave a new owner exposed to fines, car impounded and court summons through no fault of their own and when new owner does tax car it will be back dated to day of purchase.

After all the usual period of 2 weeks for transfer of ownership isn't under the buyers control. And motor tax offices won't allow new owner tax car untill its transfered in to their name.

This places you at the mercy of garda and courts motor tax office. While I personally find most gardai do use their discression wisely I wouldn't want ro be relying on it.

But unfortunately there is lots of fields in motoring in Ireland, where you need to rely on garda discression hoping they won't enforce the law, which you were not able to obey.
Examples:
-buying untaxed car, where you can't tax it for a week or two before ownership is transferred.
-buying not NCTed car, where NCT waiting times sometimes exceed few months.
-renewing or exchanging driving licence, where you have leave your old licence with them and drive without a document.
- importing a car, where NCT becomes due on day of registration, but you can only book it few days later, and waiting times sometimes exceed few months.

And there's plenty more of which I can't actually think in this moment.

In all cases above, you must rely on gards good will, that they won't go on with prosecuting you for braking the law.

Obviously you could be 100% within the law, by not driving the car - but let's looks at it reasonable.
You would need to avoid driving for a week or two after purchasing untaxed car secondhand.
You would need to avoid driving freshly imported car for few months because it doesn't have NCT and you can't get it for few months.
You would need to avoid driving any vehicle for few months, when you renew or exchange your driving licence.

All those obivously while possible, would be horrendous inconveniance for most people, and no one is going to do it just for sake of obeying the law.
That's why garda puts blind eye on things like that, but it's only they own good will. They can prosecute if they want.

CiniO

Mint Sauce wrote: »

But what if you were able to sucessfully prove you had only bought the car the day before. You would not have been able to get the tax, as you would have not yet received your VRC.

It doesn't matter.
Legally you are required to have your car taxed, no matter if it's possible to obtain this tax or not.

Also legislation states clearly, that waiving of impound fees can go on, when vehicle was seized improperly (f.e. when it was seized for no tax, but there was valid tax on the car).
Otherwise, I'd say no chance.

visual

@ CiniO

Hadn't thought about those other pooly constructed motoring laws. Really have to wonder why so many state bodies can't get their act together and model the real world before passing in law.

As I said eariler most garda are reasonable and will use discretion but not all will be so accommodating.

bmwguy

I bought a car tonight and tax was out, I got the previous owner to make a copy of the logbook with changeover details just in case I was stopped, which I wasnt. I know I'm not meant to drive it but no way am I leaving new car sitting idle while waiting for it to be put in my name. If this option not available, take a picture on phone of the form. A Garda in good form might let you go

visual

bmwguy wrote: »

I bought a car tonight and tax was out, I got the previous owner to make a copy of the logbook with changeover details just in case I was stopped, which I wasnt. I know I'm not meant to drive it but no way am I leaving new car sitting idle while waiting for it to be put in my name. If this option not available, take a picture on phone of the form. A Garda in good form might let you go

I would do the same to be honest plus even if garda was nasty it would get dismissed in court.

Best of luck with new car and carry insurance policy and licence with you

slimjimmc

Stoolbend wrote: »

I think a member of AGS confirmed that it only needs to be out by one month here before.

bmwguy wrote: »

I bought a car tonight and tax was out, I got the previous owner to make a copy of the logbook with changeover details just in case I was stopped, which I wasnt. I know I'm not meant to drive it but no way am I leaving new car sitting idle while waiting for it to be put in my name. If this option not available, take a picture on phone of the form. A Garda in good form might let you go

Don't park it anywhere a Traffic Warden might be patrolling, they have the power to fine you just as easily as a Garda but you're not usually around when they do and, even if you were there to explain, they're unlikely to take heed.

Zoney

bmwguy wrote: »

I bought a car tonight and tax was out, I got the previous owner to make a copy of the logbook with changeover details just in case I was stopped, which I wasnt. I know I'm not meant to drive it but no way am I leaving new car sitting idle while waiting for it to be put in my name. If this option not available, take a picture on phone of the form. A Garda in good form might let you go

Called into motor tax office in person myself for this after buying the car - they confirmed they couldn't issue it till change of ownership went through, but stamped the form as if they were going to accept it, and said to bring that one back in when I have the cert, and to carry it with to show the attempt to tax. They also wrote a note and stamped it as well.

This probably had us covered with the guards (had the receipt from purchase also) but we made sure not to park on public roads (used multistory, etc) due to wardens (no discretion there).