Joint guardianship, what to expect?

Vinz Mesrine

I have a case coming up soon to get joint guardianship of my daughter who is 4,basically I want to know what to expect in the court room.

Also my ex partner got a passport for my daughter after I served her with the summons and has told me she is moving her to another country, is there anything I can do about this?

The Corinthian

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Also my ex partner got a passport for my daughter after I served her with the summons and has told me she is moving her to another country, is there anything I can do about this?

Once you have guardianship it would be close to impossible for her to legally leave the country with your child without your permission. If she does, it would be considered child abduction under the Hague Convention and an international arrest warrant would be issued for her.

Even before you get guardianship, as long as you've applied for it, you'd be covered in the eyes of an Irish court, I believe.

Vinz Mesrine

That's good to know anyway. Thanks

Is it possible to have my daughters passport surrendered?

The Corinthian

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Is it possible to have my daughters passport surrendered?

I don't think so - you really would have to ask a solicitor.

Just to add on guardianship, it does afford you a number of rights:

The right to block your child from being taken out of the state. As per my previous post. This is not an absolute right and can be challenged successfully. For example if the custodial parent wants to bring the child on holiday abroad and you try to block it, you'd probably get overruled by a court unless you could demonstrate a real danger of the custodial parent planning on making it a one-way trip.

The right to refuse that the child be adopted. Without it a father has absolutely no right to stop a child being adopted.

Preferential treatment twoards custody. I don't think you can get custody at all without guardianship, in fact. Additionally, if something happens to the custodial parent, the other guardian is first in line to get custody of the child. Otherwise, the custodial parent's next-of-kin are.

The right to have a say in the educational and religious upbringing and well-being of the child. In theory, you'll have a legal say in things such as what school they go to, what religion their raised in, what medical procedures they can and cannot go through. In practice, this right is largely ignored and left unenforced.

For more information: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/cohabiting_couples/legal_guardianship_and_unmarried_couples.html

Orion

The Corinthian wrote: »

Even before you get guardianship, as long as you've applied for it, you'd be covered in the eyes of an Irish court, I believe.

That's correct. Once something is sub judice attempting to circumvent it would not make a judge happy.

Orion

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

That's good to know anyway. Thanks

Is it possible to have my daughters passport surrendered?

It is possible but unlikely. You would have to go to court and make a case that there is a real and immediate risk that your partner is going to abscond with the child. As Corinthian said you should consult a solicitor if you believe this is the case.

Vinz Mesrine

It's good to see a father getting decent responses here. I was expecting a lot of women to come in giving out about me even asking such a question.

Orion

Why? There've been discussions here about guardianship before and both the men and women in this forum are very supportive of a father wanting to take responsibility for his child. It's your child too

The Corinthian

Orion wrote: »

Why? There've been discussions here about guardianship before and both the men and women in this forum are very supportive of a father wanting to take responsibility for his child. It's your child too

Here's fairly balanced, but there are plenty of parenting sites, even Irish-based ones, out there where a man posting about seeking guardianship would quickly result in a pretty vicious backlash.

Vinz Mesrine

Orion wrote: »

Why? There've been discussions here about guardianship before and both the men and women in this forum are very supportive of a father wanting to take responsibility for his child. It's your child too

It's my first post here and as stated above, there are plenty of sites which are mainly frequented by women that would give out about me asking to keep my child in Ireland and therefore stopping her mother move on with her life. I'm just glad this isn't one of those places

Sleepy

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Also my ex partner got a passport for my daughter after I served her with the summons and has told me she is moving her to another country, is there anything I can do about this?

Did she say this in a text / email? Without evidence of her intention to do so it would be very difficult to get a court to revoke the passport but if you had such evidence (or could influence her to give you such evidence), it could go some way towards proving that she intended to circumvent the law which one would imagine would help your case in a courtroom.

Owryan

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

I have a case coming up soon to get joint guardianship of my daughter who is 4,basically I want to know what to expect in the court room.

Also my ex partner got a passport for my daughter after I served her with the summons and has told me she is moving her to another country, is there anything I can do about this?

On the court thing I can offer my own experience.

Never in any court before so had no idea what to expect . Place was packed and I had no idea what was going on. Basically when my case came up my solicitor called me in and he n the judge had a legal speak discussion. As my ex wasnt contesting my application there were no problems.

The judge asked if I understood what being a guardian meant and how involved I was in my kids lives. After that he made the order and I got my guardianship papers within a day or 2.

Best of luck

LittleRose

I have a different experience and I think it's something you should be aware of:

my husband's little girl (who lived with mother in France) was taken from Europe to live overseas without his permission. He has joint custody and refused to sign an affadavit allowing her to be removed from the jurisdiction so the mother went to court (in France) and was granted permission to move abroad. She lied in court and told the judge that she would maintain the access agreements (five times per year) but this has not happened and his rights have slowly been eroded. We see her twice a year (at the whim of the mother) while he continues to pay the same rate of child maintenance (almost 1K per month). When he lost his job and couldn't pay, he was taken to court in Ireland and threatened with a three month prison sentence if he didn't pay, job or no job.

He was given 24 hours notice when they were moving abroad and went to the Gardai at the time who were sympathetic but could not help. It seems the maintenance is enforceable but not the access. The Hague convention also could not help as she had a court order granting permission.

I would strongly suggest going to a solicitor (one who specialises in family law) and have joint guardianship sorted out as a matter of urgency. It can offer you some protection but is also not watertight as you would imagine but does afford you some protection at least.

Good luck.

netopia

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

That's good to know anyway. Thanks

Is it possible to have my daughters passport surrendered?

It might be no harm to contact the Passport Office, if she signed a Sole Guardian Affidavit while you had an application for guardianship pending it is not something the PPO would be happy with. Worth making the enquiry anyway.

free-2-air

Corinthian,

I would be very careful about assuring anyone that just because you have applied to the court that you are covered by the Hague Convention.

My daughter was taken by her mother after i had applied to the courts and there was very nothing that the Guards or the Court could do about it.

I don't want to get into all the details but based on what i have been through my understanding is that
- having applied to the Court for guardianship, the Court is 'seized with the custody' of the Child
- technically to avail of the Hague Convention the applicant has to be the one with custody over the child
- despite being 'seized of the custody' of the child once a guardianship case is before them, Irish courts will not make a Hague Application on behalf of the father
- if the Child is taken to the UK, there is precedence which will ensure that the courts will accept that the father, despite technically not having guardianship, can bring a Hague application
- the same is not true of other countries

Having been through this i would always say that prevention is better than cure - so seeking an order preventing the child from being removed from the jurisdiction at the same time as making the guardianship application is something you should consider......and obviously talk to a family lawyer immediately.

The Corinthian

free-2-air wrote: »

I would be very careful about assuring anyone that just because you have applied to the court that you are covered by the Hague Convention.

That's a fair criticism. I did not mean to suggest that the Hague Convention was some sort of iron-clad protection, although reading over what I wrote I probably did. Other than what you've cited, not all countries are even signed up to it and even where they are enforcement can be an issue.

However, it does make it significantly harder to take a child out of the country, but as with pretty much all parental rights it's very much a case of the hand that rocks the cradle...

And yes, engaging a solicitor is certainly advisable in such scenarios.

Ash.J.Williams

I was prepared to battle for joint guardianship but it was given to me in the end...get your solicitor in touch with hers and they'll sort it out without court...only something like harasssment of the mother, child abuse etc would stop you.

bajer101

The Corinthian wrote: »

Once you have guardianship it would be close to impossible for her to legally leave the country with your child without your permission. If she does, it would be considered child abduction under the Hague Convention and an international arrest warrant would be issued for her.

Even before you get guardianship, as long as you've applied for it, you'd be covered in the eyes of an Irish court, I believe.

It is highly unlikely that the Gardai would issue an arrest warrant for a mother who parentally abducts a child - actually they can't. They would have to prepare a file for the DPP, who would then be unlikely to act. When I reported my ex for abducting my daughter, the reply I received from the Garda sergeant was, "What do you want me to do about it? That's a matter between you and her." So while it is an offence (Section 16 of the Non-Fatal Offences against the person At, 1997), it is unlikely that the Gardai or DPP will act.

I had to lodge my case with the Central Authority for Child Abduction in the Dept. of Justice and then go to court in the country where my child was taken to secure her return. I succeeded in having my child returned within five (very long) months, which is apparently extremely quickly for these types of cases.

Prevention is definitely better than cure in these cases. If I were you, I would expedite the guardianship case (you can get notice periods for service reduced in these cases). If your hearing date is not within the next couple of weeks, I would go back to the court and seek an emergency hearing. I would also be down to the High Court pronto seeking a ruling that the child cannot be removed from the jurisdiction and an order seeking the surrender of your child's passport. You can then get the Dept. of Foreign Affairs to put a block on the issuing of a new passport. I would also immediately file for sole custody of your child on the basis that it is not in your child's best interests to be cared for by someone who is threatening to abduct them.

Parental Child Abduction is Child Abuse.