New Pajero 'Executive' 5 seater commercial

vibe666

Has anyone looked into these yet? (see attached scans of the brochures for more details).

I know Land Rover has a similar commercial 5 seater Discovery, so I was wondering if anyone had any experience of either?

From what I was told by the dealer, they have managed to take out the 3rd row of folding seats (i.e. the 6th & 7th) and with only a few other minor changes, get the vehicle classed as a commercial, even though it still has the back seats.

it's also more or less the same spec as the UK Elegance Shoguns (which I currently have), so you get full leather, 7" satnav/dvd player sound system with the full rockford fosgate amp and speakers, reversing camera & sesors, cruise control, xenon headlights, aircon etc. as you'd expect from a well specced non-commercial 4x4. they've also made some improvements to the engine which means you now get 200bhp and 'up to' 40mpg (but realistically still >30mpg), as well as a 5 year warranty.

AND, you also get commercial tax and insurance, which is also going to help with running costs.

Finance wise, the dealership broke it down as below, with me paying the VAT amount up front and financing the rest over 5 years.

Retail Price €51,450

Discount €1,950

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Cost €49,500

Deposit/Vat amount €8,000

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Finance Amount €41,500

Monthly Payment 5yrs €872

unfortunately, my accountant seems to be having trouble with the idea of me getting it as BIK as even though revenue have already classed it as a commercial vehicle for tax and insurance purposes, whenever he has approached revenue about commercial vehicles in relation to BIK, anything with more than 2 seats (apparently) gets automatically denied.

so, has anyone managed to get one of these past revenue (or a 5 seat comm. Disco) as benefit in kind? or are my dreams of a new jeep without having to pay the full whack just pie in the sky?

Yawlboy

My accountant sent an email to revenue two weeks ago asking about the BIK status of the Disco and the Pajero - once he gets feedback I'll let you know.

vibe666

Yawlboy wrote: »

My accountant sent an email to revenue two weeks ago asking about the BIK status of the Disco and the Pajero - once he gets feedback I'll let you know.

fingers crossed!

Yawlboy

My accountant tried contacting revenue in relation to the BIK issue and got the runabout as he could only get answers in relation to VRT and not BIK. However he did speak to the Director of Taxation in Chartered Accountants Ireland and speaking with him he was of the view that by having seats behind the driver, rear doors and glass in those doors it did not meet the Revenue definition of a commercial vehicle for BIK purposes. :(:( He also sent me this:

Meaning of “van”
A van means a mechanically propelled vehicle which –
· Is designed or constructed solely or mainly for the carriage of goods or other burden, and
· Has a roofed area or areas to the rear of the driver’s seat, and
· Has no side windows or seating fitted in that roofed area or areas.
Where a crew cab or other similar type of vehicle meets all of these criteria it would be regarded as a van rather than a car.

Reading between the lines, the Revenue are saying this is a self-assessment issue. They have provided us with guidance and it is up to us to apply that guidance. Based on my understanding of the above and the results of my discussions with professional colleagues the vehicle should be treated as a car for BIK purposes. There is a huge exposure to the company by way of interest and penalties for an incorrect BIK treatment in the event of a Revenue Audit.

I know this is not the answer you were looking for but in my view it is the correct one in these circumstances.

vibe666

Yawlboy wrote: »

I know this is not the answer you were looking for but in my view it is the correct one in these circumstances.

yeah, i had a feeling that's how it would turn out.

any idea on if there would be any benefit as having it classified as a car and claiming BIK on it as a car? is there some percentage of the cost that can still be claimed back via the business?

I had heard from someone in passing that there was still an option of claiming 5 7th's of the cost (i.e. mon-fri) as BIK , but I don't know if that was in relation to a van or a car?

thanks again anyway, at least i know for sure now.

no12

I heard at the weekend Toyota are launching there own 5 seater commercial be interesting to see how they compare in price V the Pajero.

Snake_Doctor

You could always buy the Pajero personally and then claim milage. If you are a director of the company you can claim the VAT as well.

vibe666

Snake_Doctor wrote: »

You could always buy the Pajero personally and then claim milage. If you are a director of the company you can claim the VAT as well.

already got one and already doing that, but it's got pretty high mileage on it at this point so i'm just looking to take advantage of being a company director to get a new one without it costing me (personally) the earth.

Yawlboy

Snake_Doctor wrote: »

You could always buy the Pajero personally and then claim milage. If you are a director of the company you can claim the VAT as well.

What do you mean, if I buy it through the company and claim the VAT won't the company own it not me?

vibe666

Yawlboy wrote: »

What do you mean, if I buy it through the company and claim the VAT won't the company own it not me?

does that really matter if you ARE the company?

Yawlboy

I mean won't it matter as far as BIK is concerned?

Harrier1980

Good thread!!

I spoke with both land rover and Mitsubishi in recent months and they both assured the commercial 5%BIK would apply!

I guess from what I read above they were just trying to make a sale?

vibe666

That's the big question!

scwazrh

Snake_Doctor wrote: »

You could always buy the Pajero personally and then claim milage. If you are a director of the company you can claim the VAT as well.

Could you explain this more please?How does a director buy a jeep personally and claim mileage ,which means its in their own name and then claim the vat as well?

vibe666

looks like we have the trifecta now.

So there are now options for an 'executive/business' Disco, Pajero OR Land Cruiser, with the basic specs of each being that the 6th & 7th seats in the boot have been removed at the factory with the rest of the specs following the pajero executive with the mid to high end options for each model.

There are also rumours (though admittedly only from the dealerships) that these all DO qualify for the 5% BIK, so I'd be getting yourselves on the order list as they are likely to go like hotcakes. i've been told that even if I ordered the Cruiser today, i won't see it before february.

Harrier1980

Called to mitsi dealers in Waterford, colonmel, and offlay
Called to land rover dealer in Waterford and Dublin
Called to Toyota dealer in Offaly.

NONE cand confirm 5% BIK! All say " I will check that out and call you" not a single call yet! I am a sceptic until I have seen this confirmed by the dealer in writing. If it were the case they would be advertising it from the rooftops!

Open to correction ii I am wrong!

BalingMad

Got a disco 2013 5 seats, bought as company vehicle, it comes under utility vehicle so you can claim the vat back price of the jeep. But trouble in the mist. Revenue are kicking up a fuss about refunded the vat even though the vehicle is of a category where you can get the vat back. It's black and white and still trouble!
One thing about these 5 seat jeeps of late that are coming under "commercial" or utility to be correct the tax is not commercial tax, for the disco, it's actually more than the tax of a private 7 seat disco model!

Harrier1980

BalingMad wrote: »

Got a disco 2013 5 seats, bought as company vehicle, it comes under utility vehicle so you can claim the vat back price of the jeep. But trouble in the mist. Revenue are kicking up a fuss about refunded the vat even though the vehicle is of a category where you can get the vat back. It's black and white and still trouble!
One thing about these 5 seat jeeps of late that are coming under "commercial" or utility to be correct the tax is not commercial tax, for the disco, it's actually more than the tax of a private 7 seat disco model!

Thanks for this helpful reply! Are you claiming 5%bik or car rates?

BalingMad

Harrier1980 wrote: »

Thanks for this helpful reply! Are you claiming 5%bik or car rates?

Claiming 23% vat on the price of the jeep minus the vehicle registration tax.

Yawlboy

Yawlboy wrote: »

My accountant sent an email to revenue two weeks ago asking about the BIK status of the Disco and the Pajero - once he gets feedback I'll let you know.

My accountant finally got a response from the Revenue, not good :

How the vehicle is treated depends on whether it falls within the definition of a 'car' or the definition of a 'van'.
Essentially, a 'car' means; any mechanically propelled road vehicle designed, constructed or adapted for the carriage of the driver or the driver and one or more persons other than (a) a motorcycle, (b) a van or (c) a vehicle not commonly used as a private vehicle and unsuitable to be so used. The definition of a car includes motorcycles over 410kgs.
A van means a vehicle which was designed or constructed solely or mainly for the carriage of goods or other burden, and which has a roofed area or areas to the rear of the driver's seat and no seats or side windows in that area.
Adapting say a four - seater crew cab (e.g. taking out the back seats) would not change the vehicle from being a car to a van, as subsequent adaptation cannot alter the original purpose of design or construction. Even with the back seats removed, the vehicle would still be classed as a car for benefit in kind purposes having regard to the original construction. If the vehicle does fall into the definition of a van, the vehicle is not automatically excluded from the benefit in kind charge. There will be no charge to tax, where all of the following conditions are satisfied:
the van is supplied by the employer to the employee for the purposes of the employee's work,
the employee is required by the employer to bring the van home after work,
apart from travelling from work to home and back to work, other private use of the van by the employee is forbidden by the employer, and there is in fact no other private use,
in the course of his or her work, the employee spends at least 80% of his or her time away from the premises of the employer to which he or she is attached

Snake_Doctor

Just wondering - has the rules changed recently on crew cabs? I was in the Discovery version last week and I can't see how the load bay length is over 45% of the wheelbase? Or there is no Bulkhead either - has it moved to some other criteria? I cant find anything online.
Thanks.
S'Doc

gofaster_s13

Snake_Doctor wrote: »

Just wondering - has the rules changed recently on crew cabs? I was in the Discovery version last week and I can't see how the load bay length is over 45% of the wheelbase? Or there is no Bulkhead either - has it moved to some other criteria? I cant find anything online.
Thanks.
S'Doc

For these vehicles the load area of the vehicle has to measure 30% of the wheelbase and the rear door aperture has to be 12,800 square centimeters or greater.

BalingMad

News just in this week, in relation to the new seated commercial jeeps, ie the disco 4, the tax for this jeep is now officially at the commercial rate. 333

R.O.R

BalingMad wrote: »

News just in this week, in relation to the new seated commercial jeeps, ie the disco 4, the tax for this jeep is now officially at the commercial rate. 333

I'd heard that Revenue are sending letters to owners of such vehicles, with completely different information to this.

Apparently, these letters are informing the owner's that have them taxed at the €333 rate, that their tax is invalid, and they need to stump up for private tax at the CC rate.

I haven't seen these letters, and we have our Disco Utilities taxed at passenger rates, but this info did come from a Toyota dealer about their 5 Seat LandCruiser Business.

101sean

The N1 commercial status has nothing to do with how motor tax is calculated, it is for VRT and VAT purposes which makes a big saving if buying for a business. The only way to get commercial motor tax is supposed to be by providing evidence of having employees that need the extra seats.

cubix

Couple of quick questions

How come the pajero can be taxed at commercial and not the Landrover. IF they both have to be taxed at the higher rate how much does that eat into savings made on the purchase price when you compare how much extra tax you get charged.

Anyone bought one yet and how are they fairing out on BIK, always bought vans before and use them for a maintenance company which covers out of hours work so accounts always said no BIK

cubix

Below is what I got from a dealer, seems to contradict what has been said but if true will make it quite appealing as it will be another 1K or so of savings per year.

The difference is that the Disco 5 seat Utility is homologated as a Cat N1 from the factory and is not modified once it arrives in the country. Revenue tried to change the classification that it falls under but so far have failed to do so as they would affect other commercial vehicle rates. So Revenue stated that if the vehicle had seats behind the driver it could only be taxed as a private vehicle under the engine size rates which means €1,494 per year regardless of owners VAT status. In March of this year Revenue issued a statement to all motor tax offices advising them that N1 vehicles should be eligible for commercial vehicle taxation irrespective of the number of seats. This means the road tax drops to €333 per year.

Michaelm35

Hi I was reading the post this morning. I have looked at the landrover and pajero 5 seats utility jeep and I am thinking if buying one. I was told by the landrover dealer that there is a 3 month waiting time for one . A friend of mine bought one a few weeks ago and I ask him how he got on with revenue. 1. Jeep cost €57000 including vat. In the price was €8000 vrt. He was aloud claim back the vat on the price of the jeep less the vrt. Vat was around €9000. 2. His road tax us €333 a year . 3 the Bik on a commercial is standard at €40 a week but if you do over 25000km a year the Bik is zero.

vibe666

Michaelm35 wrote: »

the Bik on a commercial is standard at €40 a week but if you do over 25000km a year the Bik is zero.

You can't claim bik on anything with seats behind the drivers seats and revenue will not move on that point under any circumstances, so if he's claiming Bik on a 5 seater commercial then he's going to have problems with revenue before too long.

There's a few threads on it now and plenty of us have tried to get Bik on a 5 seater, some in principle, others for real and ALL have failed, revenue just won't have it, end of story.