ATM took my 600 EUR, no refund

pawel2006

600 EUR disappeared from my BOI bank account 2 weeks ago (27 September). I used my BOI Visa to try to get money from ATM in Dalkey (belonging to other bank - UB) twice and twice I have seen error message on the screen and no money out. Surprise at home: statement showing -600 + 600 - 600 EUR - so total charge 600 EUR for nothing! Logged the claim for refund with my BOI branch (Dublin Baggot Street) immediately. After 2 weeks response from BOI agent: refund refused and no details why. I asked BOI to produce the letter confirming the refund refuse, confirming that BOI contacted UB and why the overcharge is refused, was the ATM balanced at that time etc. BOI agent told me she should talk to her Manager if such letter can be produced and kept me on hold for couple of minutes. After that I was told by BOI agent that BOI cannot produce such letter to me. So after 2 weeks I still do not know if it was fraud or banking error.

it is very strange Bank is refusing to give a letter to customer - it simply make it more difficult for customer to follow up with other agencies like Bank Ombudsman or Gardai


Only recommendation I received today from BOI agent is that I should raise exactly the same query with BOI second time and maybe this may work this time. I did so but it sounds a bit strange/not professional as there are no new facts so how come raising the same query second time could help???. Was anyone in Ireland in similar situation with BOI or other bank? What should be my next steps?

Any advice from BOI or somebody else? What are the steps to escalate it further? I do not want to leave as somebody has taken advantage of me.

Bank of Ireland: Tara

Hi pawel2006,

Thanks for your post.

We are sorry to hear your ATM query has not been resolved as expected. 

When we raise an ATM query with another financial institution, they have the ATM in question checked to see if the figures balance. If their ATM reports a correct balance, they will reject our query. The only option available in this case, is to appeal that decision by raising another query on the transaction. 

If Ulster Bank reject the second query, you could then lodge a formal complaint through our Group Customer Complaints Team. It would be at this stage that letters would be issued.

Thanks
Tara

pawel2006

Tara,

Thank you for your quick response.

I still do not think it is acceptable that Bank of Ireland refused to issue a letter or simple email to customer confirming the facts that the query was logged and the refund was refused.  Those facts have been given to me over the phone BOI agent and I was clearly told by BOI agent that BOI Manager refused to issue the letter to me confirming the facts - you can confirm over the phone but refuse to confirm in writing.

I do not think it is protecting the best interest of customer - I needed this letter to go to the shop where the ATM was located to get access to CCTV records. Those records are available for a period between 2-4 weeks and then removed due to size. BOI suggested to raise the second query with exactly the same wording again (another 2 weeks) and then raise with BOI Group Complaints (another 2 weeks). After that period which will be already 6 weeks after unauthorised charge and it will be much more difficult for the BOI account holders to prove that BOI has charged them with unauthorised ATM withdrawal amounts.

From the posts in here and on other sites it appears to be couple of other BOI account holders in exactly the same situation in the recent days:
- person is account holder of BOI
- person tried to get money out of ATM belonging to other bank and have seen error message
- unauthorised withdrawal amount appeared on BOI bank statement

I have seen posts describing different ATM locations and always ATM belonging to different bank (AIB and UB were mentioned). The only common thing is the Bank of Ireland account. Are you investigating this issue?

Kind Regards,

Pawel

dobsdave

pawel2006 wrote: »

Tara,

Thank you for your quick response.

I still do not think it is acceptable that Bank of Ireland refused to issue a letter or simple email to customer confirming the facts that the query was logged and the refund was refused.  Those facts have been given to me over the phone BOI agent and I was clearly told by BOI agent that BOI Manager refused to issue the letter to me confirming the facts - you can confirm over the phone but refuse to confirm in writing.

I do not think it is protecting the best interest of customer - I needed this letter to go to the shop where the ATM was located to get access to CCTV records. Those records are available for a period between 2-4 weeks and then removed due to size. BOI suggested to raise the second query with exactly the same wording again (another 2 weeks) and then raise with BOI Group Complaints (another 2 weeks). After that period which will be already 6 weeks after unauthorised charge and it will be much more difficult for the BOI account holders to prove that BOI has charged them with unauthorised ATM withdrawal amounts.

From the posts in here and on other sites it appears to be couple of other BOI account holders in exactly the same situation in the recent days:
- person is account holder of BOI
- person tried to get money out of ATM belonging to other bank and have seen error message
- unauthorised withdrawal amount appeared on BOI bank statement

I have seen posts describing different ATM locations and always ATM belonging to different bank (AIB and UB were mentioned). The only common thing is the Bank of Ireland account. Are you investigating this issue?

Kind Regards,

Pawel

I tried to use my Boi credit card at a Boi atm at work last Friday and got ' your transaction has timed out'
I got no cash, but it was debited from my account.
Apparently its going to take 10 to 15 working days for a response !

tmc86

Was it the ATM on the corner by the Supervalu? I used an Ulster Bank one there (If I remember correctly) during the summer and my card was skimmed.

It was rectified but maybe ask the bank to look into it as it could have been re-fitted with a skimming device. 

T

pawel2006

dobsdave wrote: »

I tried to use my Boi credit card at a Boi atm at work last Friday and got ' your transaction has timed out'
I got no cash, but it was debited from my account.
Apparently its going to take 10 to 15 working days for a response !

I am in similar situation. I wonder how many people are impacted - I asked BOI above if they are investigating this issue, hoping they will respond. Re timing I have: 15 days for response, then I was told that for the moment they refuse
I was then asked to log again exactly the same query, with exactly the same wording to exactly the same BOI department which I did on Monday and now have another 15 days to wait. Then if not resolved will go to BOI Group Complaints Department another 2 weeks I assume. Then most people who had 20 EUR charge will leave it. And very difficult to get CCTV from shopping centres etc to prove the charge was not authorised. I have 600 EUR unauthorised charge (very substantial amount) so I will escalate as much as I can even if it will take me a year. I am hoping BOI will help as this is their best interest to fix any issues they have on their side

pawel2006

tmc86 wrote: »

Was it the ATM on the corner by the Supervalu? I used an Ulster Bank one there (If I remember correctly) during the summer and my card was skimmed.

It was rectified but maybe ask the bank to look into it as it could have been re-fitted with a skimming device. 

T

No, ATM was in Centra Barnhill. Have not noted any sign of tampering on ATM. I have seen message "cannot contact your bank, transaction timed out"

Bank of Ireland: Tara

Hi pawel2006,

The investigation is carried out by the bank who owns the ATM. In your case, the details would have been sent to Ulster Bank who would have checked their ATM. 

If you are unhappy with this procedure and how your query has been dealt with to date, please see our Group Customer Complaints section of our website where you can find information on raising a complaint.

Hi dobsdave,

Rest assured the transaction will be investigated in full. With credit cards there is a different process involved so it does take longer than an ATM query on a debit card.

Thanks
Tara

Tow

BTW You can apply for a copy of the shops CCTV footage yourself under the data protection act.  See www.dataprotection.ie for details. 

6.3 What if I am asked for a copy of CCTV footage?
Any person whose image has been recorded has a right to be given a copy of the information recorded.  To exercise that right, a person must make an application in writing. A data controller may charge up to €6.35 for responding to such a request and must respond within 40 days.  This will, of course, only apply if the recording has been retained and is available at the time the request is made.

pawel2006

To Tara (Bank of Ireland):

1) I do not accept the fact that I heard from BOI customer service agent that The BOI Manager instructed her not to confirm any facts in the written format to customer. Bank of Ireland Manager instructed the agent to say the things to customer over the phone but not to confirm anything in writing.  I was told this during the recorded conversation with the bank. Also in your post above you confirmed that this is the Standard Operating Procedure of the Bank of Ireland. This is not building my trust to Bank of Ireland and to the banking system and this is not acceptable.

2) Also I do not accept the push back by BOI - I was suggested to log the same query with the same wording for the same thing the second time with the same department - this is only pushing back for another couple of weeks. Your suggestion ( going to BOI Group Complaints) can only be done after 2 weeks from now on and then I will have to wait another couple of weeks. This push back (which will last at least 2 months) is not helpful and not acceptable. I have 600 EUR unauthorised charge and no response to date.

3) There are some other Bank of Ireland customers reporting the same (or similar) issue in the recent days on this thread and other threads in boards.ie - they mention both BOI and other banks ATMs, different ATMs locations and the only common thing is Bank of Ireland  account being charged with unauthorised transaction.  My case is not isolated - please read those posts carefully. Therefore I am suggesting you to do:
- inform your SAP ECC department in BOI that such queries have been raised in the last days and please ask Bank of Ireland SAP ECC team to perform simple walkthrough testing checking of interbank ATM transactions and their bookings on BOI customers analytical accounts. The test should show if the credits sent by other systems are properly recorded in BOI analytical customer accounts. This should be simple system testing exercise which should confirm that everything is order from BOI side;
- inform Bank of Ireland Internal Audit department about the issues reported by some customers who are claiming the money is disappearing from their accounts after trying to execute the ATM withdrawals and receiving the message "Transaction timed out, cannot contact your bank";
- inform the public how many customers have been faced with these type of problems in the last couple of weeks and what are the actions taken by Bank of Ireland


To Tow and All others who posted comments here or sent me private messages: thank you for your help and all advice, this is much appreciated and helpful!!!! I will keep you informed about the progress of my issue. Hopefully it will be resolved quickly. 600 EUR is very material but the amount is not relevant - I would have followed the same for 20 EUR.


Kind Regards,

Pawel

Bank of Ireland: Linda

Good morning Pawel,

We don't have account access here, and as per our charter, we cannot log a formal complaint through boards.ie. All we can offer at this stage is to organise a call back to look into this further for you. If you would like to send us a pm with your branch, full name and contact number; we will arrange this.

Thank you
Linda

Egass13

Happened to me last year , withdrew 120 , only gave me 70 . Rang boi , they told me the machine balanced out and basically I'm not getting my 50 euro back . And it was a boi machine in a centra . After that and several other issues I just cut my losses with them and moved on . I  hope Boucher enjoyed his few pints with my 50euro!

chainsawman

Very frightening to read about the €600 had gone missing from Pawel. Never happened to me yet, I  am always very wary of ATM machines and online banking.  I always make sure the ATM is in correct order before proceed the withdrawal, and cover the keyboard by my hand to thwart the would be robbers who would be watching somewhere. Always check the balance online as often as you can .  Hope Pawel will get his full money back, please god. 

pawel2006

@Linda (Bank of Ireland): I sent you all my contact details and my bank account number via pm. Your response is very helpful, much appreciated. This is the first time I see Bank of Ireland reacted properly and BOI wants to help me. No usual "call your 365, we will help you, you are valued customer of course, wait another 2 month and maybe we will sort you". I have already contacted the branch couple of times and really no sense of urgency from their side, lack of contact - so, Linda, thank you for your help, much appreciated. If you can ask the Baggot St branch to call me tomorrow it would be great.

@Egass13: thank you for your post. Banks are charging us for every transaction, to manage these fees I was always taking out 600 EUR once a month to save the fees on withdrawals. I never expected I would be penalised for this. Egass, in your case, you should have not left it one year ago. I know it is easy to say because we are all busy, but the fact the ATM was balanced is not a proof. ATM could have been balanced and the interface between ATM and bank ERP could not have worked properly and as a result your 50 EUR could have landed in technical account to be written off by auditors at the year end. Those 50 EUR was YOUR money it is not the bank's money. Because people just leave it as it is too much hassle to fight - we have this type of problems in Ireland, this is a legacy of Celtic Tiger, customers simply do not care about couple of Euros and the banks are not following up and investing enough in the proper controls to get the internal controls and procedures to operate effectively. There are other ways to prove YOU are right - CCTV records etc. I am forensic accountant and I have worked for Big-4 companies and I was leading couple of major investigations for frauds and errors in Europe both for financial institutions and industry clients. I never thought something like this would have happened to me personally. One thing I know is: only the fact counts and it can be proven. It may take a month, it may take a year, it may need to be taken to Courts, it may need to be taken to the press and TV to create a sense of urgency in the Bank but it will be ultimately proven. It does not matter if it is 10 EUR or 1000 EUR. It is YOUR money. If you know YOU have not taken the money out, YOU have not taken the money out. Maybe it was system error, maybe it was fraud - but this is not your problem, this is the problem of your bank. YOUR bank main job is is to protect your money and to follow up any investigation (even if it requires contacting other banks) to make sure it is sorted. No matter which ATM, which bank, which country etc. This is YOUR money, your bank's job is to protect YOUR money and you will get finally it. I will follow this (my) issue until it is resolved. You should go back to BOI and follow up your issue. It is never too late.

All: I will keep you posted.

Kind Regards

Pawel

Bank of Ireland: Linda

Thank you very much for your PM Pawel, I will respond to it now. 
Once I respond, it will be deleted as we would never ask for account numbers for security. Please be aware of that if you are contact us through boards.ie again.

Thanks
Linda

pawel2006

Linda (Bank of Ireland): thank you for passing the message to my branch. I am hoping somebody to contact me early next week. Also, I am now closing my bank account with BOI, I do not longer feel it is safe for my money to stay with your bank, so there is no more sensitivity regarding my bank account number.
Separately, could you please confirm if you have contacted your SAP ECC team department re testing of interbank ATM transactions postings, what are the results of the tests performed? Also, have you contacted the BOI  Internal Audit department as suggested in my previous posts?
Kind Regards,
Pawel

Bank of Ireland: Tara

Hi pawel2006,

As we do not have access to account information here, the only action we have taken is to forward your posts and private message to your branch. The branch will deal with the investigation from now and will look into why Ulster Bank rejected the request to refund your €600.

Thanks
Tara

pawel2006

Dear Tara, thank you for passing my information to Baggot Street branch of Bank of Ireland. I have received the call and they are looking into my issue. However, no decision/no specific answer at this stage, and it is already 1 month after I have raised the issue.

Because 600 EUR disappeared from my BOI account and I have not received any answer from BOI, I am looking into raising my query with Financial Ombudsman. I have read on FO website that bank should answer me within 40 working days (so still couple of days to go) and then I can raise the query.

Question: do you know from which day this 40 days period counts? Does it count from the first call to BOI? BOI was constantly refusing sending any letter to me, also you have confirmed in boards.ie that this is BOI policy, so how I can prove the 40 days period?

Bank of Ireland: Billy

Hi Pawel2006,
 
Thanks for posting.
 
As we do not have account access at this department, we would not know when your branch logged your complaint.
 
Please call your branch and a representative can advise of this.
 
You can find a full list of branch contact numbers here

Thanks
 

Billy

pawel2006

GOT MY MONEY BACK!!! 

After 30 days got it back. Quick advice to anyone in similar situation:

1. Get the cctv records from the shop, street etc anything independent from the banks - this will give you advantage - if you have the recording you are 100 perc you will win - maybe after 2 weeks or 2 months but you will win
2. Don't be shy, fight for your money, immediately post it on internet - in my case nothing was happening before this thread was viewed 900 times. I was told by bank the issue is investigated, ATM is balanced, all OK per banks, No refund etc. then after issue was escalated by BOI boards.ie team to my branch somehow it was found between 2 banks after 1 month that in fact ATM was..... not balanced!!!
3. Get your issues escalated to Group Complaints Department and get them to confirm in writing they are looking into the matter. Before you get this letter, nothing is happening. You are told that the query is logged once and then second time but in fact nothing is happening bar the query in the system left without action by anyone in any bank. In my case it took me almost full month to get Group Complaints Department to look at the matter and then immediately it was found out that ATM was not balanced despite previous "no refund" response!
4. If you are less lucky then I was bring it to financial ombudsman. You have lot of time to do so.
5. Don't leave it. you will get your money back

Regards

Pawel

chainsawman

pawel2006 wrote: »

GOT MY MONEY BACK!!! 

After 30 days got it back. Quick advice to anyone in similar situation:

1. Get the cctv records from the shop, street etc anything independent from the banks - this will give you advantage - if you have the recording you are 100 perc you will win - maybe after 2 weeks or 2 months but you will win
2. Don't be shy, fight for your money, immediately post it on internet - in my case nothing was happening before this thread was viewed 900 times. I was told by bank the issue is investigated, ATM is balanced, all OK per banks, No refund etc. then after issue was escalated by BOI boards.ie team to my branch somehow it was found between 2 banks after 1 month that in fact ATM was..... not balanced!!!
3. Get your issues escalated to Group Complaints Department and get them to confirm in writing they are looking into the matter. Before you get this letter, nothing is happening. You are told that the query is logged once and then second time but in fact nothing is happening bar the query in the system left without action by anyone in any bank. In my case it took me almost full month to get Group Complaints Department to look at the matter and then immediately it was found out that ATM was not balanced despite previous "no refund" response!
4. If you are less lucky then I was bring it to financial ombudsman. You have lot of time to do so.
5. Don't leave it. you will get your money back

Regards

Pawel

Thank God, you got the money back. 30 days is long time, too long indeed. Thanks for the advice.

Bank of Ireland: Michelle

Hi Pawel2006, 


We are delighted to hear Ulster Bank have reviewed your query again and have agreed to apply a refund to your account. 


We're glad this is sorted for you now.  


Thanks
Michelle  

prewtna

Bank of Ireland: Michelle wrote: »

Hi Pawel2006, 


We are delighted to hear Ulster Bank have reviewed your query again and have agreed to apply a refund to your account. 


We're glad this is sorted for you now.  


Thanks
Michelle  

ah here, Michelle! 

Putting that back onto Ulster Bank! Come on, who are you kidding? 

From the BOI customer point of view its a BOI issue. Surely, BOI should claim credit for getting it resolved (even it did take ages?!) for their customer or at least give the impression that they give a crap?

Ally Dick

prewtna wrote: »

ah here, Michelle! 

Putting that back onto Ulster Bank! Come on, who are you kidding? 

From the BOI customer point of view its a BOI issue. Surely, BOI should claim credit for getting it resolved (even it did take ages?!) for their customer or at least give the impression that they give a crap?

It was Ulster bank's fault. They claimed the machine was balanced when in fact it wasn't. I don't think banks are that buddy buddy. They have to take each other at their word.

pawel2006

Quick advice (c'tnd) I want to use my negative experience in positive way - during my "money recovery from banks" exercise I learned couple of things I would like share with people in similar situation so you can get YOUR money back in quick and efficient way despite push back you will get from the banks on the way:

1. Per legislation Bank of Ireland has 40 business days (i.e. approximately 2 months as this period does not include weekends or bank holidays) from the date you notify them of the issue within which to attempt to resolve your complaint. Before this time you cannot raise the matter to the Financial Ombudsman. IMPORTANT: this time legally counts from the date you receive the letter from BOI Complaints Department and NOT from the date you log the query first or second time via phone or in person in the branch. In my case the clock started ticking 1 month after I raise the complaint first time with BOI!!! Unbelievable but true: I raised it once, then second time and it was still not classified as "complaint" despite couple of calls! Bank of Ireland policy is not to issue any confirmation to its customers after the customer informed the bank about the issue first or second time (see posts above, including BOI confirmation of this policy). They would simply log your query and classify it as "QUESTION" or "QUERY" and not "COMPLAINT". Legally, it gives them much more time before you can raise anything with Financial Ombudsman. And during this time (=after you inform bank but before Group Complaints sends you a letter) nothing was happening in my case to solve the issue, I was told "decision is no refund" without any back up/explanations. This policy of not issuing confirmations and pushing back the commencement of 40 day period is very bad for customers in my view. You could talk to BOI a long time and then learn that BOI still legally has legally another 40 days!!!! I did not know that at the moment I raised my query first time. So the best thing to do: immediately after you spot the missing money on your account send the recommended letter directly to BOI Group Complaints Department describing the issue as "COMPLAINT" and asking for prompt action. Save the copy of this letter - you may need it after 40 days to show to Ombudsman. You decide when the 40 days period commence (=immediately after the you noted the money is missing and sent the recommended letter) and not the Bank.

2. You have 6 years to raise your query with Financial Ombudsman. Does not matter if it is 20 EUR or 600 EUR. You have 6 years to get it back. If in the last 6 years you have found your money missing on your BOI account after you tried to withdraw money form BOI or any other bank ATM:
- check if you have raised it correctly to BOI Group Complaints (see point 1 above). If you raised only at the branch or via 365 it is not sufficient, nothing might have happened - raised it again to Group Complaints and get them to confirm in writing the are looking into the matter.
- if still not resolved go to Financial Ombudsman

3. If you are sure that you have not taken the money out from ATM in the last 6 years and found it missing from your account, then whatever the bank response was at that time it may be not relevant - you can get YOUR money back.

Kind Regards,

Pawel