Driving experience - catch 22

LilyShame

Hi there

With the new laws, how do people get around getting lots of practice on the roads in between lessons with a fully licenced driver? I know the obvious is a partner, family, friends....

I actually do have my own car, but due to family circumstances, I find it difficult to get out on the road between lessons as I dont have regular access to a fully licenced driver.

How have people gotten around this? I dont have any interest in going out on my own as I dont want to risk being stopped on ls...

What I have been doing is paying a second driving instructor who is significantly cheaper, to do 2 hour lessons with me, in between the more expensive lessons.....

Have you ever paid someone cash in hand to accompany you? any other innovative ideas to bridge this catch 22??

The_B_Man

I'm in a similar situation. I bought a car and legally, i can only drive it once a week for about 15 minutes! Will need to pay for lessons in the next month just to have someone accompany me.

loobylou

Volunteerism is alive and well in the country at the moment. Is there a senior citizens or similar group in your area? An approach there might be beneficial to both parties.

doolox

Our politicos haven't got a clue.

We are a small island nation with a medium to low population density and high youth unemployment and limited job opportunities. We drive mostly manual cars so we cant have the fast training time and low driver age of the US where people can drive legally at 16.

We do not have the huge military and service infrastructure of the US and UK where many people, especially young males, learn to drive initially at a low cost to themselves. This is how many low income males get on the road in these countries.

Pragmatically, many people were forced to break the law in order to take up job opportunities at long distance from their homes when they could not afford the high rents that staying close to the job would entail. This is the way many of my former colleagues started off, getting jobs in Leixlip from homes in Tallaght, Carlow, Portlaoise etc that were close enough to drive but too far from bus routes or too awkward, one example taking 1 1/2 hours each way to get to work on the bus, versus 1/2 hour by car.....

The politicos should allow an easy to get licence for young workers to get to work in easily limited size of car at daylight hours or severely limited night hours for night shift workers. There should be an easily verifiable system to check the use of such licences by calling up supervisors and employers to check time of use of cars etc. They should not be allowed to use them for pleasure, domestic or social purposes or should not be allowed to carry passengers or tow trailers. I would also consider not allowing them in city centres or motorways if alternatives exist such as park and ride or parallel ordinary routes to the motorways.

Sheldons Brain

This is the way many of my former colleagues started off, getting jobs in Leixlip from homes in Tallaght, Carlow, Portlaoise etc that were close enough to drive but too far from bus routes or too awkward, one example taking 1 1/2 hours each way to get to work on the bus, versus 1/2 hour by car.....

The best known employers in Leixlip mostly employ people with third level qualifications, these had several years to learn to drive before getting these jobs.

MascotDec85

LilyShame wrote: »

Hi there

With the new laws, how do people get around getting lots of practice on the roads in between lessons with a fully licenced driver? I know the obvious is a partner, family, friends....

I actually do have my own car, but due to family circumstances, I find it difficult to get out on the road between lessons as I dont have regular access to a fully licenced driver.

How have people gotten around this? I dont have any interest in going out on my own as I dont want to risk being stopped on ls...

What I have been doing is paying a second driving instructor who is significantly cheaper, to do 2 hour lessons with me, in between the more expensive lessons.....

Have you ever paid someone cash in hand to accompany you? any other innovative ideas to bridge this catch 22??

Just so you know it is illegal for anyone to teach you to drive " for hire or reward" who is not an approved driving instructor

MascotDec85

doolox wrote: »

Our politicos haven't got a clue.

We are a small island nation with a medium to low population density and high youth unemployment and limited job opportunities. We drive mostly manual cars so we cant have the fast training time and low driver age of the US where people can drive legally at 16.

We do not have the huge military and service infrastructure of the US and UK where many people, especially young males, learn to drive initially at a low cost to themselves. This is how many low income males get on the road in these countries.

Pragmatically, many people were forced to break the law in order to take up job opportunities at long distance from their homes when they could not afford the high rents that staying close to the job would entail. This is the way many of my former colleagues started off, getting jobs in Leixlip from homes in Tallaght, Carlow, Portlaoise etc that were close enough to drive but too far from bus routes or too awkward, one example taking 1 1/2 hours each way to get to work on the bus, versus 1/2 hour by car.....

The politicos should allow an easy to get licence for young workers to get to work in easily limited size of car at daylight hours or severely limited night hours for night shift workers. There should be an easily verifiable system to check the use of such licences by calling up supervisors and employers to check time of use of cars etc. They should not be allowed to use them for pleasure, domestic or social purposes or should not be allowed to carry passengers or tow trailers. I would also consider not allowing them in city centres or motorways if alternatives exist such as park and ride or parallel ordinary routes to the motorways.

There's one fairly simple rule in this country (it's the same rule in the UK which more often than not is adhered to) that states you can't drive an car unless you have a full licence or are accompanied by a fully licenced driver of more than two years.
This law has been in place and flouted for years.

What makes you think that all the restrictions you've suggested above won't be ignored? Employers to check that people are driving at the right times, ehhh it's the Gardai's job to enforce. What about winter time when it's dark early.

I've a certain amount of sympathy for people from really, really rural areas but these areas are served by driving instructors too. That said the numbers who ignore the rule from major urban areas with access to public transport are huge!!

What is needed is proper enforcement. With that you will, over time get respect for the law which will lead to compliance. Driving a car is a right which has to be earned

nd

MascotDec85 wrote: »

Just so you know it is illegal for anyone to teach you to drive " for hire or reward" who is not an approved driving instructor

I don't think accompanying someone for money would come under those teaching to drive rules.

MascotDec85

nd wrote: »

I don't think accompanying someone for money would come under those teaching to drive rules.

Do you not?

I do

"Ah sure, I was only accompanying him"

What is it with people in this country that think rules don't apply to them?

nd

So you're saying it is illegal to accompany a learner driver as their sponsor if they give you money or reward you in some way?

That rule is obviously to stop people giving driving lessons for money or reward. There is a difference between giving lessons and being a sponsor.

When my dad or sister ect accompany me as a learner it is usually because they want to go somewhere. Is it illegal because they are doing it for "reward"?

MascotDec85

nd wrote: »

So you're saying it is illegal to accompany a learner driver as their sponsor if they give you money or reward you in some way?

That rule is obviously to stop people giving driving lessons for money or reward. There is a difference between giving lessons and being a sponsor.

When my dad or sister ect accompany me as a learner it is usually because they want to go somewhere. Is it illegal because they are doing it for "reward"?

That's exactly what I'm saying yes. The example you describe above is family members helping each other out. They need to go somewhere you need practice = win win and is exactly how the sponsor role plays out.

I'm talking about someone receiving cash or gifts in return for doing it. That's the definition of hire or reward.

You could eg an electrician. Your sponsor might need a few sockets changing. You might change them as a way of a thank you to your sponsor for helping you.

The law is there to protect the learner to ensure that they are getting the correct advice and proper instruction. If you'd be happy paying for potentially incorrect advice then crack on

nd

Your brother, sister dad ect could also give incorrect advise also. That's why you pay a professional instructor when you get lessons to correct your bad habits and bad advice you may haver gotten from your sponsor.

Do I think everyone should pay someone to accompany them as a learner driver? No. Do I think a lot of people do it? No. Do I think it is illegal to do so and either the learner paying or the sponsor accepting is going to be prosecuted? No.

MascotDec85

nd wrote: »

Your brother, sister dad ect could also give incorrect advise also. That's why you pay a professional instructor when you get lessons to correct your bad habits and bad advice you may haver gotten from your sponsor.

Do I think everyone should pay someone to accompany them as a learner driver? No. Do I think a lot of people do it? No. Do I think it is illegal to do so and either the learner paying or the sponsor accepting is going to be prosecuted? No.

Whether you think they will be prosecuted is immaterial. It is illegal. Someone could only be prosecuted if the authorities are aware of it.

We are getting sidetracked here anyway, the op mentioned paying someone to practice with. Legally the only person that can accept payment to help him/her practice driving is an ADI acting as sponsor.

Those are the facts

LilyShame

thats interesting to know....

LilyShame

ok so the word I should have used is 'sponsor' which usually refers to a family member of friend. So if what your saying is correct and there should be no 'market' for paid sponsors....then I would go down the volunteerism route....or..

It wouldnt be a bad idea to have a panel of driving 'angels' like business angels, usually retired experienced people that provide support to learners (drivers in this case) pro bono..... as I think there are alot of people in same boat as me and they end up doing the test again and again as they didnt build up enough hours on the road......

Maybe I will drop enda a line!!

LilyShame

ps, thanks to all the comments so far, very helpful. If anyone else has any ideas, please let me know!

challengemaster

LilyShame wrote: »

It wouldnt be a bad idea to have a panel of driving 'angels' like business angels, usually retired experienced people that provide support to learners (drivers in this case) pro bono..... as I think there are alot of people in same boat as me and they end up doing the test again and again as they didnt build up enough hours on the road......

You've hit a snag there, that most retired people with a license won't have actually sat a test for their license, and won't have any clue of what a modern test requires. Also they'll have a lot of outdated ideas and bad habits.

LilyShame

mmmmm....

another snag....the drivers who were handed their licence in late 80s.....

anyway its still a catch 22 isnt it? Ideally, to do a good job in your test, you need to have experienced many different road situations and built up driving hours....and to do that with an ADI is very very expensive...but maybe thats the only option..

H3llR4iser

I just find it odd how much Irish learner drivers moan about the need to be accompanied by a licensed driver, which is a practice that is well tested and working in the rest of the EU and may other industrialized countries in the world, yet it seems to become unfair and/or difficult to adhere to as soon as you cross the Irish sea.

This not being directed at the original poster (who I believe has the correct approach to the issue and a genuine issue), I wonder what makes it so difficult for an Irish parent to sit with their son/daughter in the car for a couple of hours a week as opposed to say a British, French or Spanish parent? Is it just a matter of mentality and the classic "it was so much better when you could turn 18, switch the engine on and go"?

The_B_Man

I can only speak for myself here, but here goes.

I am confident enough in my car. I live 3kms from work. Its literally a straight road (and a very well maintained road) until I turn into the business park where my job is. The sole point I'd make here is that if I was legally allowed drive unaccompanied, then I'd drive the <10mins to work at the slow speeds (due to traffic) every day and I'd become a better driver a lot quicker than having to rely on someone to simply sit beside me.
I can confidently drive up the road and back without that. As a result, for several reasons, I'm tied to very little driving time per week, because I do obey the rules, even when people always tell me to just risk it and drive alone as they see I'm grand to drive.


I will say, however, that there are learners I have known that are really nervous. I'd definitely have them accompanied. But, obviously it'd be too hard to gauge someones nervousness, so this law has to cover both the people that need it, and the people who don't, hence why people complain.

Imagine this example. I do my test on a Thursday and pass. But the day before on the Wednesday I'm still required by law to have someone sit beside me. In that one day, I wont have changed too much, and I'm not sure I'd change too much in the 6 weeks between now and my test.

miss no stars

The_B_Man wrote: »

I can only speak for myself here, but here goes.

I am confident enough in my car. I live 3kms from work. Its literally a straight road (and a very well maintained road) until I turn into the business park where my job is. The sole point I'd make here is that if I was legally allowed drive unaccompanied, then I'd drive the <10mins to work at the slow speeds (due to traffic) every day and I'd become a better driver a lot quicker than having to rely on someone to simply sit beside me.
I can confidently drive up the road and back without that. As a result, for several reasons, I'm tied to very little driving time per week, because I do obey the rules, even when people always tell me to just risk it and drive alone as they see I'm grand to drive.


I will say, however, that there are learners I have known that are really nervous. I'd definitely have them accompanied. But, obviously it'd be too hard to gauge someones nervousness, so this law has to cover both the people that need it, and the people who don't, hence why people complain.

Imagine this example. I do my test on a Thursday and pass. But the day before on the Wednesday I'm still required by law to have someone sit beside me. In that one day, I wont have changed too much, and I'm not sure I'd change too much in the 6 weeks between now and my test.

I know where you're coming from but consider this: if a person reckons they're safe enough to drive alone.. Take the test, pass it and drive alone.... Don't reckon they're able to pass the test? Hardly safe enough to drive alone so...


Plus, what I was always told by instructors is it's not about nervousness or operating the controls - they're learnt easily and quickly enough. It's about having someone in the car who has experience reading the road. There is no substitute for experience in reading the road. Which means that, so what if the learner can operate the car after 4 months driving...? They've only been driving for 4 months and do NOT have experience reading the road.

I don't know how true it is but I was told by a previous instructor that proportionately more accidents are caused by drivers in the first two years of being fully licensed than by any other group, learners included. That says a hell of a lot about the importance of having an experienced set of eyes in the car.

m4rkiz

H3llR4iser wrote: »

I just find it odd how much Irish learner drivers moan about the need to be accompanied by a licensed driver, which is a practice that is well tested and working in the rest of the EU

it is true only for the west of eu, in east european countries there is no such thing as learner permit at all, either you have full license or you need to be accompanied by your instructor at all times untill you pass all your exams

what would be the point of even having a learner permits (when you don't have to be accompanied by a licensed driver) if that only forces you to have L plates and prohibits you from diving on motorways and towing a trailer?

LilyShame

I think a previous poster has summarized what I was getting at. I need experience 'reading the road', which only comes with a large amount of driving hours, assessing situations and having an experienced driver with you who can give you feedback, help with better planning on the road, using good judgement .... and remember that not all family members, friends etc are happy to be sponsors, they are nervous passengers hence its not a very pleasant learning experience!!......

Liam90

My girlfriend had a Polish license, can she legally be the person who is in the car with me?

Days 298

Liam90 wrote: »

My girlfriend had a Polish license, can she legally be the person who is in the car with me?

Seeing as it's just a case of handing in the polish one for the Irish one I don't see why not.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driver_licensing/learner_driving_permits_for_cars_and_work_vehicles.html