France Claim Play-off Seeding is Unfair

noodler

France believe the seeding system is unfair for the World Cup play-offs in November and plan to ask soccer’s ruling body Fifa to review it ahead of next week’s draw.
World and European champions Spain are three points ahead in Group I and host Georgia in their final qualifier today when second-placed France, who look certain to go through to the play-offs, play Finland.
The play-off seeds will be determined by Fifa rankings and 25th-placed France face a likely meeting with another big footballing nation.
France believe the system is flawed because fewer ranking points were available in five-nation Group I while the other sections had six teams.
“We’re going to contact [Fifa],” French federation president Noel Le Graet told the radio station RMC. “There is a little injustice between the group of five and the groups of six.
“Our rivals from other groups have been able to score more points . . . that’s a fact.”
Asked if he had discussed the issue with Le Graet, coach Didier Deschamps said he was not aware of a potential appeal.
“I don’t know if my president will bring the case,” he said. “I wouldn’t go that far in saying there’s an injustice but the fact is that we are sanctioned.”
Captain Hugo Lloris also found it hard for a team who won the 1998 World Cup and reached the final in 2006 not to be seeded although he recognised it was up to the players to improve the rankings.
“France should be seeded because of their history,” he said.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/france-claim-world-cup-play-off-seeding-unfair-1.1561312





I was going to write a few comments about my lack of sympathy after the FIFA 2010 WC play-offs were seeded for them but thescore.ie seems to have summed up my feelings to a degree.


http://www.thescore.ie/france-ireland-complain-fifa-seeding-systems-1129272-Oct2013/

lertsnim

That last line about history wipes away any little amount of sympathy I might have had for them.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Ha France should be seeded because of their history? That is possibly one of the most arrogant things I've ever heard. **** all the other teams that played well recently, we should get one of their spots because we used to be good. What a load of bollox.

*May still be slightly bitter about the Henry incident.

Julez

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

arrogant

French, arrogant?? No, never!

Chancer3001

Thei argument makes sense in fairness to them.

Less teams in their group, means less games, means less points, means less ranking points.

Serves them right after Henry, but I see their point.

Wolf Club

Pardon my ignorance, but the play offs for the WC will be contested between teams within their own confederation, right? As in, France will have to play another UEFA team? If that's the case, they really shouldn't be complaining, they should be capable of beating any of the teams currently in second place in their respective groups. Some of which, (Greece, Portugal) have a pretty decent history of their own.

bren2001

Wolf Club wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance, but the play offs for the WC will be contested between teams within their own confederation, right? As in, France will have to play another UEFA team? If that's the case, they really shouldn't be complaining, they should be capable of beating any of the teams currently in second place in their respective groups. Some of which, (Greece, Portugal) have a pretty decent history of their own.

France had to play two more friendlies than any other team placed second. As a result their FIFA ranking suffered (albeit a tiny bit) as friendlies don't count as much as qualifiers.

Yes France should be able to beat the teams placed above them but why would they want a tougher draw? It is unfair on France (the same way it was unfair to retrospectively seed them in 2010) and I hope the decision to seed the play offs is reversed. This will benefit Ireland in the future as well.

EDIT: (It is also unfair on all other teams that were placed in the smaller groups in previous qualifications campaigns as this will impact on their ranking as well, I don't know if this is the case for anybody who is currently 2nd).

ArmaniJeanss

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Thei argument makes sense in fairness to them.

Less teams in their group, means less games, means less points, means less ranking points.

Serves them right after Henry, but I see their point.

I think this (any by extension the French case) is wrong as in the FIFA rankings points gained are divided by matches played anyway in order to nullify the effect of countries all over the world playing different amounts of matches.

Also all France missed out on is a game against a 'diddy nation' like Andorra where there are few points available anyway.

Michael D Not Higgins

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I think this (any by extension the French case) is wrong as in the FIFA rankings points gained are divided by matches played anyway in order to nullify the effect of countries all over the world playing different amounts of matches.

Also all France missed out on is a game against a 'diddy nation' like Andorra where there are few points available anyway.

Exactly, Sweden are ranked 24 points ahead of them. They would have to get that from the two matches against the minnows to get into the seeding, does anyone know if they could do this with two more competitive matches against someone ranked ~150

keeponhurling

All it does is show off that they seem a little scared. Not sure will that seep through to the players.

They should just get on with it FFS

I'd love to see them not qualify, karma for Henry.

Michael D Not Higgins

Actually just checked and they got more points for a win against Australia on Friday than they would against Andorra in the qualifiers.

nkay1985

France may fcuk off. A bit rich to be talking about fairness in play-offs.

Julez

Would it not, techinically, be easier to finish first/higher in a group with less teams though too?

Michael D Not Higgins

Julez wrote: »

Would it not, techinically, be easier to finish first/higher in a group with less teams though too?

I'd say it's the same since you're saying France and Spain should both get two wins against someone like San Marino or Andorra and it would leave them in the same position.

roanoke

Julez wrote: »

Would it not, techinically, be easier to finish first/higher in a group with less teams though too?

I would think the opposite. For instance if it was a 6 or 7 team group there's more chances for your rivals to slip up and drop points in games that they by rights should win every time.

This is how Ireland qualified in 1994. We basically did the business against the minnows while Denmark dropped points early on against Lithuania and Latvia.

==

As for France? Boo hoo! They plugged their free dates with games against the likes of Brazil and Uruguay but then lost the games and got zero points. I hope it bites them hard on the ass come play-off time.

By my reckoning if France had picked someone like Wales and Ireland for friendlies instead of Uruguay and Brazil and then won those friendlies they'd have actually accumulated more points than if they had won 2x extra qualifiers against Andorra or whoever.

Moneymaker

Maybe when they get beat they can appeal to be the 33rd team at the World Cup?

The_Kew_Tour

No sympathy here.

srfc19

Great chance for people to have digs at Henry!!

The man did what any other player would have done in that situation, why can't people get over that??

It's getting a little sad that people still bash on about it!

briany

srfc19 wrote: »

Great chance for people to have digs at Henry!!

The man did what any other player would have done in that situation, why can't people get over that??

It's getting a little sad that people still bash on about it!

If you're going to go out of WC qualification, I could think of few better ways, really. We were all gutted at the time but looking back, it was like somebody had ripped the last couple of pages out of one of those underdog sports movies. It was a glorious failure and while we were all so sad to miss out on WC2010, maybe we shouldn't have been, knowing what we now know about the performances of Trap's Ireland at big tournaments. The Irish team of 2010 would still have been humbled by any half decent side who were actually up for the match.

Kerrydude1981

France can jog on for themselves

Kirby

The re-seeding or double seeding of the playoff system is a complete joke to begin with. You have already had your seeding when the original groups were drawn up. That was it. Any teams who finish second should be randomly drawn against each other as this is what is balanced and fair.

The double seeding happens for monetary reasons and for no other as it usually eliminates the possibilities of two big nations being drawn against each other....and one of them not making it to a big tournament. This effects viewing figures and thus advertising profits.

It needs to go. It won't, because the almighty dollar rules both FIFA and UEFA but if they cared at all for the integrity of the game, it would be removed.

As for France, f*ck them and the horse they rode in on. They are only complaining about it now because it effects them. So they were in a group with one less team and now are a bottom seed because of it. Well, if you cared that much you should have protested the double seeding system when it was introduced.

Serves them right, arrogant tossers. And as for Lloris' comment about deserving to be seeded because of their "history", he deserves a smack.

mikeym

If France are any good they will beat the seeded team.

Red Kev

When France were seeded in the play offs for 2010 (and eventually drawn against us) did they complain when they were in the better half of the draw?

Don't think so, if so the can feck right off, no point crying about it after a few years when you realise it doesn't suit you.

Kirby wrote: »

The re-seeding or double seeding of the playoff system is a complete joke to begin with. You have already had your seeding when the original groups were drawn up. That was it. Any teams who finish second should be randomly drawn against each other as this is what is balanced and fair.

The double seeding happens for monetary reasons and for no other as it usually eliminates the possibilities of two big nations being drawn against each other....and one of them not making it to a big tournament. This effects viewing figures and thus advertising profits.

It needs to go. It won't, because the almighty dollar rules both FIFA and UEFA but if they cared at all for the integrity of the game, it would be removed.

Nail on the head there.

ColeTrain

You're not so smart now France

Idbatterim

listening to the French talk about this is like hearing FF lecturing about the economy and budget, pathetic! The bigger sides getting another advantage in play offs seedings was / is a joke, I wonder if at the time, the smaller teams rejected it and refused to accept it, what would have happened?

RikkFlair

mikeym wrote: »

If France are any good they will beat the seeded team.

The seeded team could be Portugal, that's the draw I want!

inforfun

RikkFlair wrote: »

The seeded team could be Portugal, that's the draw I want!

Me too.
And then both out.
One way or the other.

Quixoticelixer

All teams that finish second should be considered equal, Kirby's post sums it up nicely.

But if they are going to seed this draw the seedings should be decided based on the table of second placed teams (that eliminated Denmark as the second placed team with the worst record) which incidentally would have France as a seeded team. If this was their argument I'd say fair enough, but their chosen approach is laughable.

Deciding it on FIFA rankings is nonsense, as the rankings are a load of rubbish which often throw up bizarre results.

As for France? In the two qualifying games they received byes they lost a home game to Japan and hammered Australia 6-0. I think someone pointed out that the 6-0 win over Australia was worth more to them in ranking points than two victories over a 6th seeded UEFA team. And the Japan game was a wasted opportunity to earn more ranking points.

They are just embarrassing themselves wit their current whining, but the sad thing is they could well end up getting their way. I'd imagine not, but I wouldn't be surprised.

inforfun

That seeding system is a pain anyway.

Holland not seeded in Brazil after just completing the 3rd undefeated WC qualification in a row and being vice-world champion.

I am pie

Le boo hoo.

Snail eating whingers.

roanoke

Croatia will be seeded but have by far the worst record and more importantly the worst form of all 8 play-off teams. If France are unseeded then I think I'll have to feign surprise if they get Croatia.

Dempsey

“Our rivals from other groups have been able to score more points . . . that’s a fact.”

They like the seeding system when it hands them an easy draw/group not when they struggle and end up on the other side of it. My heart bleeds for them!

Hugo Lloris wrote:

“France should be seeded because of their history”

Arrogance of the highest order.

The problem is that their ego/potential revenue for UEFA/FIFA will be catered for.

Maybe they'll ask to be the 33rd team if they fail to qualify!

FatherTed

inforfun wrote: »

That seeding system is a pain anyway.

Holland not seeded in Brazil after just completing the 3rd undefeated WC qualification in a row and being vice-world champion.

Agreed. I know they had a poor Euros last year but how are they not seeded when the likes of Colombia(last WC 1998), Belgium(last WC 2002, 1 EC since 1984) or even Switzerland who most often qualify for the finals but don't usually progress past the group stages.

ArmaniJeanss

FatherTed wrote: »

Agreed. I know they had a poor Euros last year but how are they not seeded when the likes of Colombia(last WC 1998), Belgium(last WC 2002, 1 EC since 1984) or even Switzerland who most often qualify for the finals but don't usually progress past the group stages.

In fairness Holland are likely 9th in the next rankings so they are only missing the seeding by 1 place (may still even get it if Uruguay lose to Jordan) and a handful of ranking points.
Its a case of 'unfortunate' rather than some complete failure of the rankings system which by and large looks solid enough these days imo.

roanoke

FatherTed wrote: »

Agreed. I know they had a poor Euros last year but how are they not seeded when the likes of Colombia(last WC 1998), Belgium(last WC 2002, 1 EC since 1984) or even Switzerland who most often qualify for the finals but don't usually progress past the group stages.

Not disagreeing with you about Holland's high calibre, but I don't get what difference "the last time team x got to y" has to do with how good they supposedly are on 16/10/2013?

Idbatterim

Maybe they'll ask to be the 33rd team if they fail to qualify!

yeah maybe, but they will probably ask for this even without having being cheated out of a penalty shoot out! It makes me laugh people being dismissive of kicking up a fuss over being cheated out of a chance of making it to the world cup! There were millions of euro at stake, they had done well to reach the play offs, after the handball and knowing what that p**ck had potentially cost us, they should have just left the pitch and forfeited the match IMO.

FatherTed

roanoke wrote: »

Not disagreeing with you about Holland's high calibre, but I don't get what difference "the last time team x got to y" has to do with how good they supposedly are on 16/10/2013?

Well look at the this WC qualifying results then. Holland had a better campaign than those 3 teams I mentioned. Even look at the goal difference:

TEAM P W D L GD PTS
Netherlands 10 9 1 0 29 28
Belgium 10 8 2 0 14 26
Switzerland 10 7 3 0 11 24
Colombia 16 9 3 4 14 30

greendom

On paper the French team is better than any of their potential rivals in the play-offs. Form and confidence have picked up too, with the most recent results. I don't think they should complain about the seeding just get on with winning whoever they face.

inforfun

FatherTed wrote: »

Well look at the this WC qualifying results then. Holland had a better campaign than those 3 teams I mentioned. Even look at the goal difference:

TEAM P W D L GD PTS
Netherlands 10 9 1 0 29 28
Belgium 10 8 2 0 14 26
Switzerland 10 7 3 0 11 24
Colombia 16 9 3 4 14 30

You can add Uruguay there as well.

If they beat Jordan, they ll be seeded. If they go out, it will be Holland.
Go Jordan!!!

So the team finishing 5th in S-America (and had to qualify via play offs in 4 of the last 5 attempts) will be seeded while the team with the best qualifying record in Europe will not.

Lets not forget that Uruguay can still qualify only becasue Brazil is hosting it.
They would have been 6th and out if it, taking it for granted that Brazil would have finished above them in a S-America qualification.

noodler

Just confirmed seedings for play offs.

Pot One for that draw will feature Portugal, Greece, Croatia and Ukraine, who will each play two legs against one of the sides from Pot Two — France, Sweden, Romania and Iceland.

God Portugal Vs France would be awesome.

I hope Iceland get Ukraine.

Lennonist

Embarrassing whinge from the French, shows a sign of weakness and fear that they are not good enough to qualify.

Anyone know which teams are seeded and which are not? , Only interested in who Romania might draw, cos them not winning both thie play off ties means Ireland get a 2nd seed spot for the next Euro qualifier groups.

Lennonist

noodler wrote: »

Just confirmed seedings for play offs.




God Portugal Vs France would be awesome.

I hope Iceland get Ukraine.

Thanks was just asking about that.

Ciaran_B

When is the draw?

noodler

Ciaran_B wrote: »

When is the draw?

Monday apparently.

Michael D Not Higgins

Does someone have a link to the UEFA rankings? I've seen an article that claims we're 19th, but UEFA's website only has the club rankings (and national rankings based on clubs).

inforfun

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Does someone have a link to the UEFA rankings? I've seen an article that claims we're 19th, but UEFA's website only has the club rankings (and national rankings based on clubs).

http://www.world-results.net/uefa/ranking_2013.html

Lennonist

I imagine Portugal are the strongest side in pot 1, hopefully Romania will get them if they are.

Idbatterim

Pot One for that draw will feature Portugal, Greece, Croatia and Ukraine, who will each play two legs against one of the sides from Pot Two — France, Sweden, Romania and Iceland.

I cant see Romania winning home and away regardless of who they play. With regards to the French, its pathetic, they should be qualifying outright every time, how often do they end up in the play offs? Given their resources, its pathetic IMO...

Seeding the play offs is ridiculous, some teams will have done phenomenally well to get there, others will have ****ed up or underachieved and they are given another leg up! I prey that the French dont make it, I hope they are shafted by a last second cheat, and a blatant one, like Henry's, not one that is up for debate, then see what kicks off!

Michael D Not Higgins

Idbatterim wrote: »

I cant see Romania winning home and away regardless of who they play. With regards to the French, its pathetic, they should be qualifying outright every time, how often do they end up in the play offs? Given their resources, its pathetic IMO...

Seeding the play offs is ridiculous, some teams will have done phenomenally well to get there, others will have ****ed up or underachieved and they are given another leg up!

In fairness the team that finished ahead of them was Spain.

Idbatterim

In fairness the team that finished ahead of them was Spain.

yeah that is fair enough, I hadnt checked, but the fact they arent even in the top seeds is a failure in my opinion... likewise the last time they were in a playoff against us for WC 2010. I see the qualified automatically for Euro 2012...