Third level education a waste?

digzy

Haven't seen this brought up here before- I'm open to correction, but there appears to be no debate anywhere about our third level education strategy.

It makes no sense to me why the state spends such huge amounts of money on bullsh1t courses. Taking arts as an example, there's thousands of arts grads churned out each year. You need to be amongst the highest of academic achievers to gain access to a further educational programme so you're some bit employable. The same could be said of other 'broad ranging' courses like science. What happens to those who don't make it onto further education? Without trying to insult anyone, but is a pass from a 3 year arts course of any use? Now fair enough if you're paying your own way but what is the state at paying for these courses?

I discussed this with a politician previously who made a reasonable argument that the state can't predict future career prospects. However, you don't need to be the minister for education to predict that there will not be opportunities for the vast bulk of grads for whom the state are paying millions each year.

Would it not be reasonable for the state to decide that they'll pay fees for x amt of doctors, dentists, teachers, nurses etc. the rest can fund themselves. Is the state really getting value for money for its investment in terms of the tax dividend from working grads? Especially in the teaching profession, there's hundreds graduating each year despite the near impossible prospect of gaining work here. I'm out of college a decade and I remember a fair amount of loafers knocking about the arts block doing 15 hours a week. Would fellas be wasting their time if they'd to fund themselves?

Cookie_Monster

A talk I was at recently made a good point re third level. In NZ you pay fees and the gov operate a loan system much like the UK. Arts courses are generally cheap while science and eng are more expensive hence you get a lot of people not being able to afford to do them. His point was simple, make the subjects the country needs cheap (maths, science, engineering etc) and make the un-needed courses (arts etc) expensive to subsidise them.

With 3rd level being free in Ireland this is more difficult to achieve but upon reintroduction of fess or partial fees it's the way to go to help achieve the correct output for demanded subjects rather than waste million on people doing trivial subjects.

shruikan2553

I agree somewhat. While I dont think the government should fund your degree of woman's studies with philosophy people will flock into the cheaper courses. At the minute the courses are mostly filled with people who want to do the course. Say if we had electrical engineering for cheap or free, we will have plenty of them by the end of it but few will be good and enthusiastic about it while some people who would be are left out.

skafish

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

A talk I was at recently made a good point re third level. In NZ you pay fees and the gov operate a loan system much like the UK. Arts courses are generally cheap while science and eng are more expensive hence you get a lot of people not being able to afford to do them. His point was simple, make the subjects the country needs cheap (maths, science, engineering etc) and make the un-needed courses (arts etc) expensive to subsidise them.

With 3rd level being free in Ireland this is more difficult to achieve but upon reintroduction of fess or partial fees it's the way to go to help achieve the correct output for demanded subjects rather than waste million on people doing trivial subjects.

Good plan.

Mind you, one of the worst decisions made by an Irish government was the abolition of third level fees. What money there is available for education should be provided to primary and secondary level.
Most people* with third level educations have a higher earning potential than those without; personally I feel it right that we either make a serious contribution (as I did.... back in the day), or pay back through additional taxes (apparently this is what happens in certain countries... Graduates pay an extra 1% income tax for the first number of years in work).

* I say most, because some degrees are, and have always been useless.

Rightwing

skafish wrote: »

Good plan.

Mind you, one of the worst decisions made by an Irish government was the abolition of third level fees. What money there is available for education should be provided to primary and secondary level.
Most people* with third level educations have a higher earning potential than those without; personally I feel it right that we either make a serious contribution (as I did.... back in the day), or pay back through additional taxes (apparently this is what happens in certain countries... Graduates pay an extra 1% income tax for the first number of years in work).

* I say most, because some degrees are, and have always been useless.

I disagree, they also just squander it. We have primary prinicpals wandering around all day and not even teaching :rolleyes: . There is too much spent on education across the board.

Plus, aren't registeration fees for 3rd level almost €2K these days?

I agree with the OP, some courses are a waste of space.

Sleepy

On the basis of equality of access I'm generally in favour of free third level education. Even without a specific graduate tax, graduates tend to pay more in tax than those who haven't had third level education.

That said, I believe we should only be providing large scale funding for degrees that provide students with marketable skills (i.e. Science, Engineering, Business, Medicine, Language/Maths based Arts Degrees etc.) while limiting the funding of Universities for the less employable liberal arts degrees to lower numbers.

While this would obviously improve the general employability of our graduates, it could also actually have a beneficial impact on one key utilisation of Arts graduates: with fewer positions available for students to train to become teachers, demand will see a rise in the calibre of those pursuing this career path (by virtue of the CAO / an interview process) which should, over time, get rid of the situation where we have hundreds, if not thousands, graduating each year to fight for part-time teaching hours against those who graduated last year in the same position and eventually result in a higher quality of teacher.

TL/DR: don't eliminate funding for third level, force the third level institutes to provide more places on the courses that can actually help generate employment whilst reducing the funding for a low level of liberal arts courses without completely eliminating it.

Baybay

Rightwing wrote: »

Plus, aren't registeration fees for 3rd level almost €2K these days?
.

E2,500

Gran Hermano

I know graduates with arts degrees working in finance/banking or ICT and contributing EUR 40-60k in income tax each year. You could say they are contributing more than the likes of civil engineers or doctors and teachers who are unemployed or have emigrated.

I'd look at the person more so than the course to a certain extent. Before free fees people needed the drive and ambition to do any degree.

Not having worked for a decade since graduating tells me more about the person than what they studied.

hfallada

OP we live in a country that having a third level education is essential. Multinational employers and even irish employers will not consider people without a college degree. If you have a college degree you are significantly more likely to be in a job at the moment. Although I think people doing dentistry, medicine and veterinary should all pay a greater amount of fees considering they cost the tax payer nearly €15,000 a year per student.

An Art degree is no longer a piece of paper. You can actually do decent subjects like Economics, German, Business etc. Its not just ancient Greek and roman civilizations. You could argue Business is an arts subject, although you need 470 points for it in UCD now and graduates end up in the likes of KPMG, Deloitte, so its not a BS degree. Arts is what you make of it. You can sit around smoking and doing nothing. But a lot of people in paid employment do that too.

I think for every €1 you put into colleges, the state gets €7 back in taxes. College isnt free anymore. Its €2,500 this year and will continue to rise by €250 for the foreseeable future. Cheap college education has allowed people from "poorer backgrounds" the opportunity to go to college and hopefully not end up on welfare like their parents. Cutting college funding is more than likely false economy

Rightwing

hfallada wrote: »

OP we live in a country that having a third level education is essential. Multinational employers and even irish employers will not consider people without a college degree. If you have a college degree you are significantly more likely to be in a job at the moment. Although I think people doing dentistry, medicine and veterinary should all pay a greater amount of fees considering they cost the tax payer nearly €15,000 a year per student.

An Art degree is no longer a piece of paper. You can actually do decent subjects like Economics, German, Business etc. Its not just ancient Greek and roman civilizations. You could argue Business is an arts subject, although you need 470 points for it in UCD now and graduates end up in the likes of KPMG, Deloitte, so its not a BS degree. Arts is what you make of it. You can sit around smoking and doing nothing. But a lot of people in paid employment do that too.

I think for every €1 you put into colleges, the state gets €7 back in taxes. College isnt free anymore. Its €2,500 this year and will continue to rise by €250 for the foreseeable future. Cheap college education has allowed people from "poorer backgrounds" the opportunity to go to college and hopefully not end up on welfare like their parents. Cutting college funding is more than likely false economy

It's not about actual costs, but whether these 3rd level institutions are providing value for money. Few argue against going to Uni, my problem is the wasteful behaviour of these 3rd level institutions.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

I disagree, they also just squander it. We have primary prinicpals wandering around all day and not even teaching :rolleyes: . There is too much spent on education across the board.

Plus, aren't registeration fees for 3rd level almost €2K these days?

I agree with the OP, some courses are a waste of space.

That's hugely ignorant if you think that's all primary principals do

The organisation of a primary school is a massive task, just because they're not teaching doesn't mean they're wandering aimlessly around the halls

Sheldons Brain

There are two quite different issues here. Is third level delivered efficiently and are the courses it delivers of value in themselves. Arguably third level is one of the few public services in Ireland that delivers a service comparable to other European countries. But there is a debate as to whether you can usefully just provide more and more third level education to people who are increasingly less able and less interested.

Rightwing

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

There are two quite different issues here. Is third level delivered efficiently and are the courses it delivers of value in themselves. Arguably third level is one of the few public services in Ireland that delivers a service comparable to other European countries. But there is a debate as to whether you can usefully just provide more and more third level education to people who are increasingly less able and less interested.

The league tables would suggest that our universities are way off the pace.

Half of these ITs should be closed down or merged.

ardmacha

The league tables would suggest that our universities are way off the pace.

Is it not the case that Ireland's average position in these league tables is one of the highest in the world? Yes there only one or two in the top 200, but this State only has 0.37% of the population of the OECD and 0.07% of the population of the world.

robp

Its one thing to say that degree fees shouldn't be subsidised where the degrees are not needed by the economy but it is another thing to stop funding the degrees the dept of education does not deems markable. How can we say they are not useful when clearly many people use them to springboard to many diverse successful careers.

If we are to only fund what the economy needs then we will have to stop giving such privileged mystic status to STEM fields. Arts has a reputation as not useful but the economy does in fact need x amount of English teachers and x amount of archaeologists. There is a huge oversupply but some are needed. Certainly the Irish economy needs more English teachers then zoologists, botanists or theoretical physicists.

Rightwing wrote: »

The league tables would suggest that our universities are way off the pace.

Half of these ITs should be closed down or merged.

League tables allow for different sizes. merging won't necessarily lead to an increasing in rank. The league tables show Irish universities are doing rather well. Very well infact compared to our European counterparts. Sure we do awful against Britain and the USA but the fact that countries like France and Germany do so mediocre against Britain reminds us we are doing well in the league tables. Actually I would argue the league tables may be bias against our European counterparts in favour of us. Our ITs are not universities and have comparable institutions elsewhere. League tables should not be involved in discussion about these imho.

digzy

Gran Hermano wrote: »

I know graduates with arts degrees working in finance/banking or ICT and contributing EUR 40-60k in income tax each year. You could say they are contributing more than the likes of civil engineers or doctors and teachers who are unemployed or have emigrated.

I'd look at the person more so than the course to a certain extent. Before free fees people needed the drive and ambition to do any degree.

Not having worked for a decade since graduating tells me more about the person than what they studied.

Just so we're clear I'm not trying to dismiss people with arts degrees-I have one myself. I'm just questioning the States funding of every third level course. Surely if the state is paying the fees, it deserves graduates who'll be more 'employable'.
I didn't want to single out arts as there's plenty other culprits. My sister is thinking of doing 'liberal arts' in Mary I limerick next year and that's what got me thinking. I accept that there's plenty arts grads working, but what percentage of the grads go straight into graduate employment. If you look at courses like vet, dent, med etc all those grads work in that -unless they choose otherwise- even though most of them have to emigrate. A fair few will return eventually I'd imagine.

robp

ardmacha wrote: »

Is it not the case that Ireland's average position in these league tables is one of the highest in the world? Yes there only one or two in the top 200, but this State only has 0.37% of the population of the OECD and 0.07% of the population of the world.

True but we probably don't deserve that. For example much great research in Germany doesn't happen in universities and is omitted from the rankings.

OldNotWIse

Agree completely. I've a state funded degree in chemistry that I used for about 6 months in the pharma industry. Aside from that, a complete waste of my time and someone else's money.

Now I'm paying over 5 thousand a year to do something I actually want...maybe we'd think more carefully about our choices if we had to foot the bill from day one.

Amirani

robp wrote: »

True but we probably don't deserve that. For example much great research in Germany doesn't happen in universities and is omitted from the rankings.

This post makes no sense? Irish Universities shouldn't be ranked where they are because some businesses in other countries are doing great research? What does that have to do with rankings on the quality of universities?

adocholiday

I did an Arts degree from 04-07. I then went straight from that into a clerical position in the civil service. I went back to college to do a Computer Science conversion course in 2011 and now work for an IT consultancy firm.

I wouldn't be where I am if I hadn't done the Arts degree because I definitely would have failed Comp Sci if I had gone straight into it after the leaving cert. Fair enough my case is fairly unique and there are many Arts grads out there with no marketable skills etc. but there is value to be had in an Arts degree.

To address the OP's issue: I would absolutely be in favour of a loan system for college where the student begins paying back after 3 years or their salary exceeds a certain figure. Such a scheme would achieve a number of things. It would discourage people from attending college courses just for the sake of it. As a result it would free up a lot of places in courses for people that want to do it and also drive down the costs of the uni's themselves. A reduced number of students could also allow certain institutions to merge courses and provide a higher standard. It also reduces costs to the Government.

The E2500 cost of sending a child to college at the moment is very prohibitive, especially given the economic situation. I know my parents wouldn't be able to afford to send me to college now with the costs. It was less than a grand per year when I was doing my undergrad. A loan system would put the onus on the student to do well and to pick a course that they like because ultimately they will pay for it themselves.

Obviously there are arguments against such a scheme also, but I think its the best long term option

Rightwing

Ireland’s seven public universities are all ranked within the world’s top 700 in the 2012/13 QS World University Rankings, as is one of the 14 institutes of technology. Three make the top 200: Trinity College Dublin (TCD) at 67, University College Dublin (UCD), 131, and University College Cork, 190


I wouldn't like to see the ones that are worse than Irish unis.

Chuckle chuckle.

Amirani

Rightwing wrote: »

Ireland’s seven public universities are all ranked within the world’s top 700 in the 2012/13 QS World University Rankings, as is one of the 14 institutes of technology. Three make the top 200: Trinity College Dublin (TCD) at 67, University College Dublin (UCD), 131, and University College Cork, 190


I wouldn't like to see the ones that are worse than Irish unis.

Chuckle chuckle.

Why? Have you experienced all the Irish universities or do you just have that common belief that all things Irish are ****?

dearg lady

tbh if people are now paying 2,500 per year for a course they are paying a sizable chunk of the cost of an arts degree.

Rightwing

NiallSparky wrote: »

Why? Have you experienced all the Irish universities or do you just have that common belief that all things Irish are ****?

I certainly haven't.

Most things Irish are, but we tend to think we are world class. A bit like when Gatty dropped BOD, the place almost went bananas.

You need standards, ok, we may be better than Greek or Portugese universities. But they are also bankrupt.

NaFianna2000

As far a 3rd level goes, I believe most lecturers are way overpaid and tend to be more interested in their own pet projects than their students or getting them ready for industry. Some of the lecturers I had in DCU (Computer Applications) sneered at the possibility of having to work in industry i.e. the real world.

robp

NiallSparky wrote: »

This post makes no sense? Irish Universities shouldn't be ranked where they are because some businesses in other countries are doing great research? What does that have to do with rankings on the quality of universities?

The are quite a few reasons why I suspect several of the ranking systems are bias towards English speaking countries. I did not explain most of them here.

In Germany a huge amount of cutting edge research is conducted in Government run research Institutions that exist outside of the universities. Like the Max Planck society. In France CNRS is similar. I am not referring to R&D by private businesses. I am speaking about publicly funded fundelmental research. yes, this will not create a bias in favour UCD against Berlin university but if we seek to measure the research output of countries as a whole the league tables will mislead us. That is my point.

Jelly2

Rightwing wrote: »

Ireland’s seven public universities are all ranked within the world’s top 700 in the 2012/13 QS World University Rankings, as is one of the 14 institutes of technology. Three make the top 200: Trinity College Dublin (TCD) at 67, University College Dublin (UCD), 131, and University College Cork, 190


I wouldn't like to see the ones that are worse than Irish unis.

Chuckle chuckle.

What, the 5300 universities that finished below the Irish universities? You haven't a clue what you're talking about.

robp

NaFianna2000 wrote: »

As far a 3rd level goes, I believe most lecturers are way overpaid and tend to be more interested in their own pet projects than their students or getting them ready for industry. Some of the lecturers I had in DCU (Computer Applications) sneered at the possibility of having to work in industry i.e. the real world.

You can't use your experience in DCU to generalise everywhere. You also need to bear in mind the whole system world wide trains lecturers to be excellent researchers that do some teaching not excellent teachers per see. They don't see themselves as teachers first and foremost because if they did they will never get a job or be promoted. That been said many take teaching seriously and are excellent at it.

Frank Black

Getting large swathes of the population educated to third level degree standard is essential for this Country's future.
What do you think the employment landscape will look like in 20years time?
We're not a country that are going to ever beat places like India or China in terms of labour rates, we've feck all natural resources to sell on the global market and we are never going to have a large scale production based economy and we've already tried the 'just sell each other over-priced houses' method and that didn't work out so well - so what does that leave?

Business Services.

We need to position this country as an attractive place for large multi national corporations to estbalish here. We're obviously doing this already, but we need to keep pushing. Access to an third-level degree educated workforce is crucial to this. You can argue all you want about the merits of certain degrees, but this can be addressed with a more target approach and closer integration between universities and business.

Rightwing

Jelly2 wrote: »

What, the 5300 universities that finished below the Irish universities? You haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Businesses constantly tell us that uni's are not providing graduates with the skills they need. I think I'll listen to them.

What we need is our unis to collaborate with business:
THE PUBLICATION OF the Times Higher Education survey at the beginning of this week didn’t show Ireland in its best light. It concluded that universities in Ireland have one of the worst records in attracting big business to invest in collaborative research and development.

paulmurphyvec

i want to go college someday but as a single parent and one the way it will have to wait and i hope to be the best doctor in the world when i finish my studies

Amirani

Rightwing wrote: »

I certainly haven't.

Most things Irish are, but we tend to think we are world class. A bit like when Gatty dropped BOD, the place almost went bananas.

You need standards, ok, we may be better than Greek or Portugese universities. But they are also bankrupt.

I agree with you on the whole "world-class" thing. That stuff generally gets thrown about by some fools living in a bubble. We're nowhere near world-class in terms of how we educate our citizens. I go to TCD, which while being a relatively good and well renowned university, is still a considerable distance behind the elite universities around the World.

The major thing stopping the progression of Irish universities really is the funding model currently in place from Government. Not all degrees are equal, and this should be more pronounced in the exchequer compensation that Universities receive. Currently universities are funded based on student numbers, there should definitely be more weight given to whether the students are doing courses that are of strategic importance to the economy.

Rightwing

NiallSparky wrote: »

I agree with you on the whole "world-class" thing. That stuff generally gets thrown about by some fools living in a bubble. We're nowhere near world-class in terms of how we educate our citizens. I go to TCD, which while being a relatively good and well renowned university, is still a considerable distance behind the elite universities around the World.

The major thing stopping the progression of Irish universities really is the funding model currently in place from Government. Not all degrees are equal, and this should be more pronounced in the exchequer compensation that Universities receive. Currently universities are funded based on student numbers, there should definitely be more weight given to whether the students are doing courses that are of strategic importance to the economy.

Very good point, but the unfortunate point is, that wouldn't be popular.

ardmacha

It concluded that universities in Ireland have one of the worst records in attracting big business to invest in collaborative research and development.

Is this a problem with the universities, or a problem with the small minded nature of Irish business, which is happy to take but not give?

Rightwing

ardmacha wrote: »

Is this a problem with the universities, or a problem with the small minded nature of Irish business, which is happy to take but not give?

There's an element of truth in that, but I do think any business in this country gives a lot, 1 way or another. Universities have to respond to needs of the workplace in the country they operate in. Ok, we be able to provide people who can teach English in China or the arabs for instance, but I fail to see what value Ireland gets from that.

Jelly2

Rightwing wrote: »

Businesses constantly tell us that uni's are not providing graduates with the skills they need. I think I'll listen to them.

What we need is our unis to collaborate with business:
THE PUBLICATION OF the Times Higher Education survey at the beginning of this week didn’t show Ireland in its best light. It concluded that universities in Ireland have one of the worst records in attracting big business to invest in collaborative research and development.

Imperfect though they are, league tables do not just measure collaboration, nor should they. Universities are not simply Gradgrind schools for industry, they serve society in multiple other ways.

Frank Black

Jelly2 wrote: »

Universities are not simply Gradgrind schools for industry, they serve society in multiple other ways.

It shouldn't be their exclusive role, but it should be their primary one.

Jelly2

Frank Black wrote: »

It shouldn't be their exclusive role, but it should be their primary one.

Why?

imitation

dearg lady wrote: »

tbh if people are now paying 2,500 per year for a course they are paying a sizable chunk of the cost of an arts degree.

I dont know, i think the full cost would be a lot more. People dont realise what it costs in many countries to go to even a half decent college. Think of the costs of keeping class rooms, workshops, staff, IT licenses etc

On topic, I agree with the concept, but almost every degree has a profession, its just a lot of them have few jobs, are too popular or pay poorly, where do you stop ? Maybe ancient greek is a bit frivolous, but hey so is architecture right now.

Rightwing

imitation wrote: »

I dont know, i think the full cost would be a lot more. People dont realise what it costs in many countries to go to even a half decent college. Think of the costs of keeping class rooms, workshops, staff, IT licenses etc

On topic, I agree with the concept, but almost every degree has a profession, its just a lot of them have few jobs, are too popular or pay poorly, where do you stop ? Maybe ancient greek is a bit frivolous, but hey so is architecture right now.

Well it is, because a lecturer would need a €100K+ to take out his notes.

Isn't the head of UCC on €232K....and wait for it,,,,he is struggling.


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/life-is-a-struggle-on-232000-says-university-president-26895973.html
The president of University College Cork, Dr Michael Murphy, who is paid €232,000 a year, has described how the heads of Irish universities "are as challenged at paying their bills as anyone else".

Frank Black

Jelly2 wrote: »

Why?

Because a University education should equip a person to make a contribution to society - especially if society is going to fund most of the cost of such an education - and the best and most valuable way for a person to contribute to society is through the work he or she does.

Rightwing

Frank Black wrote: »

Because a University education should equip a person to make a contribution to society - especially if society is going to fund most of the cost of such an education - and the best and most valuable way for a person to contribute to society is through the work he or she does.

Indeed.

Sometime I think people just post anything to try and be popular, like someone saying 'Maynooth is world class'. Then they'll check back a day later to see how many thanks they've got :rolleyes:

Jelly2

Rightwing wrote: »

Well it is, because a lecturer would need a €100K+ to take out his notes.

Isn't the head of UCC on €232K....and wait for it,,,,he is struggling.


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/life-is-a-struggle-on-232000-says-university-president-26895973.html
The president of University College Cork, Dr Michael Murphy, who is paid €232,000 a year, has described how the heads of Irish universities "are as challenged at paying their bills as anyone else".

Again, you don't have a clue. The vast majority of lecturers in universities are not on anything like that.

Jelly2

Frank Black wrote: »

Because a University education should equip a person to make a contribution to society - especially if society is going to fund most of the cost of such an education - and the best and most valuable way for a person to contribute to society is through the work he or she does.

The best and most valuable contribution is through the work he or she does? That is completely ridiculous, unless you define your place in society by the work you do.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Jelly2 wrote: »

Again, you don't have a clue. The vast majority of lecturers in universities are not on anything like that.

Best lecturer I had in college told me she was on 25k a year (she was teaching while doing a PHD). Taking the head of a Universities salary and trying to imply that all lecturers are overpaid is nonsense

ardmacha

The president of University College Cork, Dr Michael Murphy, who is paid €232,000 a year, has described how the heads of Irish universities "are as challenged at paying their bills as anyone else".

It isn't useful to give the salary of the chief executive of an organisation as a real indication of the work of others in that organisation.
But even if it is, as you complained about Ireland's performance in the university rankings, how many of the top 100 or 200 in that ranking earn less than this?

Rightwing

Jelly2 wrote: »

Again, you don't have a clue. The vast majority of lecturers in universities are not on anything like that.

I deal with facts, not fiction.

ardmacha

I deal with facts, not fiction.

Because you say it, does not make it so.

Rightwing

ardmacha wrote: »

Because you say it, does not make it so.

Alas it does. The head of UCC is on €232K is a fact. Anyone disputing this doesn't understand what a fact is.

Other claims that we have world class universities aren't facts.

ardmacha

The head of UCC is on €232K is a fact.

This is not a fact.

Rightwing

Rightwing wrote: »

Alas it does. The head of UCC is on €232K is a fact. Anyone disputing this doesn't understand what a fact is.

Other claims that we have world class universities aren't facts.

What point are you actually trying to make at this stage?