ID numbers for households

Mykola

Are these ID numbers (that the Government/media are calling postcodes) legal under data protection law ?

Aka Ishur

Mykola wrote: »

Are these ID numbers (that the Government/media are calling postcodes) legal under data protection law ?

how is this different from your address?

Paulw

Would your address also not comply with the Data Protection Act under your question?

What section of the Data Protection Act do you believe it doesn't comply with?

Cody Pomeray

As aka ishur indicates, a post code is merely an address, using a numerical formulation.

Just like your house can be described in words, so too may it be described in latitude and longitude, or whatever other reference system a man can conceive.

As long as there is no post code directory, similar to a telephone book with names in it without the permission of the householder, I don't see the problem.

Aka Ishur

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

As long as there is no post code directory, similar to a telephone book, I don't see the problem.

I would anticipate that there will be a post code -> address directory, just no names will be associated with the addresses

Cody Pomeray

yes indeed, post edited to clarify.

source

I'm probably going to regret asking this, but why do you want to know this op?

What has led you to ask this question, a bit more context would be helpful.

Edit:

Never mind, just found this:

Mykola wrote: »

Don't be fooled. this is is Not a postcode.This is a code to make sure nobody gets away with not paying TV licence, water charges, Property tax. waste charges

It would appear to be conspiracy theory time again,

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Going Forward

source wrote: »

I'm probably going to regret asking this, but why do you want to know this op?

What has led you to ask this question, a bit more context would be helpful.

Edit:

Never mind, just found this:


It would appear to be conspiracy theory time again,

He's right of course, unless I'm very mistaken, the ahem, postal system seems to be working quite well without postcodes so far?

source

Going Forward wrote: »

He's right of course, unless I'm very mistaken, the ahem, postal system seems to be working quite well without postcodes so far?

The postal system works okay at best, because an post run their own code system.

For everyone else, couriers, service providers, food delivery drivers, emergency services, taxis etc the current system doesn't work.

With proper post codes, the lives of all these service providers is made much easier.

I really don't get the panic about this, they're being used all over the world. Why is it when something like this is introduced to Ireland people get all up in arms?

coylemj

Going Forward wrote: »

He's right of course, unless I'm very mistaken, the ahem, postal system seems to be working quite well without postcodes so far?

There appears to be a problem in rural areas when an ambulances or fire brigade is called, especially when you have two families with the same surname in the same townland or village. Most rural people don't have a house number or street address, assigning a postcode to every house will fix that issue.

Agree that the postal system works ok but there's more to it than An Post.

Going Forward

coylemj wrote: »

There appears to be a problem in rural areas when an ambulances or fire brigade is called, especially when you have two families with the same surname in the same townland or village. Most rural people don't have a house number or street address, assigning a postcode to every house will fix that issue.

Agree that the postal system works ok but there's more to it than An Post.

Yes, you are correct, the complete lack of any even basic coherent system (the boreen L road numbering attempt is an example of something being haphazardly applied at best) is a reflection of the Irish "ah shure, it'll do.." attitude.

I just smile at the "official" "postal" aspect emphasis of this exercise and accept that it's part of a wider and ultimately quite logical plan to nail down things once and for all - PPS numbers to postcodes/benefits/property tax etc. etc.-real government Big Data!

Or am I giving them too much credit?:rolleyes:

Victor

Going Forward wrote: »

Yes, you are correct, the complete lack of any even basic coherent system (the boreen L road numbering attempt is an example of something being haphazardly applied at best) is a reflection of the Irish "ah shure, it'll do.." attitude.

I just smile at the "official" "postal" aspect emphasis of this exercise and accept that it's part of a wider and ultimately quite logical plan to nail down things once and for all - PPS numbers to postcodes/benefits/property tax etc. etc.-real government Big Data!

Or am I giving them too much credit?:rolleyes:

Swings and roundabouts. If you want the ambulance, fire brigade, etc. you have to pay the taxes.

However, the pressure for this came from the courier industry as they were unable to compete with An Post.

Condatis

Over the past few years signs have been erected at street corners in Dublin suburbs. These signs have a letter and numbers.

Are they part of the new post code system?

Peppa Pig

Am I missing something here?
The postcodes are hardly house specific. I live in a cul-de-sac with four houses in it. Surely we will all have the same postcode, like in the UK? Then when you find the area you use the address to get the specific house.

Mykola

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Am I missing something here?
The postcodes are hardly house specific. I live in a cul-de-sac with four houses in it. Surely we will all have the same postcode, like in the UK? Then when you find the area you use the address to get the specific house.

These will be house specific.Every house in Ireland will have an individual code

hullaballoo

Mykola wrote: »

These will be house specific.Every house in Ireland will have an individual code

Where are you getting that from out of interest? I cannot see anything official indicating that this will be the case. Without wanting to disparage, journalists in Ireland generally aren't great on the finer details of these things.

Mykola

hullaballoo wrote: »

Where are you getting that from out of interest? I cannot see anything official indicating that this will be the case. Without wanting to disparage, journalists in Ireland generally aren't great on the finer details of these things.

www.rte.ie/news/2013/1008/479116-nationwide-postcode/

Paulw

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Am I missing something here?
The postcodes are hardly house specific. I live in a cul-de-sac with four houses in it. Surely we will all have the same postcode, like in the UK? Then when you find the area you use the address to get the specific house.

Yep, you are missing something. Every individual property will have it's own unique postcode -

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2013/RABBITTE+GETS+GREEN+LIGHT+NEXT+GEN+POSTCODE+BY+2015.htm

hullaballoo

That seems like a pretty hefty challenge for Capita to manage with just over a year to go.

I wonder if some of the more densely populated Dublin postal areas will need to be sub-divided given there will only be 10,000 possible numbers to be divided between them? I imagine areas like D4 having > 10,000 individual residential units.

Paulw

I agree. It will be interesting to see how they work things out. I think they claimed that they wanted to use the Dublin codes in the new system - D4 becomes D04 xxxx, but the xxxx will be Hex, I think, so you will have about 65,500 possible units within the area.

I guess they have a year to get it all working.

IRLConor

hullaballoo wrote: »

That seems like a pretty hefty challenge for Capita to manage with just over a year to go.

I wonder if some of the more densely populated Dublin postal areas will need to be sub-divided given there will only be 10,000 possible numbers to be divided between them? I imagine areas like D4 having > 10,000 individual residential units.

What's the alphabet for the last 4 characters?

If it's hexadecimal ([0-9A-F]) then there are 65,536 possible individual addresses per area. If it's the full alphabet plus digits minus O, 0, I and 1 (to minimise confusion) then it's 1,048,576 possible codes per area.

Riskymove

never mind

enda1

Paulw wrote: »

I agree. It will be interesting to see how they work things out. I think they claimed that they wanted to use the Dublin codes in the new system - D4 becomes D04 xxxx, but the xxxx will be Hex, I think, so you will have about 65,500 possible units within the area.

I guess they have a year to get it all working.

Hex, really? I thought it would be like in the link "B2CD" so alpha-numer-alpha-alpha. That would lead to 175,600 variations assuming every character was applicable. But maybe they'd leave out I,O,0 etc. - the confusing ones.

coylemj

I'd say one of the digits will be a check digit to validate the code, that will reduce the number of combinations since effectively there will then be just three usable characters after the (three character) area code. That would still leave 32,768 combinations using A-Z & 0-9 but excluding 0, O, 1 & I i.e. 32 to the power of 3 (2^15).

IRLConor

coylemj wrote: »

I'd say one of the digits will be a check digit to validate the code, that will reduce the number of combinations since effectively there will then be just three usable characters after the (three character) area code. That would still leave 32,768 combinations using A-Z & 0-9 but excluding 0, O, 1 & I i.e. 32 to the power of 3 (2^15).

32^4 is 2^20. They probably won't need 5 bits for a checksum of a 20 bit number. One or two check bits would give them roughly half or a quarter of a million addresses.

coylemj

IRLConor wrote: »

32^4 is 2^20.

And your point is?

IRLConor wrote: »

They probably won't need 5 bits for a checksum of a 20 bit number. One or two check bits would give them roughly half or a quarter of a million addresses.

Bringing bits into it is getting way too technical. This is a postcode we're talking about, a string of alphanumeric characters which in many cases will be handwritten (holiday postcards, birthday cards etc.) so a check digit to catch errors will be needed.

A single character as a check digit catches errors where people write down an address but mistype one of the postcode characters. Unless they mistype two of them and by sheer fluke manage to type a valid code, that will catch 99% of transcription errors.

So based on Dublin using the first three characters to replace the current postal district, that leaves three characters for the unique house code which using 32 characters gives 32,768 combinations.

IRLConor

coylemj wrote: »

And your point is?



Bringing bits into it is getting way too technical. This is a postcode we're talking about, a string of alphanumeric characters which in many cases will be handwritten (holiday postcards, birthday cards etc.) so a check digit to catch errors will be needed.

A single character as a check digit catches errors where people write down an address but mistype one of the postcode characters. Unless they mistype two of them and by sheer fluke manage to type a valid code, that will catch 99% of transcription errors.

Do you think the check digits will be checked by hand? No. The complexity of calculating the checksum is irrelevant, hence using fewer than one digit in return for a bigger address space makes sense.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Paulw

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

An Post sorting has been done by machine now since the late 80s/early 90s.

I assume that they will just need a software update to include/read postcodes.

SpaceTime

It shouldn't really make all that much difference for An Post other than to improve the accuracy of sorting by making the addresses a bit easier to interpret.

As I understand it, they actually have to manually read and key in addresses that the system can't read or that are confusing. Remember there can be umpteen versions of the same address and sometimes Irish or English versions too. That's creating a major task for a computer system to deal with that would be totally eliminated by a code.

The current system reads the address on the envelope with a camera. Then compares that to a database of addresses and matches it up. Then it sprays an orange barcode onto the back of the letter which is what's actually used to sort it.

As you can imagine, it's a lot easier for a computer system to read A12 BC1E than:

'Incognito'
Windy Road,
Ballymysterious,
Co. Offaly

which could be written in curly handwriting or in Irish.


Basically the current system attempts to read the address and assign your letter to a particular delivery office at the least and possibly could even get down to a postman's route (not sure how accurate it is)

The problem with the lack of codes and also with very vague and fluffy addresses is that couriers, ambulances, fire services, taxies etc etc can't find locations very easily.

The Government already has a big list of all addresses and a code number for each of them for property tax, so that's not the reason it's being done. An Post has a similar database which it uses for TV Licenses too.

So, really it's just about making addressing easier to deal with for everyone who isn't An Post.

I can't see any data protection issues whatsoever as simliar databases of all Irish addresses already exist e.g. Geodirectory

https://www.geodirectory.ie/Products.aspx

I honestly think we need to park the conspiracy theories about this. It's a hugely useful piece of public infrastructure and technology that will absolutely transform logistics in Ireland overnight meaning that you won't be getting 9 phone calls from DHL wondering where your house is and your pizza might actually arrive still hot and if you have a heart attack you might actually get an ambulance assigned to your house via the quickest route and get there on the first attempt too.

For the legal and conveyance profession it could also help to define addresses too for legal documents which is probably a good thing as there are a lot of confusing issues around addresses in Ireland that really shouldn't be an issue at all.
It could really help with the land register !!

234

All of the above seems sensible apart from the conveyancing bit.

Addresses don't define boundaries and the entry in the PRA is still authoritative irrespective of any post-code system.

Cody Pomeray

Paulw wrote: »

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Do An Post have equipment that can automatically read addresses on letters?

An Post sorting has been done by machine now since the late 80s/early 90s.

Really? Does it read type written envelopes only, or your Granny's cursive, or even poorly legible scrawl?

Not a legal issue I know just curious how that could work.

SpaceTime

234 wrote: »

All of the above seems sensible apart from the conveyancing bit.

Addresses don't define boundaries and the entry in the PRA is still authoritative irrespective of any post-code system.

It still makes describing an address a lot easier and you won't have issues where a part of an address has umpteen different spellings etc which is quite common in old documents.

Even on general documents for all sorts of purposes you can end up with 3 or 4 different versions of the same address in some cases. House names suddenly becoming numbers, town lands being changed etc etc.

At least if you've the PRA + postcode it's a bit easier to look up!

SpaceTime

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Really? Does it read type written envelopes only, or your Granny's cursive, or even poorly legible scrawl?

Not a legal issue I know just curious how that could work.

It apparently reads both and where poorly legible scrawl flummoxes it, someone's presented with an image of the front of the envelope where they try to read it manually and key the address details in.

At least it'd have more of a chance of reading just one line of code rather than 4 or 5 lines of scrawl.

I'd say the majority of letters are probably typed labels anyway these days anyway.

hullaballoo

I presume it's the same technology that allows automatic cheque lodgement machines read the scrawled writing on them? It's not 100% accurate at reading handwritten notes but it's close enough for the purpose of identifying necessary aspects.

SpaceTime

I'd assume so but I think it's been around quite a while and probably has a lot more specialised software and powerful computers behind it.

They're pretty expensive pieces of kit I would imagine and quite specialised.

There's a youtube clip on the Royal Mail's system there : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BVHPmGIxBQ

An Post's setup's not too different to that at those big mail centres.

Mykola

Mark my words the first thing these "postcodes" will be used for is the broadcasting charge.

GerardKeating

Condatis wrote: »

Over the past few years signs have been erected at street corners in Dublin suburbs. These signs have a letter and numbers.

Are they part of the new post code system?

the numbers starting with "L" ??

That's the "number" of the road

"N" for Primary Routes
"R" for Regional
"L" for Local

GerardKeating

Paulw wrote: »

Yep, you are missing something. Every individual property will have it's own unique postcode -

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2013/RABBITTE+GETS+GREEN+LIGHT+NEXT+GEN+POSTCODE+BY+2015.htm

Mykola wrote: »

Mark my words the first thing these "postcodes" will be used for is the broadcasting charge.

But most Houses already have a unique code, the electric MNRP, and the Property tax number, they do not need to post code for the Broadcasr charge, they will just stick it on the Propery tax

TheChizler

Mykola wrote: »

Mark my words the first thing these "postcodes" will be used for is the broadcasting charge.

Go on?

trad

Pity it couldn't be done by an Irish Company


Registered office: 71 Victoria Street, Westminster, London SW1H 0XA. Registered in England No. 2081330.

source

Mykola wrote: »

Mark my words the first thing these "postcodes" will be used for is the broadcasting charge.

You've been given many reasons on this thread as to why we believe you're wrong.

Why do you believe what you're saying is right?

TheChizler

It mightn't be quite on the legal topic, but are these codes coordinate based? i.e. are they basically loc8 codes, just government procured => horribly expensive?

SpaceTime

TheChizler wrote: »

It mightn't be quite on the legal topic, but are these codes coordinate based? i.e. are they basically loc8 codes, just government procured => horribly expensive?

Nobody knows yet as they've only announced very basic details of it. All we know is that it's a 7-character alphanumeric code that identifies each house and that the first 3 characters will be the general area.

We also know that it's not going to be language-biased to either English or Irish.

...

This is really straying off a legal topic though

I think most people are agreeing that it's still just an address code so it will not be a data protection issue.

Victor

An Post own GeoDirectory. Essentially the sorting system retains every version of every address that it has ever been presented with and associates them with a code. If it gets an of version of an address, it tries to match it to the code.

Mykola wrote: »

Mark my words the first thing these "postcodes" will be used for is the broadcasting charge.

But An Post already have a database of every address in the country.

Going Forward

Victor wrote: »

But An Post already have a database of every address in the country.

Which indicates that An Post doesn't actually need a "Postcode" system costing E16 million.

Why not let/make them share their own system with with the emergency services and encourage the general public to educate themselves about their own co-ordinates to prevent Joe the taxi or DHL getting lost and save us all E16 million?

Victor

Oh, there is data protection exemptions for the collection of taxes anyway.

I'm not sure if Geodirectory is human friendly - the codes might be quite long.

SpaceTime

Going Forward wrote: »

That would indicate that An Post doesn't actually need a "Postcode" system costing E16 million.

Why not let/make them share their own system with with the emergency services and encourage the general public to educate themselves about their own co-ordinates to prevent Joe the taxi or DHL getting lost?

Because their system doesn't identify every house either. It's completely proprietary internal system and identifies postal workers routes and sorting offices. That's all very useful if you want an ambulance or a pizza delivered to your nearest An Post depot.

It would be about as useful as using your local bank branch code as part of your address !

The last phase of it relies on the postman/woman's local knowledge.

The term "postcode" is a bit of a misleading phrase anyway. It's got a lot more to do with things that aren't post. It's basically unique, coded geographical addressing. It's not really just an aid to mail sorting which is what some of the more primitive systems used on the continent and the US etc are.

July Rain

Does anybody know why millions of Euro is going to be spent on an new system when the loc8 system was offered to the department for free ?

TheChizler

July Rain wrote: »

Does anybody know why millions of Euro is going to be spent on an new system when the loc8 system was offered to the department for free ?

And have some addresses lose the Dublin 4 status, are you mad?!