The Irish: bottom of the class?

Jimmy444

For a country which promotes itself as a good location for foreign investment due in part to our educated workforce, it’s very disappointing to see how poorly we perform compared with our competitors in numeracy and literacy. Of the 23 countries in this survey, we are 4th last in literacy and fifth from the bottom in numeracy.

http://www.oecd-berlin.de/charts/PIAAC/

road_high

Jimmy444 wrote: »

For a country which promotes itself as a good location for foreign investment due in part to our educated workforce, it’s very disappointing to see how poorly we perform compared with our competitors in numeracy and literacy. Of the 23 countries in this survey, we are 4th last in literacy and fifth from the bottom in numeracy.

http://www.oecd-berlin.de/charts/PIAAC/

But not surprising after seeing many dire CV's and cover letters. From people with 3rd level educations I might add.

Manach

This would seem to look at standards in general, and perhaps should focus on the knowledge higher-tech skillsets that are important to overseas investors - anecdotally we hold our own there and well as on the social intelligence soft skills.

ardmacha

But not surprising after seeing many dire CV's and cover letters. From people with 3rd level educations I might add.

He who is without guilt, should throw the first stone.

More seriously, in Ireland for a period we did not expect the Financial Regulator to be numerate, never mind the rest of the population.

road_high

Manach wrote: »

This would seem to look at standards in general, and perhaps should focus on the knowledge higher-tech skillsets that are important to overseas investors - anecdotally we hold our own there and well as on the social intelligence soft skills.

Agree that's one I hadn't thought of and one we didn't place much value you on but it's very important. The Irish broadly are very good at fitting in socially and getting on with people. This can be underestimated in business.

skafish

road_high wrote: »

Agree that's one I hadn't thought of and one we didn't place much value you on but it's very important. The Irish broadly are very good at fitting in socially and getting on with people. This can be underestimated in business.

All true, but you can't expect anybody to succeed in any walk of life (except a few low skilled, low wage roles, and there is another whole thread here on this topic) without basic literacy and numeracy skills.

I realise its not the totality of the problem, but imo, a large part of the mortgage and personal debt issues we are faced with currently stem from people not being able to budget properly. Sorry for drifting off topic.

Jimmy444

I don’t think we can be too complacent about this. Some economists analysing this are noting a correlation between poorly performing European economies and their score in this survey. Literacy and numeracy are seen as the strongest indicators of earning power. It’s great that there are so many finding, or creating for themselves, well-paid high-tech jobs down in the Silicon Docks but the economy needs a large proportion of its workforce to be competitive and reasonably skilled, or else we end up with an increasingly unequal society with a lucky few succeeding and a large group struggling near the poverty line. As time goes on this divide can only get worse.

gaius c

road_high wrote: »

Agree that's one I hadn't thought of and one we didn't place much value you on but it's very important. The Irish broadly are very good at fitting in socially and getting on with people. This can be underestimated in business.

That works if you're in the business of putting tarmac on peoples' driveways. Nowadays a more sophisticated skillset is called for.

Rightwing

Jimmy444 wrote: »

I don’t think we can be too complacent about this. Some economists analysing this are noting a correlation between poorly performing European economies and their score in this survey. Literacy and numeracy are seen as the strongest indicators of earning power. It’s great that there are so many finding, or creating for themselves, well-paid high-tech jobs down in the Silicon Docks but the economy needs a large proportion of its workforce to be competitive and reasonably skilled, or else we end up with an increasingly unequal society with a lucky few succeeding and a large group struggling near the poverty line. As time goes on this divide can only get worse.

There's a massive dumbing down going on at primary school. Seeing the books now compared to when I went to school. Mind the gap.

Frank Lee Midere

Rightwing wrote: »

There's a massive dumbing down going on at primary school. Seeing the books now compared to when I went to school. Mind the gap.

The stats aren't showing that though. Ireland moved up the rankings.

I am fairly dubious about the OECD's methodology here and the pre-selected countries. Nor did they compensate for immigrants who would, in general, never achieve the highest levels.

flintash

mind you. easter europeans math skill well above irish average!

Gloomtastic!

Rightwing wrote: »

There's a massive dumbing down going on at primary school. Seeing the books now compared to when I went to school. Mind the gap.

My kids' primary school has increased numeracy homework this year. They're also increasing class work in maths.

The homework questions are quite diverse and I can see how it's going to benefit the kids in the future, hopefully allowing them to think laterally when confronted with problems.

skafish

Without wanting to seem judgmental or pedantic, a quick look through this, or any other thread, shows a wide variety of mis quotation and mis spelling, as well as numerous grammatical errors.

The OECD may not be too far wrong.

hfallada

If you want to compare PISA scores of the OECD survey. You will see the economic poor house Germany fails miserable for emigrates. First generation emigrates, outperform second generation emigrates and significantly behind native Germans. Therefore it shows even Germany has serious issues with its education system.

One of the reasons why Ireland is dropping in these surveys, is the fact that type of people in classrooms have changed significantly. We have people who traditionally left school are staying longer in the education system dragging the averages down. Also we have more special needs people in the same education system as everyone else.

Our education system needs to be significantly changed. Why does Irish and religion play such an important role at primary level when most students end up doing ordinary level Irish and dont sit a religion exam. Preparation for communion and confirmation should be done outside of school. A lot of my 2nd and 6th year was spent preparing for one day eg the confirmation.

Also rural school with one teacher, teaching 3 different classes at once is ridiculous. We have rural primary schools with less than a hundred in each. But yet they are beside other tiny primary schools. They should be merged, resulting in one teacher, teaching one class. Having gone to a school where the teacher was teaching 3 classes at the same time. I know I didnt learn half as much as I should have. How can you teach the same level of Irish to someone entering secondary school as some entering 4th class? You cant and corners are cut.

Frank Lee Midere

skafish wrote: »

Without wanting to seem judgmental or pedantic, a quick look through this, or any other thread, shows a wide variety of mis quotation and mis spelling, as well as numerous grammatical errors.

The OECD may not be too far wrong.

Are you sure you didn't want to be both judgmental and pedantic?

gaius c

skafish wrote: »

Without wanting to seem judgmental or pedantic, a quick look through this, or any other thread, shows a wide variety of mis quotation and mis spelling, as well as numerous grammatical errors.

The OECD may not be too far wrong.

misspelling

Amirani

skafish wrote: »

Without wanting to seem judgmental or pedantic, a quick look through this, or any other thread, shows a wide variety of mis quotation and mis spelling, as well as numerous grammatical errors.

The OECD may not be too far wrong.

That's hardly a reasonable sample to be using. More and more these days I'm doing my posting from a phone or tablet. Despite being a pretty proficient typist on a physical keyboard, my typing on screens is awful, and generally leads to a lot more errors.

There's also the fact that people are putting to much thought into a forum post and as such it can easily become a bit of a ramble that lacks coherency.

Rightwing

NiallSparky wrote: »

That's hardly a reasonable sample to be using. More and more these days I'm doing my posting from a phone or tablet. Despite being a pretty proficient typist on a physical keyboard, my typing on screens is awful, and generally leads to a lot more errors.

There's also the fact that people are putting to much thought into a forum post and as such it can easily become a bit of a ramble that lacks coherency.

That's a valid point, but the standard of English being used is just awful at times.

Amirani

Rightwing wrote: »

That's a valid point, but the standard of English being used is just awful at times.

Undoubtedly, and it annoys me a huge amount. Still I don't think Ireland is alone in this regard.

Rightwing

NiallSparky wrote: »

Undoubtedly, and it annoys me a huge amount. Still I don't think Ireland is alone in this regard.

No, that's true, the internet is 1 reason, immigration probably another, but that standard of languages will never be as high as it was.

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

No, that's true, the internet is 1 reason, immigration probably another, but that standard of languages will never be as high as it was.

For example...before the internet,this would have been written as "one".

skafish

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Are you sure you didn't want to be both judgmental and pedantic?

Nop. I live in a glass house, and can't afford to throw any stones:D

ODriscoll

Just reading this on the piaac report. I have not studied the report at all, just heard the news. This does throw a different light on the matter.

Jimmy444

ODriscoll wrote: »

Just reading this on the piaac report. I have not studied the report at all, just heard the news. This does throw a different light on the matter.

Seems to be a very strident minority opinion in that link.

Looking around the Web I can find government responses from Canada, the UK, Ireland and Australia. All comment on the findings. None question the validity or methodology, whether their countries did well or badly.

News outlets from the N.Y. Times, The Huffington Post, to the Telegraph and Guardian all likewise comment on the results but don’t question the validity of the survey.

In Ireland the test was administered by the CSO. I’d imagine they have sufficient expertise to critique the methodology of such a survey and would not put their name to it if it was not going to produce valid and useful results. Likewise for the equivalent organisations in other countries.


Maybe more criticism will come to the surface in the next while but for now it seems to be widely accepted as a credible survey.

carpejugulum

Not to worry, literacy and numeracy are fads anyway.
Just wait until others understand that religion and dead languages are more important, and we will soar ... not as we just waste time on those without learning anything.

ardmacha

carpejugulum wrote: »

Not to worry, literacy and numeracy are fads anyway.
Just wait until others understand that religion and dead languages are more important, and we will soar ... not as we just waste time on those without learning anything.

This is typical lazy analysis more concerned with the poster'd prejudices than anything else. If Britain also did poorly and as there has been an obvious decline in standards in Ireland in a generation, then other forces are at work.

Peanut

ardmacha wrote: »

This is typical lazy analysis more concerned with the poster'd prejudices than anything else. If Britain also did poorly and as there has been an obvious decline in standards in Ireland in a generation, then other forces are at work.

Not necessarily - Britain doing poorly doesn't really tell us much about any opportunity costs of the religion and language aspects of Irish education.

They have to have some relevancy - teaching time is a finite resource - although I suspect the problem is more of a cultural one more than anything else.

andrew

Well, we're still the most literate country in the Euro when it comes to speaking English, and that's all that matters. OK, it's not all that matters, but it matters a lot.

skafish

andrew wrote: »

Well, we're still the most literate country in the Euro when it comes to speaking English, and that's all that matters. OK, it's not all that matters, but it matters a lot.

?

andrew

?

As in, even if Irish people are less literate than many of their peers, the fact that English is our first language probably more than makes up for it, given the language of business and government is now English.

professore

andrew wrote: »

Well, we're still the most literate country in the Euro when it comes to speaking English, and that's all that matters. OK, it's not all that matters, but it matters a lot.

A lot of non-english speaking eurozone people I've worked with actually have better English spelling and grammar than native Irish people. They often can also speak one or more European languages other than their own and English.

professore

And another thing, most technical people I work with now seem to be Eastern Europeans. IT related courses are among the lowest points. Not good signs for numeracy at least.