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Who has right of way...?

  • 08-10-2013 09:36AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭


    So this morning coming to work i witnessed a minor bit of "argy bargy" between a cyclist and a taxi. There was a row of cyclists in the cycling lane of Ranelagh Road waiting for a green light to head north across the canal. And also a row of cars to their right also waiting for a green. At the front of the row of cars is a taxi indicating that he wants to turn left. Does he have to wait for the row of cyclists (there were around 10-15 cyclists) to pass by (heading straight on) before he turns left? I (speaking as a cyclist AND a motorist) would have though that yes, he does need to wait. But he was pushing his way on onto the cycling lane, beeping and shouting that he has right of way. The response from the cyclist was a very constructive "f**K off".


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,639 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    you cannot just cross a lane and must always give way until it is clear to enter.
    Taxi clearly in the wrong.

    That said any cyclist who arrives at the lights after the taxi should see him indicating and have the sense and courtesy to wait behind him, allowing to turn once the lights change and the cyclists inside him already clear through.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 851 ✭✭✭TonyStark


    Paulj wrote: »
    So this morning coming to work i witnessed a minor bit of "argy bargy" between a cyclist and a taxi. There was a row of cyclists in the cycling lane of Ranelagh Road waiting for a green light to head north across the canal. And also a row of cars to their right also waiting for a green. At the front of the row of cars is a taxi indicating that he wants to turn left. Does he have to wait for the row of cyclists (there were around 10-15 cyclists) to pass by (heading straight on) before he turns left? I (speaking as a cyclist AND a motorist) would have though that yes, he does need to wait. But he was pushing his way on onto the cycling lane, beeping and shouting that he has right of way. The response from the cyclist was a very constructive "f**K off".

    If it was a row of buses filing by in a bus lane would he go or would he wait...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Ultimately, the cyclist still has right of way.

    While technically a cyclist must not overtake a vehicle on the left if that vehicle is indicating left and will "beat" the cyclist to the turn, that doesn't mean the vehicle has right of way. The cyclist is still in control of the lane and therefore has right of way.

    If you look at it in terms of cars - you have two cars on a dual carriageway in the overtaking lane, and car A moves to overtake car B in the left-hand lane. Car B indicates left in order to take the next sliproad. Does car B have right of way because car A shouldn't be overtaking on the left? No. Before he can change or cross a traffic lane he must yield to all traffic in that lane.

    Same principle applies here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 686 ✭✭✭C-Shore


    My understanding is that the cyclist has right of way and so the Taxi had to wait.

    The reason I believe so, is because of the cycling lane, this gives right of way to the cyclist.

    Where I'm not too sure is if there is no cycling lane, and the cyclist is to the left. I think the cyclist would still have right of way, but I'm not as sure because of the absence of the cycling lane.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 686 ✭✭✭C-Shore


    That said any cyclist who arrives at the lights after the taxi should see him indicating and have the sense and courtesy to wait behind him, allowing to turn once the lights change and the cyclists inside him already clear through.

    This is a good point, common courtesy still applies in instances like this, so it is subjective to the time of the arrival too. A lot of people are just discourteous, and sometimes cyclists are too.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,996 ✭✭✭mitosis


    Taxi must give way to traffic, cyclist or not, that is on his left and proceding straight (or even left), if he wishes to cross their path


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Paulj


    Ok ya, i agree with the above, a point i'm not so sure about is :

    "That said any cyclist who arrives at the lights after the taxi should see him indicating and have the sense and courtesy to wait behind him, allowing to turn once the lights change and the cyclists inside him already clear through."

    While that makes sense in theory, In my experience as a cyclist if i do this, cyclists behind will just overtake at full speed anyway. This can cause a problem, because if one cyclist allows the taxi to turn left, it gives the taxi the impression he is clear to go, but there is actually 10 other cyclists behind that may not allow the taxi to turn left. I've seen this nearly cause accidents before.

    In my opinion, the safest solution is that the cyclist shouldn't give way, and the taxi should wait until the lane is clear.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭NeedMoreGears


    I'm not so sure - I'd have thought the taxi had right of way over those who were behind it when the lights went green. I seem to recall that when the rules regarding filtering on the left were changed that the cyclist couldn't filter past someone who was signalling left when they were about to make a turn. I'm not sure either how this would apply where there is a cycle lane marked on the road as distinct from a location where there isn't one. I'm even less sure as to whether a cycle lane is a "real" lane under the various provisions of the road traffic act.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 271 ✭✭nordicb


    I think cycling lane doesn't give the right over the motorist of the road. The cycling lane is an aid for all road users to separate different types of transport. Think bus lanes. But bus lanes always join the main stream at junctions, or allow other traffic to drive on them by means of road markings. This is not the case with cycling lanes, but in reality it is. In my mind, that road is a single stream, the taxi should've allowed cyclists in front to continue, and cyclists behind the taxi should've let the man turn. Guys in the middle should've used the "right hand" rule. Or respecting other road users would help here too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,318 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    One of my rules is that I will never ever, go up the inside of a vehicle indicating left. Too much potential for a collision.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 686 ✭✭✭C-Shore


    I'm even less sure as to whether a cycle lane is a "real" lane under the various provisions of the road traffic act.

    Yeah I'd love to get clarification on this.

    I was trying to find out a while ago and never really got an answer.
    Is a cycle lane just there to give cyclists a place to be on the road, or is it held with the same importance as a bus lane/any other lane?

    As you said, I can't find anything in the Rules of the Road or Road Traffic Act.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 686 ✭✭✭C-Shore


    Raam wrote: »
    One of my rules is that I will never ever, go up the inside of a vehicle indicating left. Too much potential for a collision.

    Yeah regardless of rules, I'm the same, I'd rather take caution than be knocked down.

    Bit more difficult when you're training with someone who doesn't take the same precautions though! I suppose it makes it easier to get used to chasing back on after being dropped.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,786 ✭✭✭✭Green&Red


    I would think it depends on whether there is a dedicated lane for turning left.

    So two scenarios, one where it is a single lane for both left and straight, the cyclists has the right because the taxi is pulling across their lane.
    The other where there is a dedicated left turn lane, the driver has right of way because the cyclist should have pulled into the lane for straight ahead


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,018 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    From a pragmatic point of view, if I see a car at or very near a junction indicating to turn left, I'm not going to overtake it on the inside, regardless of whether there's a cycle lane. Particularly if it is a junction where there's a lot of the traffic turning left, I'll leave the cycle lane and join the main traffic lane as being on the inside of left turning traffic is not a place I want to be regardless of my right of way. IMHO, sometimes the cycle lanes leave you in a position that is neither safe nor clever, and in those cases, I just don't use them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,869 ✭✭✭billie1b


    mitosis wrote: »
    Taxi must give way to traffic, cyclist or not, that is on his left and proceding straight (or even left), if he wishes to cross their path

    Negative, most cycle lanes in Dublin have a yield sign on each end, it means the cyclist has to yield to the traffic on his or her right if they intend on going straight, if the cyclist and car are turning left both can do so provided there is sufficient space


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,996 ✭✭✭mitosis


    billie1b wrote: »
    Negative, most cycle lanes in Dublin have a yield sign on each end, it means the cyclist has to yield to the traffic on his or her right if they intend on going straight, if the cyclist and car are turning left both can do so provided there is sufficient space

    You missed out an important bit
    if he wishes to cross their path


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    billie1b wrote: »
    Negative, most cycle lanes in Dublin have a yield sign on each end, it means the cyclist has to yield to the traffic on his or her right if they intend on going straight, if the cyclist and car are turning left both can do so provided there is sufficient space
    Only where the cycle lane comes to an end. In this case and most other cases of on-street cycle lanes, the lane is continuous (or it just ends by the road marking disappearing).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭Surveyor11


    billie1b wrote: »
    Negative, most cycle lanes in Dublin have a yield sign on each end, it means the cyclist has to yield to the traffic on his or her right if they intend on going straight, if the cyclist and car are turning left both can do so provided there is sufficient space

    You'll probably find these yield signs are more on cycle lanes that are adjacent to the footpath and above the road. I think the OP is talking about a cycle lane on the road level - I've yet to see a yield sign on one of these but stand to be corrected given the inconsistency and quality of cycle lane markings.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0332.html

    The one about cycle lanes includes this
    (b) A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken—


    (i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle,

    (ii) is stationary for the purposes of permitting a passenger or passengers to alight or board the vehicle, or


    (iii) is stationary for the purposes of loading or unloading.”,

    Therefore the taxi has the right of way over cyclists arriving after his indicating turning left edit: Assuming that he is at the turn and not several car lengths from the turn ( if you see what I mean )


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,869 ✭✭✭billie1b


    Surveyor11 wrote: »
    You'll probably find these yield signs are more on cycle lanes that are adjacent to the footpath and above the road. I think the OP is talking about a cycle lane on the road level - I've yet to see a yield sign on one of these but stand to be corrected given the inconsistency and quality of cycle lane markings.

    I agree with you on the inconsistency of them, but just to clarify all of the ones in my area of Dublin are path mounted but about 10 metres before the junction the move onto the road and have yield signs on them


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Paulj wrote: »
    So this morning coming to work i witnessed a minor bit of "argy bargy" between a cyclist and a taxi. There was a row of cyclists in the cycling lane of Ranelagh Road waiting for a green light to head north across the canal. A.......
    Spook_ie wrote: »
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0332.html

    The one about cycle lanes includes this



    Therefore the taxi has the right of way over cyclists arriving after his indicating turning left

    The traffic was stationary.

    Per your quote the taxi only has right of way if
    has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle,

    In other words if the taxi was a bit ahead of the cyclist, he does not have to wait for him if he can complete the move safely.

    Anyway the taxi has right of way - he is professional driver and this is how he earns his living - plus all the road tax he pays, and if it was wasn't for those Anglo feckers and the immigrants there wouldn't be as many cyclists on the road in the first place, wha?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 496 ✭✭bette


    Taxi and courtesy in the same sentence. The irony!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Therefore the taxi has the right of way over cyclists arriving after his indicating turning left edit: Assuming that he is at the turn and not several car lengths from the turn ( if you see what I mean )
    I can see how it would be confusing, but that piece of the law doesn't say that the vehicle in front has right of way, simply states what the pedal cyclist may not do.

    It's a subtle difference, but "may not overtake" is not the same as "does not have right of way while overtaking".

    As I illustrate in my post above, just because one vehicle is performing an illegal manouver, does not immediately mean that other vehicles automatically have right-of-way over him. Otherwise a vehicle breaking the speed limit would forfeit all right of way.

    Another example. Two cars driving on a single lane road, solid white line. The car behind (car A) pulls out to overtake. During the overtake, car B indicates right, then slows down and turns. Collision. Who had right of way? Car A did, even though he was overtaking illegally.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 686 ✭✭✭C-Shore


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0332.html

    The one about cycle lanes includes this



    Therefore the taxi has the right of way over cyclists arriving after his indicating turning left edit: Assuming that he is at the turn and not several car lengths from the turn ( if you see what I mean )

    Ok so from this it seems to that the Taxi had right of way, that's quite interesting as this was my understanding a few months ago until a lot of my friends shouted me down to say that the cyclist had right of way. Thanks for posting the link to that, I've bookmarked it.
    Jawgap wrote: »
    The traffic was stationary.

    Per your quote the taxi only has right of way if



    In other words if the taxi was a bit ahead of the cyclist, he does not have to wait for him if he can complete the move safely.

    Anyway the taxi has right of way - he is professional driver and this is how he earns his living - plus all the road tax he pays, and if it was wasn't for those Anglo feckers and the immigrants there wouldn't be as many cyclists on the road in the first place, wha?

    Ha when I got the email to notify me of the reply I was dreading reading this because I only got the first half of the post, but it made me laugh when I read to the end, thanks!

    I'm now a bit confused though, do you reckon that the taxi wasn't able to do it safely?
    Might the safety be down to the cyclist complying with the right of way as well, knowing the taxi/car has reasonable expectation to turn left with right of way?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭Lusk_Doyle


    Raam wrote: »
    One of my rules is that I will never ever, go up the inside of a vehicle indicating left. Too much potential for a collision.

    Complete no-brainer for most folk with any semblance of sense. Some clown undertook me once on the canal as I was turning left to go over the bridge. He was so so close to creaming the left of the car but for i had seem him coming in the wing mirror and just knew that he wasn't going to stop. I stopped and beeped. He gave me the finger. Total tool. Hipster too, he was with no helmet.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 851 ✭✭✭TonyStark


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0332.html

    The one about cycle lanes includes this



    Therefore the taxi has the right of way over cyclists arriving after his indicating turning left edit: Assuming that he is at the turn and not several car lengths from the turn ( if you see what I mean )

    But the cyclists are in a cycle lane are continuing with their right of way in a designated lane. Unless there is designation to yield they should continue on. They are not in the same traffic lane as the Taxi they are in their own designated cycle lane and are not technically overtaking.

    I don't see anything in the SI that gives motor vehicles the right to occupy cycle lanes in general. In this instance it would seem that he needs to cross one to complete his maneuver so therefore he needs to sit and wait momentarily for the it to become free.

    With buslanes the problem is solved as traffic can filter into the lane near junctions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 686 ✭✭✭C-Shore


    seamus wrote: »
    I can see how it would be confusing, but that piece of the law doesn't say that the vehicle in front has right of way, simply states what the pedal cyclist may not do.

    It's a subtle difference, but "may not overtake" is not the same as "does not have right of way while overtaking".

    As I illustrate in my post above, just because one vehicle is performing an illegal manouver, does not immediately mean that other vehicles automatically have right-of-way over him. Otherwise a vehicle breaking the speed limit would forfeit all right of way.

    Another example. Two cars driving on a single lane road, solid white line. The car behind (car A) pulls out to overtake. During the overtake, car B indicates right, then slows down and turns. Collision. Who had right of way? Car A did, even though he was overtaking illegally.


    That also makes sense, I'm so confused :(

    I'm now back to an understanding that the cyclist has right of way to go straight and the taxi must wait.

    But if you interpret the law, it also says that since the taxi has indicated to go left, if it has indicated since before the cyclist arrived at the lights, then the cyclist should not overtake on the left?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    seamus wrote: »
    I can see how it would be confusing, but that piece of the law doesn't say that the vehicle in front has right of way, simply states what the pedal cyclist may not do.

    It's a subtle difference, but "may not overtake" is not the same as "does not have right of way while overtaking".

    As I illustrate in my post above, just because one vehicle is performing an illegal manouver, does not immediately mean that other vehicles automatically have right-of-way over him. Otherwise a vehicle breaking the speed limit would forfeit all right of way.

    Another example. Two cars driving on a single lane road, solid white line. The car behind (car A) pulls out to overtake. During the overtake, car B indicates right, then slows down and turns. Collision. Who had right of way? Car A did, even though he was overtaking illegally.

    Interesting thought but I suspect as regards vehicles speeding if it can be proven then they do indeed forfeit the right of way, that is why police accident investigators mark points of interest to guestimate speed and prosecute on evidence available "after the fact" also that in your example of the solid white line the driver on the wrong side of the road would face charges for driving without due care and consideration and failing to heed road markings, I doubt that the driver being over taken would face any charges.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Interesting thought but I suspect as regards vehicles speeding if it can be proven then they do indeed forfeit the right of way, that is why police accident investigators mark points of interest to guestimate speed and prosecute on evidence available "after the fact" also that in your example of the solid white line the driver on the wrong side of the road would face charges for driving without due care and consideration and failing to heed road markings, I doubt that the driver being over taken would face any charges.
    The driver being overtaken would be guilty of failing to drive with with due care or attention. Arguably a far more serious charge than failure to obey road markings. :)

    Road accidents in Ireland don't operate on a strictly "who made the first wrong" basis. The behaviour of all vehicles is taken into consideration, as each road user is expected to be paying enough attention that they don't get caught out by the illegal/stupid actions of others. "He did something I didn't expect him to do", is the quickest way to get yourself convicted of dangerous driving.

    Also remember that road traffic law is framed in such a way as it expects everyone to drive defensively, not offensively. Pushing your way through moving traffic (even if you have right of way), breaches the overriding principle which requires you to drive in such a way that you do not put yourself or anyone else at risk.
    But if you interpret the law, it also says that since the taxi has indicated to go left, if it has indicated since before the cyclist arrived at the lights, then the cyclist should not overtake on the left?
    Correct. But as the taxi is turning (and in this case is crossing a lane), is obliged to yield to all traffic in that lane.

    Who would be wrong in court? Everyone, probably.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    TonyStark wrote: »
    But the cyclists are in a cycle lane are continuing with their right of way in a designated lane. Unless there is designation to yield they should continue on. They are not in the same traffic lane as the Taxi they are in their own designated cycle lane and are not technically overtaking.

    I don't see anything in the SI that gives motor vehicles the right to occupy cycle lanes in general. In this instance it would seem that he needs to cross one to complete his maneuver so therefore he needs to sit and wait momentarily for the it to become free.

    With buslanes the problem is solved as traffic can filter into the lane near junctions.

    The only time a cycle lane is mandatory cyclists only is when it is a solid white line and requisite signage, if it is a broken white line then it is a shared lane and a vehicle is allowed to use that portion of the road

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=86551671&postcount=14


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