Our own worst enemy

Jabel

We cyclists really are our own worst enemy when it comes to the perception of other road users about us. This may be a sweeping statement but I'll make it anyway, we display little road manners and courtesy towards other road users and more worryingly our fellow cyclists. Im not going to list every misdemeanor here but you all know what they are and find myself on a daily basis shaking my head in disbelief at the behaviour of fellow cyclists. With more and more people cycling the problems may get even worse. Does anyone think a 'cyclists charter' where a few basic guidelines are signed up to upon a bike purchase is a worthwhile initiative? Or is that a fanciful notion?

PS To the guy in sky blue shorts who hurtled dangerously through the red lights at the crossroads at Ballyroan in Dublin this morning, you sir will meet your maker if you continue that sort of ****e

Lumen

There is no fellowship of cyclists; I refuse to be associated with/held accountable for anyone else's mistakes/incompetence just because I happen to use a similar mode of transport.

youtheman

My Father used to have a great saying. Don't know the exact words but the gist of it was :

"It's good to have a backdrop full or ar5eholes so that it makes the rest of us look good".

petethedrummer

Lumen wrote: »

There is no fellowship of cyclists; I refuse to be associated with/held accountable for anyone else's mistakes/incompetence just because I happen to use a similar mode of transport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIxz5uOGB2k

jimgoose

Umm, hello! Motorist here, don't want to be bothering anyone, but please have a care for yourselves out there. The average cyclist terrifies me, with the lack of awareness they show for what's going on around them. And these here red light things - they apply to you too*, what do some cyclists think is protecting them as they pedal merrily through with wild abandon?? Ride safe, kids. :cool:

* Goose acknowledges that "bcmf" below is hereby excluded from this Sweeping Statement, as he is a notorious upholder of red lights.

bcmf

please don't associate me with those cyclists so I am asking you to withdraw your general sweeping statement.
On a journey to the South City this morn with detones we stopped at every light that we needed and put no body in danger.
Yes there are those who seem to think the red traffic light doesn't apply to them but I am not one of them so don't include me in your sweeping statement.

daragh_

jimgoose wrote: »

pedal merrily through with wild abandon??

Is it possible to do both at the same time?

Also, is it Friday?

Skrynesaver

jimgoose wrote: »

Umm, hello! Motorist here, don't want to be bothering anyone, but please have a care for yourselves out there. The average cyclist terrifies me, with the lack of awareness they show for what's going on around them. And these here red light things - they apply to you too, what do some cyclists think is protecting them as they pedal merrily through with wild abandon?? Ride safe, kids. :cool:

Cyclist here, Jim, I hold you personally responsible for all speeding, light jumping, lane skipping, indicator averse, mirror shy half-wits in under-maintained cars...

Of course I don',t that would be a monstrous category error and someone who can use the beautiful language wouldn't do such a thing.

print "Good ",qw(night morning afternoon evening)[(localtime)[2]/6]," Jim goose."

jimgoose

bcmf wrote: »

please don't associate me with those cyclists so I am asking you to withdraw your general sweeping statement.
On a journey to the South City this morn with detones we stopped at every light that we needed and put no body in danger.
Yes there are those who seem to think the red traffic light doesn't apply to them but I am not one of them so don't include me in your sweeping statement.

Done.

jimgoose

Skrynesaver wrote: »

Cyclist here, Jim, I hold you personally responsible for all speeding, light jumping, lane skipping, indicator averse, mirror shy half-wits in under-maintained cars...

Of course I don',t that would be a monstrous category error and someone who can use the beautiful language wouldn't do such a thing.

print "Good ",qw(night morning afternoon evening)[(localtime)[2]/6]," Jim goose."

I'm not holding anyone personally responsible for anything. I just like to see everyone using the road safely and productively.

Hmmzis

Skrynesaver wrote: »

Cyclist here, Jim, I hold you personally responsible for all speeding, light jumping, lane skipping, indicator averse, mirror shy half-wits in under-maintained cars...

... people maiming, people killing, drunk driving... (the list could go on)

Ain't it a tad early in the week for a Friday thread?

bogmanfan

I don't get why cyclists go all defensive as soon as somebody criticises one of us. The fact is, the general standard of cycling is terrible.

I cycled home in the dark last week, and passed lots of cyclists with no lights, dark clothes and headphones in. I saw a girl go straight through the red light at Doyle's Corner, causing a car to brake hard. She probably never heard it though, she had a huge pair of Beats headphones on. There was another girl who decided to undertake a bus which was clearly indicating left. All this just last week.

I'm not suggesting that all cyclists do this, or that anyone on here does these things. And of course there are terrible drivers, and terrible pedestrians out there. But speaking as a cyclist who commutes through the city centre, the worst road users by far are cyclists.

Rogue-Trooper

Jabel wrote: »

We cyclists really are our own worst enemy when it comes to the perception of other road users about us.

I beg to differ. I think there are 'a number' of cyclists that consistently flout the law (and common sense) thereby becoming 'their (and our) own worst enemy', however I do not count myself amongst them.

While I don't hold myself up as any paragon of virtue, I do abide by the ROTR. I stop at red lights, I don't cycle on the footpath, I observe correct lane discipline and acknowledge cars that let me in, etc, etc.

I do my bit and that's all I can do. I join you in the silent head-shaking though. Most of these twats are shortlisted for a Darwin award.

Potatoeman

I wouldnt hold my breath. People generally are terrible road users. Everyday I see some stupid thing. Cyclists going through red lights, motorists not indicating or pedestrians stepping onto the road. The indicating thing seems to have gotten way worse though.

jimgoose

Potatoeman wrote: »

...The indicating thing seems to have gotten way worse though.

It certainly has. Every day I am gobsmacked anew. I'd also like to see more cyclists using hand-signals, and not the rude ones!

Dermot Illogical

We motorists really are our own worst enemy when it comes to the perception of other road users about us. This may be a sweeping statement but I'll make it anyway, we display little road manners and courtesy towards other road users and more worryingly our fellow motorists. Im not going to list every misdemeanor here but you all know what they are and find myself on a daily basis shaking my head in disbelief at the behaviour of fellow motorists. With more and more people driving the problems may get even worse. Does anyone think a 'motorists charter' where a few basic guidelines are signed up to upon a car purchase is a worthwhile initiative? Or is that a fanciful notion?

jimgoose

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

...Does anyone think a 'motorists charter' where a few basic guidelines are signed up to upon a car purchase is a worthwhile initiative? Or is that a fanciful notion?

You mean like the Road Traffic Act?

AstraMonti

An idiot with a bike is still an idiot.
An idiot with a car is still an idiot.
An idiot with a skate is still an idiot.
An idiot with a hot balloon is still an idiot.
An idiot with a zeppelin is still an idiot.
etc etc..

So if you are an irresponsible idiot, it doesn't matter what you are on, you'll still be an idiot. The question here is, are most idiots on a bike, a car, a skate, a hot balloon or a zeppelin? Statistically speaking and just going by numbers, it has to be the idiot with cars.

Edit: I am having deja vu's, I think we already had this conversation like 20 times before.

hardCopy

I walked out in front of a car yesterday, I was lucky I wasn't hit.

Based on this, I can apparently conclude that pedestrians are idiots.

Peterx

pedestrians who step out in front of cars are idiots.

AltAccount

Jabel wrote: »

We cyclists really are our own worst enemy when it comes to the perception of other road users about us. This may be a sweeping statement but I'll make it anyway, we display little road manners and courtesy towards other road users and more worryingly our fellow cyclists. Im not going to list every misdemeanor here but you all know what they are and find myself on a daily basis shaking my head in disbelief at the behaviour of fellow cyclists.

Very few, if any, of those accusations apply to me.

The only conclusion I can draw is that, if I'm not my own worst enemy, someone else must be, and it seems they ride a bike with poor road manners.

I'm looking for you, you jerk (and your ill-mannered bike). I'll get you before you get me!

Chips Lovell

A staggering proportion of cyclists are ignorant f**kheads who can't ride their bikes in a competent or considerate fashion.

Said ignorant f**kheads are unlikely to care enough about cycling to frequent this forum, so pleas to them to consider our collective reputation are likely to be in vain.

Paddigol

Red-Light breaking cyclists. Wearing all their safety gear and luminous jackets. Who just breeze through busy junctions (think N11, various crossroads - Stillorgan, Foxrock etc.). Who don't even appear to be in a rush. My ABSOLUTE pet peeve.

I encountered one guy recently who broke a red light in busy rush hour traffic around Donnybrook Church. Just sailed straight through it. And then when I met him again a few minutes later at Baggot Street Bridge, he bollicked some pedestrian out of it for trying to dash across just as the lights turned green. I couldn't believe what I had just witnessed.

I don't know why, but they really get to me. It's probably my fault. They're not harming/ slighting me. It's nothing personal - they're not out to nark me off. Their business is not really my business. They're all grown adults. So what if they get a bit further down the road from me, or into town ahead of me? So what if I bust my balls against a headwind to make time, only for them to cruise by me as I wait at a set of lights?

It must be the cycling equivalent of road rage for me. I think it's partly the fact that cyclists tend to get all defensive as soon as this topic is mentioned. As though we are somehow different from every other road user in how they treat others. When in reality, based on my own commuting experiences, I would say that red light breaking by cyclists is common place. A minority use hand signals. I'd welcome a common-sense crack down by Gardai. Forget about giving other cyclists a bad name - that's almost irrelevant, but it's a genuinely dangerous practice.

There really are some prize clowns out there, but as someone above said, an idiot is an idiot no matter what mode of transport they are using. I do believe that.

Dermot Illogical

jimgoose wrote: »

You mean like the Road Traffic Act?

That applies to cyclists as well, or at least it's supposed to.

LaGlisse

The amount of Cyclists out training at dusk on main regional roads with no reflective gear of flashing lights on their bike terrifies me. How can they not realise they are practically invisible? A good few of them must drive themselves too? Extra bonus points for the ones dressed head to toe in black

petethedrummer

I hate everyone equally.

eeeee

Potatoeman wrote: »

I wouldnt hold my breath. People generally are terrible road users. Everyday I see some stupid thing. Cyclists going through red lights, motorists not indicating or pedestrians stepping onto the road. The indicating thing seems to have gotten way worse though.

Absolutely.

The indicating is definitely getting worse. It's like they're afraid to wear it out. :rolleyes: (I have an aunt that used to do just that! :eek: )

Surveyor11

I think we've established on this forum and others that the "cyclist - motorist" argument is circular and a waste of time - those at the extreme end of each camp can be equally entrenched - but the majority of each generally use the road in a responsible and law abiding fashion.

What's at play here is a wider societal issue here with obeying rules - let's face it, we're Europeans but not in the Dutch / German law abiding sense (I lived in Germany and can remember my fellow pedestrians recoiling in horror when I crossed a road with a Tram track in the middle - yes, it was a red man, but it was Sunday - and I could see a clear 300m either way).

Last Thursday I witnessed perhapss 12 - 15 cars breaking red lights on the Ballyowen Road in Lucan - one or two cyclists might have pulled the same stunt on the same stretch of road. I've seen cars driving in fog with their lights off, or driving in rain / at dusk unlit. I've seen cyclists do the same. I've seen cyclists almost milled out of it (me included) by careless and aggressive driving - and yes, cars as well almost being hit by idiots changing lanes without indicating.

But one way in which we can be our own worst enemy is to cycle around with some sort of notion that you will always be safe from other road users - always expect the unexpected. Prams will appear out of nowhere in the cycle lane, joggers will come against you in the cycling lane, cars will gladly cut in in front of you turning left. It's all part of the fun.....

Mugser

I remember when I was a young teenager my da giving my older brother a driving lesson round a nearby car-park with me in the back (cos I wanted a go too:p) One piece of advice my father gave to my brother which I'll never forget and will pass on to my own kids when they come to driving (or indeed cycling on the roads) age is as follows:

"EVERYONE ELSE ON THE ROAD IS AN FOOL!!!"

You have absolutely no control over their actions no matter how you use the road be it motorist, cyclist or pedestrian so be constantly aware!

hullaballoo

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

A staggering proportion of cyclists are ignorant f**kheads who can't ride their bikes in a competent or considerate fashion.

Said ignorant f**kheads are unlikely to care enough about cycling to frequent this forum, so pleas to them to consider our collective reputation are likely to be in vain.

The exact same can be said about motorists, in fairness.

I drive to/from Dublin city centre to Blackrock every day, usually along the coast road. I've yet to make the trip without thinking, "I cannot believe that [insert road user] just did that."

As for the proportion of idiots, it's hard to tell because you tend not to notice the people who aren't doing anything stupid/dangerous/suicidal.

Lawr

hullaballoo wrote: »

it's hard to tell because you tend not to notice the people who aren't doing anything stupid/dangerous/suicidal.

Actually, it is the opposite that is true, I think. I find that I am more frequently impressed by the increasing number of people who understand what a safe pass is, the importance of signalling that pass so that vehicles behind them get plenty of notice that there is a cyclist ahead, that give plenty of notice to cyclists that they are about to make a turn. Some of those RSA commercials are having an effect, I think.

Having said that, I recall a recent report in the papers that there was statistical evidence that there is an increase in speeding. I would have guessed that was the case, but I never perceived the speed had come down at all in the first place. People just seem to put their pedal to the metal no matter where they are, in neighbourhoods or on the motorways, it does seem to matter.

To Peterx: pedestrians who step out in front of moving vehicles are not idiots, but they are behaving like idiots. Tragedy is when a pedestrian behaves like an idiot in close proximity to a driver who behaves in an equally idiotic manner.

To Petethedrummer: There is something to be said for discrimination. People who hate everyone equally seem to presume some higher moral ground because they don't discriminate, which is taken to be a bad thing. Discrimination requires evaluation, our highest level of cognition. Creation would not be possible without attaining to this highest level of critical thinking. If you want a higher moral ground, try establishing a set of criteria that justifies your pervasive hatred and the equality of its distribution, one that supports the righteousness of your arrogance. At least, if we can't show the weakness of your defence, we have to assume that you must be onto something.

Dermot Illogical

Lawr wrote: »

If you want a higher moral ground, try establishing a set of criteria that justifies your pervasive hatred and the equality of its distribution, one that supports the righteousness of your arrogance. At least, if we can't show the weakness of your defence, we have to assume that you must be onto something.

I suspect the equal distribution is no more.

Big Eejit

My suspicion is that the idiot we all see on a bike will sooner or later graduate to the idiot we all see in the car, you know, the one that doesn't indicate etc; i.e. If they haven't moved on to the next world before that happens.

AstraMonti wrote: »

An idiot with a bike is still an idiot.
An idiot with a car is still an idiot.
An idiot with a skate is still an idiot.
An idiot with a hot balloon is still an idiot.
An idiot with a zeppelin is still an idiot.
etc etc..

So if you are an irresponsible idiot, it doesn't matter what you are on, you'll still be an idiot. The question here is, are most idiots on a bike, a car, a skate, a hot balloon or a zeppelin? Statistically speaking and just going by numbers, it has to be the idiot with cars.

Edit: I am having deja vu's, I think we already had this conversation like 20 times before.

Dermot Illogical

Big Eejit wrote: »

My suspicion is that the idiot we all see on a bike will sooner or later graduate to the idiot we all see in the car, you know, the one that doesn't indicate etc;

So a bike is a stepping stone for those who don't yet have cars?

AstraMonti

Why do you assume someone first cycles and then drives? It's the adults that they are having the crappy behaviour, not kids.

jimgoose

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

So a bike is a stepping stone for those who don't yet have cars?

Mr. James May has already set out the two reasons that exist for using a bicycle!

derealbadger

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

So a bike is a stepping stone for those who don't yet have cars?

Yes cycling a bike is like taking cannabis its is a gateway to harder drugs or in road terms to becoming an idiot

Big Eejit

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

So a bike is a stepping stone for those who don't yet have cars?

Not at all! My experience has been that there's a certain youthful sort that tend to break the rules, unwittingly or otherwise - I don't see many aul' fellas or aul' wans on bikes.

(IMO) People who follow the rules on a bike most likely learnt it the hard way.

For the record, I have several bikes, I do drive (if I absolutely have to - I don't enjoy the driving experience), but I've no car (and I understand the argument you proffer ).

Big Eejit

gadetra wrote: »

Absolutely.

The indicating is definitely getting worse. It's like they're afraid to wear it out. :rolleyes: (I have an aunt that used to do just that! :eek: )

They'll wear the bulbs out or worse still, the battery!

flatface

Surveyor11 wrote: »

I think we've established on this forum and others that the "cyclist - motorist" argument is circular and a waste of time

Although these threads are circular I would argue that they are not a complete waste of time.
When I started reading this forum many moons ago I was firmly on the red lights are not for me side. The arguments presented here did change my mind and many posts with good info have refined my cycling behaviour and attitude over the years.

NeedMoreGears

I wonder does the behavior of the idiot cyclists have an adverse impact on the rest of us angels* ?

Does it result in more aggressive behavior by other road users that results in injuries etc or does it remain in the "pain in the a$$" category?

I don't associate myself with these gob$hites and they don't really affect me directly but I'd be curious if there were any indirect effects through the modification of other road users behavior.



*ok maybe not angels 100% of the time but generally safe and sensible.

Captain Havoc

I hate this grouping thing, people moaning here because a cyclist didn't wave back or whatever. I don't want to be associated with every half-wit who rides a bicycle, I ride my bike in a responsible manner, obeying lights and signs etc.........

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

On the way to eastpoint the other day some idiot kept overtaking me at the lights, like going through red lights to get ahead of me. As he was slower than me I had to overtake him. If you cycle near Dublin port on the way to Eastpoint you know how dangerous it can be with the trucks and what not. The third time he did it I asked him what's he playing at. "Sure there's no point stopping when there's no cars. Can you not understand"...??? WTF?

He didn't get that I had to overtake him every time he went through a red light.

It's the same when people are stopped. I just overtook you, why do you feel the need to creep ahead of me at the red light? You're only getting in my way and on my nerves.

Wishbone Ash

Colten Dirty Pub wrote: »

It's the same when people are stopped. I just overtook you, why do you feel the need to creep ahead of me at the red light? You're only getting in my way and on my nerves.

I'm sure motorists feel the same - we filter to the top of the queue - lights change to green, motorist has to pass us - redlight ahead - we filter to the front again, motorist has to pass again etc.....

Spook_ie

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

We motorists really are our own worst enemy when it comes to the perception of other road users about us. This may be a sweeping statement but I'll make it anyway, we display little road manners and courtesy towards other road users and more worryingly our fellow motorists. Im not going to list every misdemeanor here but you all know what they are and find myself on a daily basis shaking my head in disbelief at the behaviour of fellow motorists. With more and more people driving the problems may get even worse. Does anyone think a 'motorists charter' where a few basic guidelines are signed up to upon a car purchase is a worthwhile initiative? Or is that a fanciful notion?

You mean like having a license that can be withdrawn from you?

Dermot Illogical

Spook_ie wrote: »

You mean like having a license that can be withdrawn from you?

Yeah. I have one of them.
What's your point?

Spook_ie

Jabel wrote: »

We cyclists really are our own worst enemy when it comes to the perception of other road users about us. This may be a sweeping statement but I'll make it anyway, we display little road manners and courtesy towards other road users and more worryingly our fellow cyclists. Im not going to list every misdemeanor here but you all know what they are and find myself on a daily basis shaking my head in disbelief at the behaviour of fellow cyclists. With more and more people cycling the problems may get even worse. Does anyone think a 'cyclists charter' where a few basic guidelines are signed up to upon a bike purchase is a worthwhile initiative? Or is that a fanciful notion?

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

We motorists really are our own worst enemy when it comes to the perception of other road users about us. This may be a sweeping statement but I'll make it anyway, we display little road manners and courtesy towards other road users and more worryingly our fellow motorists. Im not going to list every misdemeanor here but you all know what they are and find myself on a daily basis shaking my head in disbelief at the behaviour of fellow motorists. With more and more people driving the problems may get even worse. Does anyone think a 'motorists charter' where a few basic guidelines are signed up to upon a car purchase is a worthwhile initiative? Or is that a fanciful notion?

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

Yeah. I have one of them.
What's your point?

My point being the facetious nature of your changing someones post, where as drivers would normally have a license that can be withdrawn for "anti social" behavior and law breaking and cyclists don't, your original point in changing someones post being what?

dogsears

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I hate this grouping thing, people moaning here because a cyclist didn't wave back or whatever. I don't want to be associated with every half-wit who rides a bicycle, I ride my bike in a responsible manner, obeying lights and signs etc.........

But you are and will continue to be associated with them because you are, like others, who may ride stupidly, on a bike. You see it here all the time - " I hate it when cyclists etc....". Society in general is like that. Maybe there's a comfort of sorts in identifying behaviour that perhaps ought not be applauded and finding a way to ascribe it to "others" without discriminating between the members of the class of others. I don't think that will ever change. I don't think you can influence it by your behaviour on the road, I think you can only influence it one by one in the people you speak to.



Or were you just prolonging the circular argument by lobbing out a couple of standard bones of contention, in a way I totally missed?

ThisRegard

We're all aware of how evil the cyclists are that ride roughshod over all senses and sensibility, but reading some of the hyperbole on this thread, and all threads like it, I can only come to the conclusion that the media are covering up all the deaths they cause, and deaths they bring upon themselves, day in day out.

GoTilUBlow

My favourite type of Dublin cyclist is the Goth/Knight Rider. Can be seen on dark nights in a long black flailing coat wearing black boots, jeans and long black hair on an black bike. Seen, if you have infra red glasses that is. No lights of course. While they are mild mannered and law abiding, they truly are a danger to themselves. Only comes out in hours of darkness. Other cyclist have been known to ram them from behind as 'they didn't see them guvnah'.

tomasrojo

GoTilUBlow wrote: »

My favourite type of Dublin cyclist is the Goth/Knight Rider. Can be seen on dark nights in a long black flailing coat wearing black boots, jeans and long black hair on an black bike. Seen, if you have infra red glasses that is. No lights of course. While they are mild mannered and law abiding, they truly are a danger to themselves. Only comes out in hours of darkness. Other cyclist have been known to ram them from behind as 'they didn't see them guvnah'.

I don't think cyclists run into other cyclists from behind in cities for reasons of inconspicuity very often, unless they're coming round a bend on an off-road cycle track or something like that.

People should use decent lights, of course, but I don't think there's a spate of cyclist-cyclist collisions because of charismatic devil-may-care Johnny Cashes on bikes.