So, IF motor tax was put on fuel, how much would it add to a litre?

mullingar

After stumbling on this article on the independent.ie giving out that only 1/4 of all motor tax is invested back into roads, it highlighted the income of all motor taxes/fuels

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/state-takes-over-4bn-from-motorists-but-roads-still-rubbish-29633253.html

Curious with all the bantered figures going around of adding 10c to 30+c tax to the price of fuel, I decided to work it out for myself when you include a REASONABLE yearly tax charge

I know this subject has been half killed in many threads, but none that I read had any solid figures

Petrol:
formula: (petrol + 0.58771(duty)+any mark ups)x1.23vat = ~€1.60 /litre.
Assuming any mark-ups add 10c/litre, this works out to be a raw import price of 0.613c/litre, with a tax & duty take of 0.877c/litre

With a tax/duty take of €978.1m on petrol.
€978.1/0.887= a consumption of 1.1billion litres of petrol


Diesel:
formula: (Diesel + 0.47902(duty)+any mark ups)x1.23vat = ~€1.50 /litre.
Assuming any mark-ups add 10c/litre, this works out to be a raw import price of 0.640c/litre, with a tax & duty take of 0.760c/litre

With a tax/duty take of €1202m on ROAD diesel.
€1202/0.760 = a consumption of 1.58billion litres diesel


If every car was taxed @ say €200, €200x1.88m cars = €376m
If every commercial was taxed @ say €500, €500x0.31m commercials = €155m
Total: 531m

To make up the shortfall on the motor tax which was €1054m, the difference is €523m needs to be added to the fuel.

€523m/2.68 billion litres fuel = 0.195c/litre.

But as we all know with this highly progressive government, this unfortunately will NEVER happen

seamus

Bit harsh on the commercials. I'd be inclined to scrap tax altogether.

Stick 50c per litre of petrol = €550m
40c per litre of diesel = €632m
Total = €1182m

That's gives a 10-15% buffer as fuel consumption will drop considerably if you switch to a PAYG model.

TBi

Don't forget all the savings from not having to pay people to work at all the motor tax offices around the country. That's probably the main reason they won't get rid of it, too many people would be ousted out onto the dole.

Supergurrier

I reckon about 20c per litre before you take into account the savings of a paperless passive and more truly accurate and self correcting system.

So maybe 15c per litre plus whatever rebate is to be applied to vat registered diesel users and people availing of any vat back scheme for disability or the like.

Plus it would be the ultimate enviormentally friendly system as people would avoid unnessesary journies

mullingar

seamus wrote: »

I'd be inclined to scrap tax altogether.

Well, €1054m/2.68 billion litres fuel = 0.393c/litre to maintain the same revenue income. Thats a big jump in price, probably too much for border areas

hidinginthebush

TBi wrote: »

Don't forget all the savings from not having to pay people to work at all the motor tax offices around the country. That's probably the main reason they won't get rid of it, too many people would be ousted out onto the dole.

I think you're right there. Rather than the large payment I'd much rather get stung for a few extra cent on the litre. However I think it'd be a bad idea to go sticking more people onto the doll queue in the current climate.

September1

They could stop subsidy for diesel and make it taxed at same level as petrol, or maybe even more at it has more energy in liter and often VAT gets deducted.

CiniO

mullingar wrote: »

Well, €1054m/2.68 billion litres fuel = 0.393c/litre to maintain the same revenue income. Thats a big jump in price, probably too much for border areas

It definitely wouldn't be worth for me.

I drive about 30k kilometres a year in my car, but only 20k out of it in Ireland.
But even though, at average 5.8l/100km, 20k km is 1160 litres, so at 0.393c/l it would add 456 euro. My tax is 280, so I would pay 176 euro more if tax was on fuel.

Other car in my family does about 12k km per year. Average consumption 6.8l/100km. So it would cost extra 320 euro on fuel. While I pay 303 euro on motortax on this car.

So I'm against tax on fuel at the moment.

dantastic

And how long would it take before a new road tax of sorts would be added once we forgot that the tax was on the fuel already?

jimgoose

It would chop my tax by more than half. Bring it on!

Tabnabs

TBi wrote: »

Don't forget all the savings from not having to pay people to work at all the motor tax offices around the country. That's probably the main reason they won't get rid of it, too many people would be ousted out onto the dole.

Actually, they'd be grand. They would just be handed an envelope marked 'Redeployment'.

bazz26

TBi wrote: »

Don't forget all the savings from not having to pay people to work at all the motor tax offices around the country. That's probably the main reason they won't get rid of it, too many people would be ousted out onto the dole.

Thing is that they will just be reassigned to other departments so no savings there.

Stheno

bazz26 wrote: »

Thing is that they will just be reassigned to other departments so no savings there.

At least they might process driving licences a bit quicker!

TBi

In New Zealand both tax and third party insurance are included when you buy petrol. So no untaxed/uninsured drivers on the road ever. Plus the cost of petrol is cheaper than here (when you do a currency conversion).

What a fantastic system!

bazz26

Stheno wrote: »

At least they might process driving licences a bit quicker!

Already being looked at:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057054140

bigroad

TBi wrote: »

In New Zealand both tax and third party insurance are included when you buy petrol. So no untaxed/uninsured drivers on the road ever. Plus the cost of petrol is cheaper than here (when you do a currency conversion).

What a fantastic system!

Yes it is ,but we have the 6 counties ,for that reason alone they wont do it.Or what they might try and put all cars on the 2008 system and up the tax rates.

colm_mcm

TBi wrote: »

Don't forget all the savings from not having to pay people to work at all the motor tax offices around the country. That's probably the main reason they won't get rid of it, too many people would be ousted out onto the dole.

Theyd find some non job for them to do and give massive payouts to relocate.

Eugene Yes

Fuel is already taxed to the extreme. Duty, VAT and carbon tax all inflating what costs approx 45cent a litre delivered to Ireland. France also have motor tax applied to fuel AFAIK and you can still buy petrol and diesel for less than here. I do agree it is the fairest way of collecting motor tax but truly there is nothing fair about it. It is abstractly called motor tax so they don't have to link it to the state of the roads. The older cars taxed on engine size average €550 for the department of Envoirnment motor tax. New cars taxed on co2 emissions average take is just over €300. This means people driving older cars are subsidising motor tax losses on newer cars. The people with less are paying more.

jimgoose

Eugene Yes wrote: »

Fuel is already taxed to the extreme. Duty, VAT and carbon tax all inflating what costs approx 45cent a litre delivered to Ireland. France also have motor tax applied to fuel AFAIK and you can still buy petrol and diesel for less than here. I do agree it is the fairest way of collecting motor tax but truly there is nothing fair about it...

Paddy doesn't want "fair", dammit - he wants to pay less than the other fucker!

Eugene Yes wrote: »

...This means people driving older cars are subsidising motor tax losses on newer cars. The people with less are paying more.

Mmmm. I wish I could afford a new diesel sh!theap wit de chape tax, like! :cool:

HondaiDTEC

2 euro a litre :eek:

No thanks.

Why can't we pay motor tax by the month?

60 euro a month by direct debit like every other bill wouldn't be too bad, but having to fork out 180 euro every 3 months or 700 for the year is a right pain.

They need to do something alright, but no one wants to see €2.02c a litre at the petrol station, I would be a stone lighter if that were the case.

bazz26

HondaiDTEC wrote: »

2 euro a litre :eek:

No thanks.

Why can't we pay motor tax by the month?

60 euro a month by direct debit like every other bill wouldn't be too bad, but having to fork out 180 euro every 3 months or 700 for the year is a right pain.

They need to do something alright, but no one wants to see €2.02c a litre at the petrol station, I would be a stone lighter if that were the case.

So how do you deal with people who sign up for DD and then after 2 months don't have/put sufficient funds in their account? Surely it would also be totally impractical to issue a disc every month to everyone once DD payment has been received.

Also I don't understand how you would prefer to pay say €60 every month yet don't like the idea of just paying an extra 50c a litre every time you fill up. It would turn motor tax into a usage tax rather than the current system that is an ownership tax, which imo is a fairer tax.

SV

bazz26 wrote: »

So how do you deal with people who sign up for DD and then after 2 months don't have/put sufficient funds in their account? Surely it would also be totally impractical to issue a disc every month to everyone once DD payment has been received.

Also I don't understand how you would prefer to pay say €60 every month yet don't like the idea of just paying an extra 50c a litre every time you fill up. It would turn motor tax into a usage tax rather than the current system that is an ownership tax, which imo is a fairer tax.

Get rid of the paper disc system. It's already linked to the car registration which is linked to Gardaí ANPR. The discs are quite simply handy, they're not essential.

If the direct debit does not come out within the allotted time(usually a week) then the fine for no tax is sent out unless the car has been declared off the road.





That said I would support it going on the fuel rather than paying motor tax the way it is.

YbFocus

I do 50,000 miles a year and my tax would jump from 1494 which is shocking already out to 2193 with the 40c tax on diesel discussed earlier!
Christ god no!

TBi

YbFocus wrote: »

I do 50,000 miles a year and my tax would jump from 1494 which is shocking already out to 2193 with the 40c tax on diesel discussed earlier!
Christ god no!

So you don't like a fairer tax where you pay more because you use the car more? Screw all the people who don't drive much (and shouldn't have to pay so much) so you can get a good deal?

moonship

As somebody said before - in Ireland we dont have road tax, its a tax paid from luxury of having a car. This all co2 classification is only way of fooling us by goverment as there is already carbon tax in fuel.
Thats why motortax is not spend on roads.
Real road tax should be included in fuel and in many countries is. Then you are fairly taxed from usage of public roads.

YbFocus

No but a hybrid system where people give a base of say 200-300 annually and then a small surcharge on fuel would be better.
A more even field for everyone.
Obviously I'm going to rather a way that suits me, in the same way that you would rather what suits you.

CiniO

TBi wrote: »

So you don't like a fairer tax where you pay more because you use the car more? Screw all the people who don't drive much (and shouldn't have to pay so much) so you can get a good deal?

But who said that those who drive more should pay more on motortax in the first place?

Aim of motortax seems to be taxation on fact of owning a vehicle. Not on driving it.

Same way as everyone pays the same in TV licence, no matter if you spend 12h a day watching RTE1 or you just don't even have an aerial and don't watch tv at all.

MadYaker

It would drive the washed diesel business into overdrive imo. Nice idea in theory though.

Red Kev

mullingar wrote: »

Well, €1054m/2.68 billion litres fuel = 0.393c/litre to maintain the same revenue income. Thats a big jump in price, probably too much for border areas

I think this is a more accurate figure.

40c a litre was the price mentioned by the Dept of Finance in 2008, when this idea was mooted by the Greens and petrol was around €1.00-€1.10 a litre. Ironically the government turned the idea down as they figured that people wouldn't be able to pay €1.40 for a litre for petrol (and that in the middle of a boom ).

The advantage of this system is that everybody would be paying a tax, instead of the current system where it's possible to avoid it. The gains here would be offset in some way by people driving less, as €2.00 a litre sould be somewhat prohibitive for a lot of people.

There wouldn't be too many savings made on tax offices, the people would be deployed, but if you look at the fact that the government are renting out a load of new offices to issue the new driving licences, instead of using existing ones you'll realise that the amount potentially saved here means nothing to them.

(One good thing is that I reckon more kids would walk short distances to school thus freeing up the roads a bit better during rush hour).

ShadowHearth

All calculation are good, but the biggest advantage would be a that there would be no dodging bastards. We pay such huge tax now not because its not enough, but because we pay for all dodgers too. If everyone in the country would pay road tax point blank ( perfect rose tinted world ), then I doubt we would have this problem in the first place.

I really doubt there would be a need to increase the petrol price that much high when scraping road tax disc, because everyone would have to pay it like it or not.

Eugene Yes

CiniO wrote: »

But who said that those who drive more should pay more on motortax in the first place?

Aim of motortax seems to be taxation on fact of owning a vehicle. Not on driving it.

Same way as everyone pays the same in TV licence, no matter if you spend 12h a day watching RTE1 or you just don't even have an aerial and don't watch tv at all.

True but if TV license was applied like motor tax then you would pay more depending on the size of your screen unless you had a new more efficient LCD TV that used less energy.
Leave the fuel alone and just have a flat motor tax fee for everyone to pay is only fair way in my view. You don't get anything in return for paying motor tax except a lighter wallet no matter what the government use to determine how much you pay.
It is just another way of getting your money.:(

smemon

You guys are assuming that the future is petrol / diesel... the reality is we're going to very quickly live in a world where petrol & diesel aren't needed to run cars...

All electric vehicles = no fuel tax... so that creates a pretty big problem for the government if motor tax is added to fuel...

joujoujou

smemon wrote: »

[...]

All electric vehicles = no fuel tax... so that creates a pretty big problem for the government if motor tax is added to fuel...

Don't worry (or rather - DO worry) they'll find a solution to drain our pockets anyway. Quicker than anyone would expect.

:P

Chris_Heilong

fuel on Tax and buy a large engined Motor is the only way to go, then get rid of insurance and do it the New Zealand way:cool:

Idbatterim

if your doing low mileage in a big engined car it is... this is never going to happen, say you find out the exact amount you would have to ad to the fuel cost to do away with motor tax. Immediately there would be a large drop in fuel use, this then means the cost has to be hiked again and its an endless cycle of increasing prices and decreasing use...

Chris_Heilong

Idbatterim wrote: »

if your doing low mileage in a big engined car it is... this is never going to happen, say you find out the exact amount you would have to ad to the fuel cost to do away with motor tax. Immediately there would be a large drop in fuel use, this then means the cost has to be hiked again and its an endless cycle of increasing prices and decreasing use...

But the money they saved in not paying Motor tax can be used on buying fuel, win win

CiniO

Red Kev wrote: »

I think this is a more accurate figure.

40c a litre was the price mentioned by the Dept of Finance in 2008, when this idea was mooted by the Greens and petrol was around €1.00-€1.10 a litre. Ironically the government turned the idea down as they figured that people wouldn't be able to pay €1.40 for a litre for petrol (and that in the middle of a boom ).

No they didn't turn the idea down.
They went for it, with only a little difference - they forgot to abolish motortax when they increased fuel price by 40c.

In 2008, when oil price (per barrel) was skying high with $150, petrol in Ireland cost about 1.20 - 1.30 euro.
Then, by the end of 2008, oil prices went down from $150 to $50. This pushed prices on petrol stations down to just below 1 euro.

So realistically, when oil costs about $100 now, petrol should cost about 1.15 euro. But unfortunately it costs about 1.55 - so it's all clear. Government introduced extra taxes which rose price of petrol by 40c.
Pity they forgot to abolish the motortax when they did so.

Moomat

Is anybody else getting butterflies thinking of the weekend cars this would make feasible!? :cool:

MadYaker

A lot of people have long commutes so I reckon this would be seriously unpopular. But in the long term it might be good. It would force people to look at alternative methods of transport which could make a proper privately owned and ran commuter transport systems for the public more lucrative.

This would reduce our overall fuel consumption by a lot. If you look at all the cars going into Galway on a weekday morning most of them only have 1 person, its crazy really when you think about it. A regular (every 10 - 15 mins) bus or train service would do away with it and take a huge number of cars off the road. However such a service isn't viable because driving is currently the cheapest and most convenient option, due to useless public transport and the relatively cheap costs of motoring.

Ideally I would love to see no motor tax and fuel at crazy prices and a new functional public transport system that everyone would use. Then we can all sell our boring commuter cars and buy something mental for the weekend :cool:

However all this would probably see the government losing out a lot in tax revenue so it'll probably never happen.

Idbatterim

But the money they saved in not paying Motor tax can be used on buying fuel, win win

most of it wouldnt believe me!

JohnBoy26

CiniO wrote: »

But who said that those who drive more should pay more on motortax in the first place?

Aim of motortax seems to be taxation on fact of owning a vehicle. Not on driving it.

Same way as everyone pays the same in TV licence, no matter if you spend 12h a day watching RTE1 or you just don't even have an aerial and don't watch tv at all.

No it's not. You can own a vehicle without having to pay motortax by declaring it off the road when not in use.

Your comparison to a tv licence is not accurate as a result of the above because it suggests that we have to pay motor tax even if our car not in use which isn't true.

CiniO

MadYaker wrote: »

A lot of people have long commutes so I reckon this would be seriously unpopular. But in the long term it might be good. It would force people to look at alternative methods of transport which could make a proper privately owned and ran commuter transport systems for the public more lucrative.

This would reduce our overall fuel consumption by a lot. If you look at all the cars going into Galway on a weekday morning most of them only have 1 person, its crazy really when you think about it. A regular (every 10 - 15 mins) bus or train service would do away with it and take a huge number of cars off the road. However such a service isn't viable because driving is currently the cheapest and most convenient option, due to useless public transport and the relatively cheap costs of motoring.

Ideally I would love to see no motor tax and fuel at crazy prices and a new functional public transport system that everyone would use. Then we can all sell our boring commuter cars and buy something mental for the weekend :cool:

However all this would probably see the government losing out a lot in tax revenue so it'll probably never happen.

But commuting by car is more comfortable, nicer, better.

Why take it away from people if they can afford it?

CiniO

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

No it's not. You can own a vehicle without having to pay motortax by declaring it off the road when not in use.

Your comparison to a tv licence is not accurate as a result of the above because it suggests that we have to pay motor tax even if our car not in use which isn't true.

OK so..
Motortax is taxation on ability of driving or parking your vehicle in public places.

No matter how you word it, I think that was the idea from the beginning motortax exist - to pay for luxury of having a car and being able to drive it.

Gumbo

colm_mcm wrote: »

Theyd find some non job for them to do and give massive payouts to relocate.

Shoite talk there.
Croke park agreement ensures redeployment without financial gain.