The duck pond in the Phoenix Park?.

arybvtcw0eolkf

I caught a snippet of a show on the radio this morning, can't even remember what the show was about.. But the chap being interviewed mentioned the WWII German bombing of North Strand but also mentioned that the duck pond in the Phoenix Park was the result of a bomb crater.

I've googled it but can't find anything.. Can anyone confirm or deny this?.

Also, I'm not entirely sure which of the ponds is the duck pond ~ I'd have thought Infirmary Road but that seems like a natural hollow.

hardCopy

Maybe the one near the Ordinance Survey, the surrounding land is flat. The pond in the Glen would seem to be another natural hollow.

Link

beauf

The seems to be a drain or something feeding that pool. I didn't look that closely when I was there last.

vektarman

Afaik, the duck pond, the one inside and directly left of the NCR entrance was created at the same time as the peoples gardens to the South of the pond, the pond is in a natural hollow and fed by a stream which runs through the zoo, the suggestion re the pond near the OS seems more likely, iirc it's fairly deep according to the warning notices on the fence around it, which might tie in with a bomb crater.

beauf

From Wiki

The North Strand Bombing[edit]

Around 2am on 31 May 1941 four German bombs dropped on north Dublin.[5][20] One bomb fell in the Ballybough area, demolishing two houses at 43 and 44 Summerhill Park,[5] injuring many but with no loss of life. A second fell at the Dog Pond pumping works near the Zoo in Phoenix Park, with no casualties but damaging Áras an Uachtaráin, the official residence of the Irish President (Douglas Hyde at the time).[5] A third made a large crater in the North Circular Road near Summerhill,[20] causing no injuries. A fourth, which was apparently a landmine, fell in North Strand destroying 17 houses and severely damaging about 50 others, with the worst damage in the area between Seville Place and Newcomen Bridge.[5][19] The raid claimed the lives of 28 people,[9] injured 90, destroyed or damaged approximately 300 houses, and left 400 people homeless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dublin_in_World_War_II

hardCopy

beauf wrote: »

From Wiki



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dublin_in_World_War_II

So somewhere around here then? http://goo.gl/maps/OzJ5b

I think that pond is enclosed within the zoo now, I never even noticed it until looking at the satellite map.

vektarman

A bit south of that Hardcopy, just to the right of Phoenix cricket club, I can't seem to link it.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Cheers beauf.. Its the DOG pond so!.. Anyone know which pond is the dog pond?.

vektarman

The dog pond is also known as the citadel pond (on OSI maps), I can't link it but it's just to the right of Phoenix cricket club on googlemaps, just off Chesterfield Avenue.

Edit: I wonder were the pumping works buildings were.

Found the pumping station beside the Dog (citadel) pond.
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,712513,734785,7,9

HeidiHeidi

Yes, as you head out of town on the main road (Chesterfield Ave), just past the cricket grounds, more or less opposite the zoo.

It has one of those black oval information signs naming it / pointing it out on the footpath on the main road. It's got a low fence around it.

ETA - the fact that it's a bomb crater is news to me too. You learn something new every day

ETA again - dunno if this link will work.... https://maps.google.com/

and again.... bah, it didn't! But Citadel Pond is marked near the Parkgate St. gate to the left of Chesterfield Ave. on Google Maps.

The Pond by OSI is marked on some maps as Quarry Lake.

The maps on OSI site are good.

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,710414,736284,7,9

vektarman

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Yes, as you head out of town on the main road (Chesterfield Ave), just past the cricket grounds, more or less opposite the zoo.

It has one of those black oval information signs naming it / pointing it out on the footpath on the main road. It's got a low fence around it.

ETA - the fact that it's a bomb crater is news to me too. You learn something new every day

ETA again - dunno if this link will work.... https://maps.google.com/

and again.... bah, it didn't! But Citadel Pond is marked near the Parkgate St. gate to the left of Chesterfield Ave. on Google Maps.

I don't think the dog pond itself is a bomb crater, at least not from WW 2, the pond is marked on the 1900 OSI map.

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,712618,734884,7,9

TrueDub

It's between the two cricket clubs, closer to Civil Service (across the road from the zoo).

arybvtcw0eolkf

I know the pond, its on the way into the Defence Forces Athletic Grounds.

Great help guys, thnaks.

beauf

That article doesn't say it caused a pond, I would have thought they filled any bomb craters. Would a pond be there already in the park, then it would have be lined with stones I assume. Don't ponds have a feed and outlet somewhere. Otherwise the water would stagnate.

Its an odd pattern for the bombs to fall in.

TrueDub

The Dog Pond was definitely formed due to bomb damage. The same bomb scattered stones & debris all over the playing area in Phoenix CC, requiring a gathering of members to clear the ground before an important match that weekend! :-)

The blast also damaged the roof of the Phoenix CC pavilion (still standing today), for which the club received compensation from the German Embassy.

hardCopy

foreign wrote: »

The Pond by OSI is marked on some maps as Quarry Lake.

The maps on OSI site are good.

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,710414,736284,7,9

Thanks, now I've also learned why Garda HQ is known as "The Depot"

ThisRegard

TrueDub wrote: »

The Dog Pond was definitely formed due to bomb damage.

But if it's on a circa 1900 map as a previous poster pointed out it can't be ?

beauf

TrueDub wrote: »

The Dog Pond was definitely formed due to bomb damage....

Did the Dog Pond pumping works not exist there before the bomb? How long has a pumping works been there and what does it do. Maybe it was built after. The map suggests not.

Why is the HQ "the depot". I must have missed something?

hardCopy

beauf wrote: »

Did the Dog Pond pumping works not exist there before the bomb? How long has a pumping works been there and what does it do. Maybe it was built after. The map suggests not.

Why is the HQ "the depot". I must have missed something?

It's labelled on the map as Royal Irish Constabulary Depot. I did some work in there before and people often referred to it as "The Depot" but all the signage called it Garda Head Quarters, the name is presumably a hangover from RIC times.

beauf

Ah

TrueDub

ThisRegard wrote: »

But if it's on a circa 1900 map as a previous poster pointed out it can't be ?

beauf wrote: »

Did the Dog Pond pumping works not exist there before the bomb? How long has a pumping works been there and what does it do. Maybe it was built after. The map suggests not.

Why is the HQ "the depot". I must have missed something?

Very good points, sorry. I do know the area around the pond was bomb-damaged, so maybe it was enlarged?

chopper6

A bomb such as dropped by a Heinkel bomber wouldnt be powerful enough to cause crater that would stay intact long enough to become a pond.

A 500lb bomb might scoop out a few feet on soft ground but rainfal;l etc would soon level int out more or less.

In order to make a pond from a bomb you would need a truly huge explosion...i'm talking about hundreds of tons of explosives such as were detonated at Beaumont Hamel in ww1 and not the sort of bomb carried by a plane.

For example This was caused by a V2 in england and its barely noticible.

alastair

chopper6 wrote: »

A bomb such as dropped by a Heinkel bomber wouldnt be powerful enough to cause crater that would stay intact long enough to become a pond.

A 500lb bomb might scoop out a few feet on soft ground but rainfal;l etc would soon level int out more or less.

The North Strand bomb damage looks a bit worse than that.

beauf

I assume there was more then one bomb dropped in some locations. AFAIK the germans never used really large bombs, I think the largest one regularly used was the 1,000kg. But I expect they usually carried much smaller ones. Do we know what aircraft was used in the raids? I expect they were at extreme range so had a reduced loadout.

hardCopy

beauf wrote: »

I assume there was more then one bomb dropped in some locations. AFAIK the germans never used really large bombs, I think the largest one regularly used was the 1,000kg. But I expect they usually carried much smaller ones. Do we know what aircraft was used in the raids? I expect they were at extreme range so had a reduced loadout.

I'd guess there were multiple bombs involved in the strike on the Phoenix Park if the Aras was damaged as well as the Dog/Duck/Citadel Pond, there's a fair distance between the two.

Victor

alastair wrote: »

The North Strand bomb damage looks a bit worse than that.

http://comeheretome.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/dublin.jpg

The crater suggests a relatively small bomb. A V2 (one tonne of explosives, impact speed 2,880 km/h) would create a crater of 20 metres diameter and 8 metres deep.

beauf wrote: »

I assume there was more then one bomb dropped in some locations. AFAIK the germans never used really large bombs, I think the largest one regularly used was the 1,000kg. But I expect they usually carried much smaller ones. Do we know what aircraft was used in the raids? I expect they were at extreme range so had a reduced loadout.

Typical bombings, by both sides, involved some high explosive bombs, accompanied by large numbers of small incendiaries. The idea was that the bomb would damage roofs and the incendiaries would then set fire to the interiors.

hardCopy wrote: »

I'd guess there were multiple bombs involved in the strike on the Phoenix Park if the Aras was damaged as well as the Dog/Duck/Citadel Pond, there's a fair distance between the two.

Not necessarily. The damage to the Arás may have only been broken windows.

Tordelback

Ellie Cold Sagebrush wrote: »

I know the pond, its on the way into the Defence Forces Athletic Grounds.

That particular pond is actually an enlarged part of the ditch of the massive star-shaped fort known as Wharton's Folly, which was apparently too large to ever be fully finished as a fortification, and far too close to the Royal Barracks (now Collins) to ever have been practically occupied. It was however used for maneuvers and war games in the 18th C. It appears to have been completely levelled around the time Chesterfield Avenue was realigned, and indeed its eastern bastion extended under the modern line of the road. You can just about trace out some of its earthworks on the less-levelled portions of the Defence Forces ground and the Oliver Plunkett GAA pitches: it was truly huge, especially when compared to its extant successor to the west.

ThisRegard

Tordelback wrote: »

That particular pond is actually an enlarged part of the ditch of the massive star-shaped fort known as Wharton's Folly,

Whartons Folly is long gone now isn't it ? It makes sense that the pond was part of the moat or whatever as as far as I know, read or hear somewhere the fort is/was where the sports grounds are ?

Was there ever drawings of what it looked like ?


edit: I probably read it here - http://www.phoenixpark.ie/about/archaeology/

chopper6

alastair wrote: »

The North Strand bomb damage looks a bit worse than that.

The wooden timbers visible round the crater suggest that this is the remains of a house with the basement underneath.

A bomb landing on solid concrete for example would barely make a crater at all.

Certainly between the explosive force and the kinetic energy a bomb landing on soft ground would make a hole but not big enough to form a full-sized pond unless it was an extraordianrily large munition.

vektarman

Here's an 1837 map which shows the outline of the Star Fort, including the ponds and ditches.

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,712489,734862,6,8

Filibuster

Slight Off Topic:

Is this the crater holes from the training conducted by the British Army Artillery School. The school was based in the barracks at Islandbridge I beleive did their training on the 12 acres.

https://maps.google.ie/maps?q=53.360848,-6.31081&hl=en&ll=53.355777,-6.348829&spn=0.001042,0.002411&sll=53.362967,-6.30465&sspn=0.005743,0.016512&t=h&z=19

beauf

That's just a grass car park that's been destroyed by cars AFAIK.

I would expect Artillery shell holes would be a lot bigger and much more dispersed. I wouldn't expect any from the British time to still exist like that.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Filibuster wrote: »

Slight Off Topic:

Is this the crater holes from the training conducted by the British Army Artillery School. The school was based in the barracks at Islandbridge I beleive did their training on the 12 acres.

https://maps.google.ie/maps?q=53.360848,-6.31081&hl=en&ll=53.355777,-6.348829&spn=0.001042,0.002411&sll=53.362967,-6.30465&sspn=0.005743,0.016512&t=h&z=19

I doubt the Brits used any Dublin lands as artillery training grounds.

Filibuster

Ellie Cold Sagebrush wrote: »

I doubt the Brits used any Dublin lands as artillery training grounds.

They did, the 15 acres was the artillery training ground for the Dublin artillery regiments. The Royal Dublin Fusiliers also dug trenches on the 15 acres and conducted their pre WW1 training there.

Fifteen Acres (east)

Historical name and use
‘Artillery Practice Ground’ site of former gun
batteries and a ‘Camp Ground’.

http://www.phoenixpark.ie/media/Phoenix%20Park%20Conservation%20Management%20Plan%20Consultation%20Draft%20March%202009.pdf

arybvtcw0eolkf

Filibuster wrote: »

They did, the 15 acres was the artillery training ground for the Dublin artillery regiments. The Royal Dublin Fusiliers also dug trenches on the 15 acres and conducted their pre WW1 training there.

But was it used for range practice?.

Filibuster

Ellie Cold Sagebrush wrote: »

But was it used for range practice?.

Looking at the OSI map, there is 3 artillery batteries located to the west of the Magazine Fort. It appears they would fire into the "butt" - I assume is a large mound of earth.



http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,711693,734612,7,8

arybvtcw0eolkf

Thats interesting, I must look into that in work.. Have you any idea where the 'butt' is located?.

LXFlyer

Ellie Cold Sagebrush wrote: »

Thats interesting, I must look into that in work.. Have you any idea where the 'butt' is located?.

Not being smart - but it's clearly marked on the OSI map linked to above which you can switch to the current maps by using the overlay slide on the righthand side, which you can also zoom out!

arybvtcw0eolkf

lxflyer wrote: »

Not being smart

Yup, you're not being smart.

beauf

In fairness its just one or two clicks on the zoom.

Its just beside the Magazine.

arybvtcw0eolkf

beauf wrote: »

Its just beside the Magazine.

Grand, I can see it on the OS map of course. I was wondering where it would be located now. I really can't see the Phoenix Park being used by an artillery unit for range practice.

beauf

The map AFAIK is between 1829 and 1842. It was well outside of the city back then. Those artillery ranges might have still been there from an earlier time, though perhaps not in use when then map was made, but the features might have still been there.

The Magazine Fort in the south east of the Park marks the location where Phoenix Lodge was built by Sir Edward Fisher in 1611. In 1734 the house was demolished when the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Lionel Sackville, 1st Duke of Dorset directed that a powder magazine be provided for Dublin. An additional wing was added to the fort in 1801 for troops.

The Magazine Fort, constructed in 1736 with additions in 1756, was a major military institution from which small arms, munitions and gunpowder were distributed to other military barracks in the Dublin area. Mountjoy Cavalry Barracks (formerly the home of Luke Gardiner, one of the Keepers of the Park) and the Royal Military Infirmary were two further buildings constructed during the 18th century in 1725 and 1786 respectively. The role of the Salute Battery (for firing cannon on Royal and other special occasions), situated in the environs of the Wellington Testimonial, was discontinued and the lands it occupied within the Park subsequently became known as the Wellington Fields and on which the Wellington Testimonial was erected.

Although the military dominated the Park’s institutions and Park use in the 18th century, their influence was lessened somewhat in the 19th century (though Mountjoy Barracks became the Irish headquarters of the Ordnance Survey in 1825). The presence of the police became more prominent, as illustrated by the construction in 1842 of the Royal Irish Constabulary depot near the North Circular Road entrance to the Park and two police barracks – one at Ashtown Gate and the other at Parkgate Street.

Victor

I imagine most of the artillery used before WWI would have been either solid (non-explosive) rounds or relatively small in size.

For WWI, I imagine the would have been using the 2 pounder, which fired airburst (time fuse) ammunition, designed to cut barbed wire and cause casualties, not destroy things.