Fair System

Dublin Spur

I was looking at recent results at my old club and noticed that a lot of winning scores were in and around 42pts (-6 Net). The majority of winners were in the 12 to 18 handicap range. No single figure members featured at all.

I play off 5 and there's pretty much no chance of me shooting 1 under to equal 42 pts, my best ever score is -1 and that happend only once (off yellow) and I've been playing +20yrs.

Anyway this got me thinking:

1. Is it fair that teen handicapper needs to perform to a lower level (within their own ability) to get a winning score compared with a low single figure handicapper ?

2a. Are handicaps in a club generally wrong if the regular winning score is up around 42pts/-6 ?

2b. Isn't playing to your handicap supposed to be a stretch of your abilities ?

John Divney

Maybe. There are a load of golfers at 18, who can put one good round together and win, but shoot well over a hundred the next week when the driver goes and three putting returns with a vengence.

m r c

In my club 36-38 will generally place you in a members comp, a little higher in fairness if it's an open. That said in the last fortnight I came 2nd on bot with 36 points(the bugger beat me by 1 on the back nine) in an open and this summer 29 was good enough for a win with 25 coming 2nd over 18 holes on links.

shane0007

It's always going to be easier for the mid handicapper to beat the low handicapper with stableford.
Stroke on the other hand suits the low handicapper so I suppose it swings & roundabouts.
My course is a par 71 & Sunday's monthly medal was won by a 6 handicapper Gross 68, net 62, but that was a particularly low score for the club.

Benicetomonty

I think that it is more difficult for low men to win competitions outright but would wager they feature more frequently in the general prizes shake-up than higher handicappers. A single figure golfer is more likely not to blow up in a competition and therefore has a reasonable chance of shooting in or around his-her handicap more often than someone off 18 or 19. High handicappers will shoot a great round every now and again, but they'll get a good chop for it and you won't see them again for a while, at least the ones who are playing honestly.

To give you an example, our captain's prize hasn't been won by anyone in single figures for probably a decade at this stage, but low category 1 players won more prizes than any other category last year. So it should even out; as a 5 handicapper, you won't win first prize very often, but you should manage to pick up 2 or 3 lesser prizes during a year, assuming you play as much as the next guy.

That's all assuming stringent honesty and integrity amongst a club's membership, which are never a guarantee...

Mr. Larson

Gross prizes at many clubs are many and often shared among the elite few. Plus, I'm assuming you managed to win a prize or two on the way down to 5 - to expect to continue to feature in nett prizes in Stableford competitions is unfortunately unrealistic as has already been mentioned. It's like professional life in some companies, you can get continually promoted to your own level of incompetence (or in this case inability to compete). I won a good few prizes on the way down from 18 to 8. Nowadays I don't get within an asses roar of the prizes, either Gross or Nett but I'm sure I'll feature maybe once a year. That'll do me.

Russman

I think it depends on the course and the standard scratch as well. In my club 36pts frequently wins, sometimes even less.
That's why I reckon there's a weakness in our handicapping system - two 12 handicappers from two different clubs could be of vastly different abilities, yet within the system they're viewed as equal.

Mr. Larson

Doesn't CSS balance things out somewhat? CSS must be fierce low at your comps then? We get silly scores at my course but CSS is then 38/39pts making it harder to lose shots.

Almaviva

Dublin Spur wrote: »

Anyway this got me thinking:

1. Is it fair that teen handicapper needs to perform to a lower level (within their own ability) to get a winning score compared with a low single figure handicapper ?

2a. Are handicaps in a club generally wrong if the regular winning score is up around 42pts/-6 ?

2b. Isn't playing to your handicap supposed to be a stretch of your abilities ?

1. Question based on a false premise. The teen handicapper does not get a winning score performing to a lower level.
2. No. This is a designed.
3. Yes, and indeed, is for everyone but bandits(= out and out cheats).

Ben1977

Yes it is a fair system

sydneybound

Mr. Larson wrote: »

I won a good few prizes on the way down from 18 to 8. Nowadays I don't get within an asses roar of the prizes, either Gross or Nett but I'm sure I'll feature maybe once a year. That'll do me.

Ditto. Gone are the days that I win although I did have spell when I was winning regularly for about 6-9 monts. That day is unfortunately gone and although I regular play to my handicap of 8 I haven't even come close in the last 3 years apart from recently shooting +6 in a stroke comp and losing on count back to come 2nd.

I think the fairest way is to have two different categories 0-12 and 13 and above or if it's a real big field have three: 1-12, 13-18 and 19 above, something along those lines to make it a level playing field. A 5 handicap can never compete with a lad off 20 shooting +13 which most 20 handicappers I've seen can do compare to -2 for a 5 handicapper which is a stop to far for many. Basically I don't see much of a different between some 20 to 12 handicappers however the different from 5 to scratch is huge.

GreeBo

sydneybound wrote: »

Ditto. Gone are the days that I win although I did have spell when I was winning regularly for about 6-9 monts. That day is unfortunately gone and although I regular play to my handicap of 8 I haven't even come close in the last 3 years apart from recently shooting +6 in a stroke comp and losing on count back to come 2nd.

I think the fairest way is to have two different categories 0-12 and 13 and above or if it's a real big field have three: 1-12, 13-18 and 19 above, something along those lines to make it a level playing field. A 5 handicap can never compete with a lad off 20 shooting 7 (+13) which most 20 handicappers I've seen can do compare to -2 for a 5 handicapper which is a stop to far for many. Basically I don't see much of a different between some 20 to 12 handicappers however the different from 5 to scratch is huge.

Maybe its just in my club, but for the class prizes, the classes are determined by the number of people at that level...not the handicap categories.
e.g. for the ladies Class 1 is 0 to 15 handicap, because there are bugger all of them at that level.

Barnaboy

In our club on a standard Sunday morning competition, we have 1st and 2nd prizes, then a prize for each of categories 1 to 4. I always assumed this was normal practice? It gives everyone a chance of winning something.

It's only in medals that everyone is together.

thewobbler

Dublin Spur wrote: »

I was looking at recent results at my old club and noticed that a lot of winning scores were in and around 42pts (-6 Net). The majority of winners were in the 12 to 18 handicap range. No single figure members featured at all.

I play off 5 and there's pretty much no chance of me shooting 1 under to equal 42 pts, my best ever score is -1 and that happend only once (off yellow) and I've been playing +20yrs.

Anyway this got me thinking:

1. Is it fair that teen handicapper needs to perform to a lower level (within their own ability) to get a winning score compared with a low single figure handicapper ?

2a. Are handicaps in a club generally wrong if the regular winning score is up around 42pts/-6 ?

2b. Isn't playing to your handicap supposed to be a stretch of your abilities ?

I could be wrong, but I would guess that the majority of golfers in your club play off 12-18, and as such statistically that's where the majority of prizes should end up.

Especially so in stableford competitions, as anyone playing off 12-15 has a strong enough game to par or birdie any individual hole on any given day, and at least one or two of them are going to have their A game on any given day.

kelbal

Barnaboy wrote: »

In our club on a standard Sunday morning competition, we have 1st and 2nd prizes, then a prize for each of categories 1 to 4. I always assumed this was normal practice? It gives everyone a chance of winning something.

Thats the same as my place - there's an overall winner, but you can still win your class

Dublin Spur

sydneybound wrote: »

A 5 handicap can never compete with a lad off 20 shooting +13 which most 20 handicappers I've seen can do compare to -2 for a 5 handicapper which is a stop to far for many.

Basically I don't see much of a different between some 20 to 12 handicappers however the different from 5 to scratch is huge.

I would agree with all of this.

Something seems wrong to me if all players don't have an equal chance of competing for a title.

The current handicap system has a blind spot on this issue in my opinion, it basically says that the difficulty factor for a 20 handicapper to shoot +13 is the same difficulty factor that a 5 handicapper would face in order to -2. The difficulty factors in these examples are far from equal in my experience.

John Divney

I was watching the Trilby tour and the winner of the qualifier was 40 points off 18or 17 (iirc)

He looked a good golfer, and putter, strange.

PARlance

John Divney wrote: »

I was watching the Trilby tour and the winner of the qualifier was 40 points off 18or 17 (iirc)

He looked a good golfer, and putter, strange.

I've watched most of them over the last year or so, I think the winners are generally a lot lower.
Checked the site but they don't give HC's though.

I was expecting it to be a bandit fest, and it might be, but from my viewing it's not a really high bandit fest in general.

ssbob

ajcurry123 wrote: »

I've watched most of them over the last year or so, I think the winners are generally a lot lower.
Checked the site but they don't give HC's though.

I was expecting it to be a bandit fest, and it might be, but from my viewing it's not a really high bandit fest in general.

The irish guy that won it last year was a 15 handicap I think and I seem to remember him shooting -1 in the 3 hole playoff to win! Good going!

In my club, you would rarely see anything over 36 not getting in the prizes, but for the majors it is always the low guys who win or are in the prizes and in the GOTY it is always the low guys again who feature every year!

Wichita Lineman

I took a quick look through Moate GC competitions from Feb to Sept 2013.

In stableford comps the 1st Prize hc ranged from -1 to 27.
*Cat 1 won 3 events, Cat 2 won 7 events, Cat 3 won 9 and Cat 4 won 1.

In stroke comps the 1st Prize hc was between 5 and 21.
*Cat 1 won 1 stroke event, Cat 2 won 3, Cat 3 won 6, Cat 4 won 1.

I'm sure I have seen somewhere that the majority of golfers fall into Cat 3 and interestingly enough in our club that was where most wins came from in both formats.

PARlance

Andy Dunne11 wrote: »

I took a quick look through Moate GC competitions from Feb to Sept 2013.

In stableford comps the 1st Prize hc ranged from -1 to 27.
*Cat 1 won 3 events, Cat 2 won 7 events, Cat 3 won 9 and Cat 4 won 1.

In stroke comps the 1st Prize hc was between 5 and 21.
*Cat 1 won 1 stroke event, Cat 2 won 3, Cat 3 won 6, Cat 4 won 1.

I'm sure I have seen somewhere that the majority of golfers fall into Cat 3 and interestingly enough in our club that was where most wins came from in both formats.

I found a club that publishes all it members and their handicaps on their website when looking into this a while back
I wasn't a member anywhere at the time when I did this Andy so I wasn't really aware of the categories and hence I just did it based on 0-10 HC, 10-20HC and 20+

The club is Swords Open, here's the link to the original thread I posted.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81328879

0-10 HC: 3% of members
10:20 HC: 57% of members
20+: 40% of members

ballyk

ajcurry123 wrote: »

I found a club that publishes all it members and their handicaps on their website when looking into this a while back
I wasn't a member anywhere at the time when I did this Andy so I wasn't really aware of the categories and hence I just did it based on 0-10 HC, 10-20HC and 20+

The club is Swords Open, here's the link to the original thread I posted.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81328879

0-10 HC: 3% of members
10:20 HC: 57% of members
20+: 40% of members

Not sure when you say 0-10, 10-20 whether you are including 10 handicappers in category 1 or 2. You can get that on howdidido for some clubs anyway. Assuming it's 0-9, 10-19, 20+ then the numbers for Ballykisteen are

0-9 HC: 10% of members
10-19 HC: 71% of members
20+ HC: 19% of members

PARlance

ballyk wrote: »

Not sure when you say 0-10, 10-20 whether you are including 10 handicappers in category 1 or 2. You can get that on howdidido for some clubs anyway. Assuming it's 0-9, 10-19, 20+ then the numbers for Ballykisteen are

0-9 HC: 10% of members
10-19 HC: 71% of members
20+ HC: 19% of members

Just checked old post, 0-9, 10-19, 20+
I wasn't tuned into HDID or anything like that as I was a casual golfer back then.
I might do a review once scoring comps are over in my club. % Comps won by Cat v % Players in each Cat.

ernieprice

In our club a 5 handicapper won the Captain's Prize.
I won the President's Prize, I play off 7 and was 4 shots behind the first round leader who was off 21. The Golfer of the year was won by a 4 handicapper. It is fair to say that in stroke play competitions single figure golfers have an advantage more so than in stableford.

PARlance

ernieprice wrote: »

In our club a 5 handicapper won the Captain's Prize.
I won the President's Prize, I play off 7 and was 4 shots behind the first round leader who was off 21. The Golfer of the year was won by a 4 handicapper. It is fair to say that in stroke play competitions single figure golfers have an advantage more so than in stableford.

Delighted to hear that 2 out of 3 were won by low guys

Only messing, congrats, and it's really refreshing to hear that.
I don't think the system is as skewed towards high HC'ers as some think.

Stroke and consistency (GOTY) seem to favour low.
Stableford seems to favour high.
There is a nice balance of them in most clubs.

There may be more stableford, but that reflects the fact the the majority of golfers are over 9.
The big comps: monthly medals, captains, presidents are generally stroke.

You can talk about changing the system but I've yet to hear of a better suggestion than the one at present and the balance it gives to all golfers.

One thing that I do think should change is that clubs themselves should maybe have a category prize in each comp.
If every club did this with the current system it would be as good as possibly gets IMO.

spacecoyote

I see on our club newsletter that our GOY was won by a 1 handicap.

Fair play to him, thats a seriously consistent season to be in the mix