WCC Refuse to take charge of Charlesland Dual Carriageway

Run DMC

I read recently in the Wicklow Times that the council voted against taking in charge the dual carriageway through Charlesland and only took charge of the spine road. They refused to take charge of the dual carriageway due to the amount of maintenence work that would be required, the cost of this work. It was proposed that the WCC do not take charge "until a plan to maintain it is agreed."

I emailed WCC and got confirmation of this fact. When I asked who was paying for the maintenence now I was told "we assume a Charlesland Management Company".

Can anyone involved in one of the management companies let me know if we as residents are contributing to this public dual carriageway through our management fees.

If so, then it seems wrong that we are paying for the up keep of a public road as WCC do not want to have to pay for it.

Charlie-Bravo

I'm interested in how pressure can be put on WCC now that they have plenty of funds available to them by means of the newly introduced Local Property Tax. #NoExcuse

Car2318

If my management fees are paying for the upkeep of public road, used by people in all environs - Kilcoole, Delgany, Wicklow, Greystones etc etc then I insist we place a toll on it!
Free pass to residents and all others are charged - simple as.
I will even volunteer my services in manning this toll!

I certainly hope our fees are not covering it - especially considering reading of the Park last accounts and amount of non payments!

pixbyjohn

Now that the Spine road is taken over by WCC will it mean that all the lampposts etc. will be full of election posters in the run up to the next elections?

The Real B-man

Car2318 wrote: »

If my management fees are paying for the upkeep of public road, used by people in all environs - Kilcoole, Delgany, Wicklow, Greystones etc etc then I insist we place a toll on it!
Free pass to residents and all others are charged - simple as.
I will even volunteer my services in manning this toll!

I certainly hope our fees are not covering it - especially considering reading of the Park last accounts and amount of non payments!

Bit Dramatic its Classed as a Regional Road R774 I pay MotorTax its not my Fault who is Responosible for it which i agree should be the Local Council its open Nearly 8yrs.

Car2318

Do you think?
I don't think it is one bit dramatic. If its a regional road then why should one particular estate's management fees pay for it.
Are you paying fees towards it?
We both pay road tax so why should I contribute more to a 5km stretch of road that we both use.

Anyway I think WCC will have no choice.

JanneG

The Real B-man wrote: »

Bit Dramatic its Classed as a Regional Road R774 I pay MotorTax its not my Fault who is Responosible for it which i agree should be the Local Council its open Nearly 8yrs.

Since when does the motor tax in Ireland pay for any of the roads?

Annasopra

Make it an issue for next Mays elections

Charlie-Bravo

On the other point, did I hear that only the road on the spine was taken in charge by WCC and not the green area and the playground? There's a huge cost in terms of public liability insurance on this area. Would be great to get confirmation if the overall management company is shelling out for PL as well as maintenance.

matt-dublin

there was talk about this in the overall committee recently.

they council have requested charlesland to pay for it, unequivocally the answer will be no.
there were some very compelling statements against charlesland taking the cost and some of them included:

we've spent a lot of time trying to reduce the fees for our residents, we have little or no intention of having to raise them.
we've all been faced to pay property tax this year, use that money.
we're all going to have to pay for water next year, despite the fact the last time there was a major leak in the estate we had to repair it at our own cost.
the road is now advertised as the main carriage way form the n11 into greystones, why should only charlesland fund the maintenance?
we have enough difficulty getting residents to pay fees, this will make it more troublesome.

nearly half a million euro was raised from LPT from Charlesland alone, they should be using that to fund it.

also just to note, it was Derek Mitchell who proposed that only the road be taken into charge and not the landscaping maintenance. George Jones proposed that Charlesland should fund the landscaping.

i would ask that you all begin emailing them in complaint that they even suggested such a ludicrous idea but also lobby him to have the council pay for the maintenance.
gjones@georgejones.ie
mitchelld@eircom.net

loyatemu

what a farce. What do the planning conditions for Charlesland say about the access road? Is there anything to legally stop you blocking it off?

Annasopra

matt-dublin wrote: »

there was talk about this in the overall committee recently.

they council have requested charlesland to pay for it, unequivocally the answer will be no.
there were some very compelling statements against charlesland taking the cost and some of them included:

we've spent a lot of time trying to reduce the fees for our residents, we have little or no intention of having to raise them.
we've all been faced to pay property tax this year, use that money.
we're all going to have to pay for water next year, despite the fact the last time there was a major leak in the estate we had to repair it at our own cost.
the road is now advertised as the main carriage way form the n11 into greystones, why should only charlesland fund the maintenance?
we have enough difficulty getting residents to pay fees, this will make it more troublesome.

nearly half a million euro was raised from LPT from Charlesland alone, they should be using that to fund it.

also just to note, it was Derek Mitchell who proposed that only the road be taken into charge and not the landscaping maintenance. George Jones proposed that Charlesland should fund the landscaping.

i would ask that you all begin emailing them in complaint that they even suggested such a ludicrous idea but also lobby him to have the council pay for the maintenance.
gjones@georgejones.ie
mitchelld@eircom.net

I don't understand what you are saying at all there? Are you saying that Derek Mitchell and George Jones proposed that WCC take the road in charge but that the residents pay for the landscaping? Is that what Wicklow County Council voted on recently? I thought I read that there was some vote at Wicklow County Council and George, Derek, Grainne and Tom all voted one way and all the other councillors voted another way.

Who pays for maintenance of the road at the moment?

matt-dublin

The builders pay for it currently. The council voted I think not to take the landscaping in charge because they didn't have the resources/budget

Annasopra

I found the Wicklow Times article I will try and scan later

FirstIn

mango salsa wrote: »

I found the Wicklow Times article I will try and scan later

Yes. That would be good. Before we go emailing the councillors we need to be clear on what they voted for and against.

matt-dublin

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/wicklowpeople/localnotes/no-funds-to-maintain-dual-carriageway-29550892.html

Eponymous

FirstIn wrote: »

Yes. That would be good. Before we go emailing the councillors we need to be clear on what they voted for and against.

We also need to be clear on just who it was voted in this way, it's not just Jones and Mitchell.

Wicklow People wrote:

Cllr. Mitchell's proposal, along with the amendment from Cllr. Jones, was put to the vote and narrowly passed, with 11 voting in favour, 10 against, 1 abstaining and 2 not present

These individuals will be knocking on doors next Spring and will be relying on votes from Charlesland to keep their snouts in the trough.

In the meantime, the joint Management Committees need to be steadfast in their resolution that not one cent of our fees goes to maintaining a public road.

Charlie-Bravo

From that article:

Cllr. Mitchell's proposal, along with the amendment from Cllr. Jones, was put to the vote and narrowly passed, with 11 voting in favour, 10 against, 1 abstaining and 2 not present

So who are the 11 in favour, and 10 against of not of Mitchell's proposal? Name and shame. This will be important for the next local elections.

Do any of these councillors live in Charlesland? It seems to me they couldn't give two hoots about Charlesland - nearly a snobbish 'blow in' attitude given towards people of Charlesland with a 'let them fend for themselves' stance.

Charlie-Bravo

Actually, James O'Sullivan welcomed the turning on of the traffic lights near Shoreline. They haven't worked since the big 'flash'. I hope he's back onto the newspapers about his dismay as there is no funding to switch the lights back on.

matt-dublin

we should probably lobby simon harris about it as well, he's usually fairly good in these matters.

Annasopra

Eponymous wrote: »

We also need to be clear on just who it was voted in this way, it's not just Jones and Mitchell.



These individuals will be knocking on doors next Spring and will be relying on votes from Charlesland to keep their snouts in the trough.

In the meantime, the joint Management Committees need to be steadfast in their resolution that not one cent of our fees goes to maintaining a public road.

Just to be clear

The 21 Councillors who voted for or against this are members of Wicklow County Council. Only 4 members of WCC represent the Greystones area. This will increase to 6 because of the abolition of Greystones Town Council.

Eponymous

mango salsa wrote: »

Just to be clear

The 21 Councillors who voted for or against this are members of Wicklow County Council. Only 4 members of WCC represent the Greystones area. This will increase to 6 because of the abolition of Greystones Town Council.

I never said otherwise.

Charlie-Bravo

Without losing focus - who were the councillors present that voted? I am happy to send an email to each seeking confirmation in writing on which way they voted.

loyatemu

even more bizarre - the council officials wanted to take over the road, but Mitchell and Jones (who are Greystones councillors) lobbied against it.

Presumably the building of the road as a dual carriageway was part of the planning conditions for Charlesland (it forms part of the Greystones Southern Access Route which the council themselves planned). If it was just an access road for Charlesland maybe, but its not, the entire town uses it.

Is this just the eastern section of the road (i.e. from the Kilcoole Road roundabout to Shoreline)? Does the council already maintain the section up to the N11?

MyPerfectCousin

loyatemu wrote: »

even more bizarre - the council officials wanted to take over the road, but Mitchell and Jones (who are Greystones councillors) lobbied against it.

That's the bit that struck me too. And councillors from south Wicklow giving out to Greystones councillors about it. THere is something not being said here. I wonder if Jones and Mitchell are afraid that maintenance budgets for Greystones overall will be impacted by the cost of maintaining this road that they got for free up to now. I.e., if the council has to maintain the Charlesland dual carriageway without an increase in budget, maintenance of Church Road, Rathdown Road, etc., will suffer.

loyatemu

the population of Greystones has increased, mainly as a result of the Charlesland & Eden Gate developments. WCC will benefit from increased LPT as a result, the corollary is that they will have to spend more money on services in Greystones, including maintaining the new roads...

Annasopra

astrofluff wrote: »

Without losing focus - who were the councillors present that voted? I am happy to send an email to each seeking confirmation in writing on which way they voted.

This is the July Minutes

http://www.wicklow.ie/Apps/WicklowBeta/members/MinutesWCC2013/Minutes%20of%20Ordinary%20Meeting%2001-07-2013.pdf

Item No. 5.
To consider the Taking in Charge of the following estates/roads:
• Belard Manor, Glenealy
• Charlesland Dual-Carraigeway and Spine Road, Charlesland
• Deerpark View, Baltinglass
• Castle Court, Kiltegan
• Seapoint, Wicklow
• The Belfry, Aughrim

................

2. Charlesland Dual Carriageway and Spine Road, Charlesland – Concern was expressed regarding the future maintenance of this roadway in that the Council may not be in a position to maintain the area following taking in charge. Clarification on this was requested from the Director of Services as well as confirmation that he was satisfied that the road and the spine road was constructed in accordance with planning permission and that all of the public lighting, traffic lights etc were in functional order.

The Director of Services advised that there were two roads involved and that the dual carriage was not part of the housing development and therefore was not maintained by the management company but by Ballymore homes up to the present. Wicklow County Council does not cut the grass in the open spaces in private housing estates, however in the case of the dual carriageway the maintenance will be the responsibility of Wicklow County Council and while Ballymore Homes have been maintaining it up to now the Council cannot legally insist that this practice continue. He confirmed that as far as he was aware all work has been carried out in accordance with planning permission. Cllr. G. Jones advised that he found it hard to believe that a developer was carrying out the maintenance of the dual carriageway free gratis having regard to the amount of workmen involved and the manner in which it was precisely done every summer for the last five or six years. He proposed that the matter be discussed again at the Greystones Area meeting and that it be deferred to the September Agenda. This was seconded by
Cllr. G. McLoughlin and agreed.

.......

At the conclusion of the discussion on the matter Cllr. P. Vance recommended that in future prior to the Council being requested to approve the taking in charge of estates that they be considered by the respective area committees in advance.

The report in the paper appears to be from the September meeting - the minutes of the September meeting are not on WCC website yet

FirstIn

Is there any way we can find out how the other 2 Greystones councillors voted?
As it stands we know how Derek Mitchell and George Jones voted. On this matter they are no friends of Charlesland.

Annasopra

FirstIn wrote: »

Is there any way we can find out how the other 2 Greystones councillors voted?

Contact them and ask them

FirstIn

Mitchell's says ; "'There are 5,000 people living in that estate. It's a big place with around €600,000 coming into the council from the household charge and rates from the factory there. It will cost a lot of money to maintain the dual carriageway. The Area Manager for Greystones keeps telling us he has no extra money for maintenance purposes. I would not be prepared to take over the dual carriageway until management come up with a realistic proposal to maintain the road."
Does this not read as while we get lots of money from Charlesland we don't want to have the cost of maintaining the road! Surely they should have no choice but to maintain it.

And Jones "Cllr. George Jones added an amendment to Cllr. Mitchell's proposal which called on the council to defer taking charge of the dual carriageway until they engage in discussions with the six management companies currently maintaining the estate to see if they would also fund the maintenance of the road"
This is crazy, why would the mgmt companies want to fund this?

matt-dublin

FirstIn wrote: »

Mitchell's says ; "'There are 5,000 people living in that estate. It's a big place with around €600,000 coming into the council from the household charge and rates from the factory there. It will cost a lot of money to maintain the dual carriageway. The Area Manager for Greystones keeps telling us he has no extra money for maintenance purposes. I would not be prepared to take over the dual carriageway until management come up with a realistic proposal to maintain the road."
Does this not read as while we get lots of money from Charlesland we don't want to have the cost of maintaining the road! Surely they should have no choice but to maintain it.

And Jones "Cllr. George Jones added an amendment to Cllr. Mitchell's proposal which called on the council to defer taking charge of the dual carriageway until they engage in discussions with the six management companies currently maintaining the estate to see if they would also fund the maintenance of the road"
This is crazy, why would the mgmt companies want to fund this?

That's the whole point we don't and won't be.

Charlie-Bravo

Grainne O'Loughlin and Tom Fortune are the other two councillors for Greystones. I don't know which way they voted. But I think it would be interesting to see how this amalgamation of the councils works out and how the voting for each area will proceed for the next local elections. So still worth while knowing who else voted No.

Cheeky Chops

It's like Simon Cowell and that god forsaken programme X Factor. When you think it is not possible for the farce to continue, a stunt is pulled that leaves you gobsmacked and incredulous. Big difference is I can choose to turn the TV off.

These councillors are just the gift that keeps on giving. They go to the opening of an envelope and have the neck to go to places like China (at our expense) to promote the area as the "most liveable community" (and yes George and Grainne, that one still pisses me off no end) yet they continually mess with our town and OUR MONEY. Reckless and ill thought out decisions and no accountabilty.

Disgrace, bloody disgrace.

Cerco

Looking forward to the May elections. Should be very interesting between this issue and the harbour issues.

pixbyjohn

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

It's like Simon Cowell and that god forsaken programme X Factor. When you think it is not possible for the farce to continue, a stunt is pulled that leaves you gobsmacked and incredulous. Big difference is I can choose to turn the TV off.

These councillors are just the gift that keeps on giving. They go to the opening of an envelope and have the neck to go to places like China (at our expense) to promote the area as the "most liveable community" (and yes George and Grainne, that one still pisses me off no end) yet they continually mess with our town and OUR MONEY. Reckless and ill thought out decisions and no accountabilty.

Disgrace, bloody disgrace.

Would you like the council to take over the maintenance and then discover they haven't the money to do the actual maintenance? Just wondering what you think?

Charlie-Bravo

Emotive subject this.

The council have money to do maintenance for the people living in Greystones. The problem is they will have to manage it better and Mitchell and Jones will have to accept that their grass might be cut once less a year, or the streetlights repaired a little later than expected. Why are people in Charlesland being held to ransom for this? The SAR is being badly managed at it is, I don't see there being any improvement when the council take it in charge but at least the town is paying for it, not just Charlesland!

Annasopra

astrofluff wrote: »

Emotive subject this.

The council have money to do maintenance for the people living in Greystones. The problem is they will have to manage it better and Mitchell and Jones will have to accept that their grass might be cut once less a year, or the streetlights repaired a little later than expected. Why are people in Charlesland being held to ransom for this? The SAR is being badly managed at it is, I don't see there being any improvement when the council take it in charge but at least the town is paying for it, not just Charlesland!

Why should Charlesland have to pay for it at all? Its a main thoroughfare between greystones and delgany, greystones and kilcoole, greystones and the N11

Annasopra

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Would you like the council to take over the maintenance and then discover they haven't the money to do the actual maintenance? Just wondering what you think?

I think before questions like that should be considered we would need to know the a lot more information;
How much money does it cost to maintain the road?
What is Wicklow County Councils overall budget like?
Are there potential savings within WCC budget?
Do private estates anywhere else in the country pay for the maintenance of public roads?

Langerland

I find this totally bizarre. The statements from the mentioned councillors are outrageous to say the least. It is the councils responsibility. The people of Charlesland and surrounding area are already paying for the maintenance of this and other roads.

http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2013/07/factual-position-on-local-property-tax/?cat=3

From the 1st of January 2014 the Minister for Finance will pay the Local Property Tax into the Local Government Fund and will be used to fund local services – this provision was included in the Local Property Tax Act first published on the 14th of December and debated in the Oireachtas in December 2012.
The Government has also announced its intention that 80% of the local property tax will be retained in the local authority area it is raised to fund local services in the area.

recedite

People are getting a bit hysterical here and failing to notice that the management companies are not funding the maintenance of Farrankelly Road. The developer (who originally made a killing selling the Charlesland properties at peak prices) has been paying. WCC will have to take over eventually, but they are in no hurry. I don't have much sympathy for either of them in their squabbling.

The Director of Services advised that there were two roads involved and that the dual carriage was not part of the housing development and therefore was not maintained by the management company but by Ballymore homes up to the present.

Cheeky Chops

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Would you like the council to take over the maintenance and then discover they haven't the money to do the actual maintenance? Just wondering what you think?

I'm no expert on this but I presumed public roads were paid by councils and the new taxes. For an housing estate to pay for a public road's maintenance is ridiculous. BTW is Eden Gate paying for their bit as well? Now which bit exactly is theirs???

pixbyjohn

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

I'm no expert on this but I presumed public roads were paid by councils and the new taxes. For an housing estate to pay for a public road's maintenance is ridiculous. BTW is Eden Gate paying for their bit as well? Now which bit exactly is theirs???

Read post by Recedite above

Cheeky Chops

recedite wrote: »

People are getting a bit hysterical here and failing to notice that the management companies are not funding the maintenance of Farrankelly Road. The developer (who originally made a killing selling the Charlesland properties at peak prices) has been paying. WCC will have to take over eventually, but they are in no hurry. I don't have much sympathy for either of them in their squabbling.

And Jones "Cllr. George Jones added an amendment to Cllr. Mitchell's proposal which called on the council to defer taking charge of the dual carriageway until they engage in discussions with the six management companies currently maintaining the estate to see if they would also fund the maintenance of the road"

Cheeky Chops

recedite wrote: »

People are getting a bit hysterical here and failing to notice that the management companies are not funding the maintenance of Farrankelly Road. The developer (who originally made a killing selling the Charlesland properties at peak prices) has been paying. WCC will have to take over eventually, but they are in no hurry. I don't have much sympathy for either of them in their squabbling.

Apathetic if we do nothing, hysterical if we complain ... sigh

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

People are getting a bit hysterical here and failing to notice that the management companies are not funding the maintenance of Farrankelly Road.

I don't think you understand this at all.

People are rightly anger that councillors are suggesting that IN THE FUTURE Charlesland residents should have to pay for maintenance of the road from Shoreline to Go Gym.

And frankly I see no hysteria - just justified anger at the Councillors

recedite

"Cllr. George Jones added an amendment to Cllr. Mitchell's proposal which called on the council to defer taking charge of the dual carriageway until they engage in discussions with the six management companies currently maintaining the estate to see if they would also fund the maintenance of the road"

OK so this is a quote from the Wicklow People. There is nothing about it on Clr Jones website and the official WCC council minutes for Sept are not published yet.

Even if its true, the chances of Charlesland residents voting to take on the maintenance of the Farrankelly Road are zero. And yet, as the motion seems to have been passed with this ridiculous amendment request bolted on, it looks like the management companies will have to be officially asked the stupid question.

Clr. Mitchell already had a proposal to stall the inevitable takeover by WCC a bit longer. Why would Clr Jones add an amendment on which only makes himself look bad?
Who knows. I saw him in action at the Greystones Town Council meeting last week (re the harbour, and as discussed on that other thread) and it was *bizarre*.
But nobody need worry that residents are funding or will ever fund the dual carriageway through the residents associations.
Funding will eventually come indirectly through the property tax, which every other Wicklow property owner will also be paying.

matt-dublin

recedite wrote: »

OK so this is a quote from the Wicklow People. There is nothing about it on Clr Jones website and the official WCC council minutes for Sept are not published yet.

Even if its true, the chances of Charlesland residents voting to take on the maintenance of the Farrankelly Road are zero. And yet, as the motion seems to have been passed with this ridiculous amendment request bolted on, it looks like the management companies will have to be officially asked the stupid question.

Clr. Mitchell already had a proposal to stall the inevitable takeover by WCC a bit longer. Why would Clr Jones add an amendment on which only makes himself look bad?
Who knows. I saw him in action at the Greystones Town Council meeting last week (re the harbour, and as discussed on that other thread) and it was *bizarre*.
But nobody need worry that residents are funding or will ever fund the dual carriageway through the residents associations.
Funding will eventually come indirectly through the property tax, which every other Wicklow property owner will also be paying.

We're not being asked to fund the farrenkelly road, only the link one.

The overall committee have received a letter from the WCC with the specific minutes detailing Jones' and Mitchell's proposals. What the Wicklow people says is 100% correct.

Annasopra

matt-dublin wrote: »

We're not being asked to fund the farrenkelly road, only the link one.

The overall committee have received a letter from the WCC with the specific minutes detailing Jones' and Mitchell's proposals. What the Wicklow people says is 100% correct.

Could you scan the minutes and attach them?

matt-dublin

mango salsa wrote: »

Could you scan the minutes and attach them?

I don't have them, just saw the letter

recedite

matt-dublin wrote: »

We're not being asked to fund the farrenkelly road, only the link one.

If the "spine road" is inside the estate and the dual carriageway outside the estate is Farrankelly Rd, what exactly is the "link road"?

markest

Farrankelly Rd is from N11 to Kilcoole roundabout. Link Rd is on to Mill Rd.