Silly rules question

BenEadir

Hi all,

My understanding is that you can declare any ball unplayable and take a one shot penalty. If that is correct can you declare a snap hook you find 70 yards from the tee box which has hit a bush and somehow crept back into a playable position "unplayable" and play the provisional drive you took which pinged 270 yards down the fairway leaving you a perfect wedge to a friendly pin position and a possible bogey rather than having to come out sideways on your second shot with with the original ball leaving yourself at least a 3 wood and wedge to the green for a possible bogey but more likely a double bogey?

My understanding has always been that if you find your original drive you have to play it regardless of how good yur provisional drive may have been but I'd appreciate confirmation of that.

Ben

shane0007

I would have thought if your first ball is found & is in play but you deem it unplayable, then you could only play a new ball from within 2 club lengths from where it lies, not nearer the hole. (Can you actually deem a playable ball unplayable?)
I not sure though. I would never deem a ball unplayable if it was playable. You could hit a cracker from there onto the green & be putting for a birdie.

BenEadir

shane0007 wrote: »

I would have thought if your first ball is found & is in play but you deem it unplayable, then you could only play a new ball from within 2 club lengths from where it lies, not nearer the hole.

I thought if your first ball is deemed unplayable you can drop a new ball anywhere on the line between where the ball came to rest and where it was struck from. In this case it was struck from the tee box so you can "go back" to the Tee box at the cost of a one shot penalty and play your third shot from there i.e. your provisional ball. Perhaps the subtle difference I need confirmation on is that if your first ball is lost you can obviously then play on with your provisional but if your first ball is found you are obliged to play it and if you declare it unplayable you must take a drop within two club lengths of where you found the ball no nearer the hole???

Ben

BenEadir

This indicates that you can declare your first drive unplayable (even if it would normally be considered playable) and go back to the tee box to hit your next shot for a one stroke penalty. http://www.barryrhodes.com/2009/03/rule-28-ball-unplayable.html

If my understanding of the text and video is correct you are therefore absolutely entitled to play your provisional if you favour it over your first ball albeit you will then be three off the tee.

Is that everyones understanding of the rule?

Ben

ernieprice

Rule 28 Unplayable Ball

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.
If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:
a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or
c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.
If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker.
When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.

A player can not decide to play his provisional instead of one of the above options. Once the original ball was found the provisional ball must be picked up.

DuckSlice

What he said

Russman

No, once you find your original ball, the provisional ceases to be a factor. You played the provisional in case your original was lost.

When you find the original you can indeed deem it unplayable but you'd have to take relief under the rules at that point and use one of the options (ie 2 club lengths, straight back keeping the point in line with the flag, or back to where you played the original from).

Barnaboy

Pretty sure you can't do that. Original ball is still in play. If unplayable then drop within 2 club lengths not nearer the hole. Only when ball is lost does a provisional ball come into play.

SnowDrifts

shane0007 wrote: »

Can you actually deem a playable ball unplayable?

Absolutely and as has already been pointed out, the player who hit the shot is the sole judge as to whether to take an unplayable.

Many players might be surprised to know that you could also take an unplayable after a bad putt. So for example, lets say you are putting downhill and race one past the hole... rolls off the green and into a horrible lie in a bunker, you can declare it unplayable and re-hit the putt (under penalty of 1 stoke of course).

Sandwlch

:eek:AAAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh:eek:

Before I came across boards.ie, while the occasional rules question or clarification would crop up on the course, I assumed that people playing golf knew the rules.

Boy have my eyes been opened. And its depressing. Starting to think there really does need to be some sort of compulsory test (and some refreshers thereafter) before people are allowed on a course, certainly for pencil and card rounds.

Is any other sport played by people with such a poor grasp of even the core rules ?

shane0007

Sandwlch wrote: »

:eek:AAAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh:eek:

Before I came across boards.ie, while the occasional rules question or clarification would crop up on the course, I assumed that people playing golf knew the rules.

Boy have my eyes been opened. And its depressing. Starting to think there really does need to be some sort of compulsory test (and some refreshers thereafter) before people are allowed on a course, certainly for pencil and card rounds.

Is any other sport played by people with such a poor grasp of even the core rules ?

It's not a straight forward or common scenario. In all the years of playing I can honestly say I have never ever come across anybody who had a playable ball in play & tried to declare that ball unplayable. To me, it's not sportsmanlike. IMO it's trying to find a ruling that the player could potentially take advantage of.

SnowDrifts

shane0007 wrote: »

It's not a straight forward or common scenario. In all the years of playing I can honestly say I have never ever come across anybody who had a playable ball in play & tried to declare that ball unplayable. To me, it's not sportsmanlike. IMO it's trying to find a ruling that the player could potentially take advantage of.

No.... it's just knowing the rules. Learn them yourself and you can do the same.

shane0007

SnowDrifts wrote: »

No.... it's just knowing the rules. Learn them yourself and you can do the same.

So you are saying you know every rule in the R & A rules?

SnowDrifts

shane0007 wrote: »

So you are saying you know every rule in the R & A rules?

No but I know 99% of the rules that arise week in,week out and for the ones I don't, I carry a copy of the rules in my bag.

shane0007

& what do you do about the rules that in the book that are not that clear?
How come professionals require dedicated ruling judges during tournaments? If it were that simple, surely they could just carry a copy of the rules & get on with it.

SnowDrifts

I really don't want to sound like a smart arse but the unplayable ball rule couldn't be clearer. I just can't see how any ambiguities could arise after reading it.

GreeBo

knowing that you can't choose between your first ball and a provisional is a basic rule of golf.
there are never two balls in play.
never.
ever.

shane0007

GreeBo wrote: »

knowing that you can't choose between your first ball and a provisional is a basic rule of golf.
there are never two balls in play.
never.
ever.

Well actually there is. If you are unsure of a ruling you can play two balls, electing the one that has the correct ruling upon confirmation. This would have 2 balls in play until such a time that one was eliminated.

shane0007

SnowDrifts wrote: »

I really don't want to sound like a smart arse but the unplayable ball rule couldn't be clearer. I just can't see how any ambiguities could arise after reading it.

Granted but I was referring to the many other scenarios that are not that clear.

GreeBo

shane0007 wrote: »

Well actually there is. If you are unsure of a ruling you can play two balls, electing the one that has the correct ruling upon confirmation. This would have 2 balls in play until such a time that one was eliminated.

you don't get to choose which ball though, which is the scenario you suggested at the start.
in any case both balls are not in play, one of them is, you just don't know which yet because you don't know the correct ruling.

Sandwlch

shane0007 wrote: »

Granted but I was referring to the many other scenarios that are not that clear.

I was not referring to the curious cases you see now and again in TV golf or ones that are written in the decisions book. But we seem to have too many questions from active golfers not knowing what are basic everyday events such as water hazards, immovable obstructions, provisional balls, pitchmarks, etc, and some even that should have your right to wield a golf club at all revoked of the "he dropped close to where the ball went out of bounds and added 1 stroke. I wasnt sure that was right, but we played on and he had 46 points" type. Criminal.

ernieprice

Even referees can get it wrong and sometimes will call for a second opinion. If I do not want to play 2 ball and get a ruling later I will play it as it lies if I am unsure. I would prefer to do this than take a drop and get disqualified.

Sandwlch

Other sports dont stop in the middle of a game with players querying "are you sure its only the goalie who can touch the ball with his hands", or "no thats OK. If the serve touches the net but does go over that wins the point", "of course you see it more in American football, but in rugby you can throw the ball forward also if you do it over head style with only one hand", etc.

shane0007

My point is I have a reasonable knowledge of the rules. I would always play as it lies as I think it is the fairest way. Many rules are not straight forward, such as the one where I posted about the green side sprinkler. The rule book is not that clear & another poster posted a link to an explanation. My educated guess was correct. Even being told I had a free drop, I aired on the side of caution & played it as it lied.
As I posted initially, I understood that the OP would have to drop from where he found the ball & deemed it unplayable. I understand the rules gave further options.
What I disagree with is being accused of just because I did not know the exact ruling, I am put into a category of perhaps somebody who shouldn't be playing the sport because of this or stay off the course until I undertake an intensive golf rules training course!

PARlance

Sandwlch wrote: »

Other sports dont stop in the middle of a game with players querying "are you sure its only the goalie who can touch the ball with his hands".

That's because they all carry the rules book underneath their shin guards.

BenEadir

Rule 28 states "If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:

a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played"

So you can go back to the tee box and hit your third from there. If that's the case is playing your provisional not the same thing (it was hit from the tee box) but just speeds up play?

I guess I can see there is a clear benefit in electing to play a provisional which you already know is in an advantageous position compared to declaring your ball unplayable and electing to go back to the tee box to hit your third shot which you don't already know the outcome of i.e. you could snap hook it again.

I think that's clarified it for me.

Thanks for the debate guys.

Ben

ernieprice

Sorry I am afraid not. The provisional was played in case your first ball was lost. Once your first ball was found then provisional ball was null and void and must be picked up. If you decide to use stroke and distance you must return to where you had hit the shot from and play a ball from there.

Golfgraffix

shane0007 wrote: »

I have never ever come across anybody who had a playable ball in play & tried to declare that ball unplayable. To me, it's not sportsmanlike. IMO it's trying to find a ruling that the player could potentially take advantage of.

Not sure I would agree here, the rule is there so as to allow the player to decide what is and is not playable in their opinion.

I had this arise in a recent match at Portmarnock Links, was on the edge of the 4th green in 2, I opted to use an 8 iron to get some forward roll up the hill but thinned it into the left pot bunker, as it only barely rolled in I was up against the face and would have to hit out back down the fairway. So I elected to call it unplayable and replayed from where I mis hit the 8 but this time with the putter and made the up and down. My opponent was not overly happy with the half but did say FairPlay for using the rules correctly.

I can say without any fear of being accused of sportsmanship that I did nothing wrong.

J

ForeRight

@golfgraffix

That's excellent stuff and you did absolutely nothing unsportsman like.

Far too many people on the course know all about the penalties and rules that go against you when in fact there are twice as many rules that can help.
They don't have any problem informing you when you are penalised so use the rules to your advantage when possible.

BenEadir

ernieprice wrote: »

Sorry I am afraid not. The provisional was played in case your first ball was lost. Once your first ball was found then provisional ball was null and void and must be picked up. If you decide to use stroke and distance you must return to where you had hit the shot from and play a ball from there.

Thanks for clarifying Ernieprice, I appreciate it.

Ben

slave1

These threads are great, none of us know all the rules (and rulings) so great to see them expand our knowledge, if I putt off the green like graffix then I know what I'll be doing!

Seve OB

Sandwlch wrote: »

but in rugby you can throw the ball forward also if you do it over head style with only one hand", etc.

Can you????

GreeBo

slave1 wrote: »

These threads are great, none of us know all the rules (and rulings) so great to see them expand our knowledge, if I putt off the green like graffix then I know what I'll be doing!

Nobody is arguing that you should know *all* the rules, thats why they give a free book. But to not know the most common ones is just lazy.
There is nothing complicated about the correct ruling 99% of the time on the golf course.

BenEadir

GreeBo wrote: »

to not know the most common ones is just lazy.
There is nothing complicated about the correct ruling 99% of the time on the golf course.

For the truly lazy amongst us I recommend subscribing to the 99 rules of golf as illustrated one rule per week by email from this website - http://www.rhodesrulesschool.com

One email a week with a rule illustrated and some Q&A. Makes a very nice way to absorb the rules. Only problem is it takes two years!!

Ben

shane0007

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Not sure I would agree here, the rule is there so as to allow the player to decide what is and is not playable in their opinion.

I had this arise in a recent match at Portmarnock Links, was on the edge of the 4th green in 2, I opted to use an 8 iron to get some forward roll up the hill but thinned it into the left pot bunker, as it only barely rolled in I was up against the face and would have to hit out back down the fairway. So I elected to call it unplayable and replayed from where I mis hit the 8 but this time with the putter and made the up and down. My opponent was not overly happy with the half but did say FairPlay for using the rules correctly.

I can say without any fear of being accused of sportsmanship that I did nothing wrong.

J

If you read my post I said I have never seen somebody declare a PLAYABLE ball UNPLAYABLE. I meant just because a ball has a bad lie as in the rough, etched. I would feel that would be unsportsmanlike. If a ball is buried up against a tree, etc or something similar that is a different case.

SnowDrifts

But Shane how can following the rules of golf be unsportsmanlike? It's not like they are getting off with free relief - they get a 1 stroke penalty.

shane0007

I see your point. It is indeed very valid & I am most likely wrong. It's just I come from a "get on with it" background. It was just the suggestion of the OP with wanting to play the better provisional than the found original ball. I would never have even thought of trying to pick the better ball. I would have just picked up the provisional & got on with hitting my original ball.

Golfgraffix

shane0007 wrote: »

If you read my post I said I have never seen somebody declare a PLAYABLE ball UNPLAYABLE. I meant just because a ball has a bad lie as in the rough, etched. I would feel that would be unsportsmanlike. If a ball is buried up against a tree, etc or something similar that is a different case.

I understood it perfectly, in my example my ball was fully playable, I just couldn't get to the pin from where I was. Weighing it all up I felt I had a better chance of making bogey from the drop rather thzn from the sand.

J

GreeBo

shane0007 wrote: »

It was just the suggestion of the OP with wanting to play the better provisional than the found original ball. I would never have even thought of trying to pick the better ball. I would have just picked up the provisional & got on with hitting my original ball.

which is exactly why the rules dont allow this. You dont get to choose which is better, you get to choose to go back and try again.

Redzah

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Not sure I would agree here, the rule is there so as to allow the player to decide what is and is not playable in their opinion.

I had this arise in a recent match at Portmarnock Links, was on the edge of the 4th green in 2, I opted to use an 8 iron to get some forward roll up the hill but thinned it into the left pot bunker, as it only barely rolled in I was up against the face and would have to hit out back down the fairway. So I elected to call it unplayable and replayed from where I mis hit the 8 but this time with the putter and made the up and down. My opponent was not overly happy with the half but did say FairPlay for using the rules correctly.

I can say without any fear of being accused of sportsmanship that I did nothing wrong.

J

Very interesting use of the rules. I'm no rules expert at all but I always thought an unplayable lie taken in the bunker had to still be dropped in the bunker

Update: just checked it there and you were spot on, very interesting use of the rules.

SnowDrifts

Redzah wrote: »

Very interesting use of the rules. I'm no rules expert at all but I always thought an unplayable lie taken in the bunker had to still be dropped in the bunker

The 3rd option allows for the shot to be replayed, even if the ball lies in a bunker. Check out the final paragraph of rule 28.

ForeRight

Redzah wrote: »

Very interesting use of the rules. I'm no rules expert at all but I always thought an unplayable lie taken in the bunker had to still be dropped in the bunker

Yes you do.

In this case graffix used his other option with an unplayable lie which was to go back and play the shot again under penalty of one stroke.


It's a situation which would not arise much as normally when facing an unplayable you will be going back a huge distance to play again. 99% of the time you will use the option of taking a drop two club lengths from the ball. In this case he would have had to drop in the bunker as you say but he was cute and knew the rules that help a player.

As I said earlier in this thread everyone knows the penalties in the game when in fact a huge amount of rules help you but not everyone knows them.

shane0007

Am I missing something here.
I am reading Rule 28 very last paragraph:

"If your ball is in a bunker you may proceed as above, except that if you are dropping back on a line or within two club-lengths, you must drop a ball in the bunker."

ForeRight

shane0007 wrote: »

Am I missing something here.
I am reading Rule 28 very last paragraph:

"If your ball is in a bunker you may proceed as above, except that if you are dropping back on a line or within two club-lengths, you must drop a ball in the bunker."

You may proceed as above it says.

Above that paragraph it says you can go back to where you played the original shot under penalty

shane0007

ForeRight wrote: »

You may proceed as above it says.

Above that paragraph it says you can go back to where you played the original shot under penalty

That's only if it is not in a bunker. It clearly states that if you are in a bunker & it uses the word "must" drop a ball in the bunker. It couldn't be clearer.

SnowDrifts

Just read the rule - it just couldn't be clearer. Sigh.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:

a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker.

Look specifically what is in bold.

shane0007

This is what I am seeing from the R & A Rules App, which does not mention your wordings:

SnowDrifts

It is (stupidly) worded differently alright Shane but it means the exact same thing. When it says "you may proceed as above" - it means you can avail of the 3 options listed above.

It goes on to note however that if you obtain relief by using option 2 or 3, it must be in the bunker.

But you still have option 1.... to replay the shot.

shane0007

I got it now. My one is not so clear except when I read it a few times! Yours is much clearer.

So ok, I'm banished from the course until I learn the rules....

SnowDrifts

Not at all - guaranteed you will be able to advise others on rule 28 now! Onwards and upwards

shane0007

Luckily I wasn't playing with you & wrestled you back into the bunker until you dropped it back in said bunker. Now that would have been embarrassing to explain to the Rules Committee!