Why are motorists so powerless? (Bit ranty!)

_Kaiser_

Morning all,

So I'm reading through the threads on the first few pages here and a lot of them are about the same old things...

- Fuel (prices, quality)
- Sales (VRT, after-sales service, dodgy dealers, prices etc)
- Motor Tax
- Roads
- Enforcement (or more accurately, the lack thereof)

.. and I have to ask - WHY does one of (if not THE) largest groups in the country (ie: motorists!) put up with it?

We have unions and lobby groups for everything else that all get their 2c in to the powers that be (look at SIMI and how they've managed to mess things up a few times now), why is there nothing for the ODM (Ordinary Decent Motorist) - I'm genuinely amazed that some enterprising professional lobby group or union hasn't tried to set something up.

Think about it.. because of the way our farcical public transport system works (or doesn't work!), most people in the country drive and in many cases, households own at least 2 cars. Yet every week there's threads here about the issues above and yet nothing ever seems to get done about it. We pay so much in motoring-related taxes and yet what do we have to show for it? A few (tolled!) motorways and bypasses?

Personally I've always done things "the right way" - I pay my taxes, my car is always taxed and insured and NCT'd on time, my bills are always paid and I didn't take the banks up on their "free money" offers in the Good Ole Days... but despite all that I'm still paying for those who aren't as responsible/gullible (delete as applicable) and I'm finding it increasingly hard to justify it in a country of chancers at EVERY level that seem to get away with it - unless they happen to be in the "average working Joe" category, in which case the full force of the law is applied to keep us in line.

It wouldn't take much to force action either.. if farmers, trucks and taxis can block the streets when it suits them, how much chaos would be caused by a few dozen cars blocking up the quays or M50 at rush hour?
Normally I would reject such "drastic measures", but it's equally clear to me that unless people start standing up for themselves our "leaders" will continue to turn the screw at every opportunity to ensure the gravy train continues at the top and pay for those at the top and bottom of the tax net - or who are outside it entirely.

For a country with such a "rebellious" history and where every "nationalist" will be out celebrating the Rising in a few years time, it seems to me that we're more like a nation of docile sheep that can be led and herded over a cliff if it took our "betters" fancy.

So what is it then ? Is it the Irish "I'm alright Jack so feck the rest of ye" mentality, is it pure laziness, or is it that we're quite happy to be bent over every time the budget rolls around so we can then come on here and whinge about the latest tax hike or fuel increases?

Are we really beyond hope at this stage?

Shane Fitz

Is the AA not a motorist lobby group?

mickdw

It would be difficult to get motorists singing from the same hymn sheet tough. As motoring isn't an occupation, people are unlikely to come together to protest etc. If 100 cars blocked dublin streets, there would be another 1000 car drivers giving out about not being able to get to work so it would never be effective.

S28382

Motor Tax is the killer in this country. Most Irish people have an obsession with smaller ltr cars and those who drive anything above 2ltr get unfairly screwed. So off all the problems motorist encounter its Motor tax that needs a complete and fair overhaul.

biko

Motorists aren't really a homogeneous group and as opposed to motorbike riders we don't feel any particular connection with each other.
But you have small groups like The Alliance of British Drivers that try some lobbying.

Red Kev

Shane Fitz wrote: »

Is the AA not a motorist lobby group?

It's a lobby group for it's members, that claims to represent the ordinary motorist but is generally very far off the mark and utterly ineffective no matter how often Conor Faughan comes bleating onto Morning Ireland.

The German equivalent, the ADAC has 18,000,000 members but has relatively little influence in Berlin. On the other hand the VDA (association of the automotive industry) has massive influence on policy implementation of successive German governments and on it's permanent Civil Service.

No Pants

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I didn't take the banks up on their "free money" offers in the Good Ole Days... but despite all that I'm still paying for those who aren't as responsible/gullible

It's amazing the way that almost everyone on Boards claims that.

Kaiser2000

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I didn't take the banks up on their "free money" offers in the Good Ole Days... but despite all that I'm still paying for those who aren't as responsible/gullible (delete as applicable) and I'm finding it increasingly hard to justify it in a country of chancers at EVERY level that seem to get away with it

We're paying mostly for the bailout of Anglo the Big Boys bank, the Fianna Fail buddy bank. They weren't going to allow their buddies to loose billions.

The rest of the banks are average man's banks, most of them anyway. So should we have allowed everyone's savings/pensions to go too ? imagine all your money gone ?

I got a mortgage that was within my means that I could pay back and fair play to Permanent TSB, I wouldn't have got a cent more.

However those that have run into difficulty are those who could afford to pay back and lost their jobs through no fault of their own.

It isn't fair to judge others as spending free money that the tax payer has to pay back, the fact they have fallen on hard times is to blame and the rotten to the core Government and bankers.

we will always have high taxes as we are a tiny country with a tiny population with a tiny economy and Fianna (Fails) tactics of reducing taxes to get vote could never have been sustainable long term.

Now that we have to introduce property tax and water charges will mean there won't be the necessity to continue to screw the motorist, this means that taxes won't come down on cars at all but should help greatly to not increase them as they are far too high and fuel tax. We should have had property tax years ago, and Fianna fail eliminated water charges before, another way to get votes.

We could throw all the 450,000 people off the dole to save several Billion and throw them onto the streets, we could eliminate free health care, children's allowance and the old age pension.

If we want ultra poor people, begging and in poor health living on the streets along with thousands of children going hungry with no shelter, mothers having to resort to prostitution to feed their Children, disease rampant. Then lets reduce taxes.

The only way for us to survive and pay back the banks is through decades of high taxes, and a Government that can efficiently run the country. We need more job creation and we need big companies to pay more.

This or strike oil in the Atlantic !

thecomedian

No Pants wrote: »

It's amazing the way that almost everyone on Boards claims that.

It's probably an age group thing. I'd be in the same boat but if I was 10 years older maybe I would have been under more pressure to borrow.
Even though there are lots of motorists, the majority don't care, the will just go for the cheapest option, lowest tax.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Deleted User wrote: »

We could throw all the 450,000 people off the dole to save several Billion and throw them onto the streets, we could eliminate free health care, children's allowance and the old age pension.

!

Free healthcare? What country is this?

Last I checked there was a €100 admittance charge to A&E. And a per night charge. So for the working poor that dont have a medical card or health insurance, where is their free healthcare? :mad:

Agreed on most else of what you said totally btw

Soarer

Why the government keep supporting the new car industry, turning cars into disposable items, is beyond me.

There needs to be a complete overhaul of the tax system. If I was in charge.....
- Road tax would only apply to cars 10 years and newer.
- Flat rate of €300 on a new car, reducing by €30 every year until the car is 10 years old.
- Up to 5c tax per litre on fuel. The more you drive, the more you pay.

Someone should send the Bangernomics thread to the government. The amount of big engined cars that'll end up scrapped due to the road tax is sickening. Things like this XJ. You'll buy that car for a lot less than one years' road tax. Ridiculous.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

I think just a standardised rate (or even a fair increasing rate, ie linear progression) would be a lot more fair than the current motor tax system


Anything above 2.0 is a ripoff and anything above 2.5 is eye gouginginly expensive.

(ot - that jag looks beautiful. Only in ireland would that be sub €2k)

visual

No Pants wrote: »

It's amazing the way that almost everyone on Boards claims that.

Not everyone bought a new house and car on credit expecting foolishly the banks to take a hit and then tax payers bail out the banks once again.

KwackerJack

Its a joke.

In most countries the biggest issue with buying a car is the initial cost and daily running. Over here its road tax!

Anytime my previous cars were for sale the first questions was 'is it taxed and how much is it'

But were simply couch warriors in this country and we will never change!

Soarer

Ichisaq wrote: »

Only in ireland would that be sub €2k

And almost €2k in road tax!

Supergurrier

Its a culture we have here and its not helped by smug low tax brand new car drivers saying its all fine and dandy.

One of the most damaging things to the sale of new cars in Ireland is vrt

Chris_Heilong

Just a bit of art I did.

Ichisaq

Ichisaq wrote: »

Free healthcare? What country is this?

Last I checked there was a €100 admittance charge to A&E. And a per night charge. So for the working poor that dont have a medical card or health insurance, where is their free healthcare? :mad:

Agreed on most else of what you said totally btw

Yes of course free (or almost) as I meant to say to those on medical card.

Supergurrier

Supergurrier wrote: »

One of the most damaging things to the sale of new cars in Ireland is vrt

That's why I will never again buy a new car in Ireland. There is already a 23% vat charge which is already too high.

Supergurrier

The but if tax was low big cars wouldn't be so cheap argument is a pointless one.

Its based on the assumption everyone keeps their car for a year or less.

If vrt wasn't such a joke you could just buy an example from the UK.

I know I wouldn't have minded a grand or more in the initial purchase of my car when I had money in hand instead of the guts of a grand and a half a year on a tax that does nothing to effect the roads I drive on.

That and better spec would be more likely

Red Kev

KwackerJack wrote: »

But were simply couch warriors in this country and we will never change!

You can protest until the cows come home, it won't change anything. And some violent protests have solved nothing either.

The only way is to forget about it and move on.

Supergurrier

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You can protest until the cows come home, it won't change anything. And some violent protests have solved nothing either.

The only way is to forget about it and move on.

Is that yoresalf in the pic above ?

Nice couch

galwaytt

Shane Fitz wrote: »

Is the AA not a motorist lobby group?

No. It started out that way 100 years ago. But it was then sold off and privatised. It's now a commercial organisation with more responsibilities to its shareholders.

RandomAccess

Perhaps one reason people find it difficult to protest in Ireland is that we have a lot of unsavoury groups who like to hijack these campaigns for their own political means. Republicans or Public sector unions for example, with various other politicians bringing up the rear.

Ideally a protest should be explicitly apolitical so that this cannot happen.
Professional groups should really not be involved at all, they are too easily corruptible, also one need to keep the power distributed somehow so no one faction can seize control but then we also have to manage to maintain a coherent argument to avoid splinter groups.

I don't think motorists are any more powerless than most people in Irish society.
So far the only groups to have demonstrated successfully are pensioners followed by, pro-life, pro-choice groups.
I think from that one of the main things is the protestors are from demographics who have a lot of time on their hands.

Personally I would be interested in getting into a political lobby group, I don't think the faux choices we are given in various referenda are well defined enough that people can have an informed opinion, they just placate peoples need for democratic input. I've found that venting on an Internet forum can be a spur to considering getting involved in reform of various areas of interest.

Chris_Heilong

Didnt Australia get a motorist Enthusiast Party elected recently

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Motoring_Enthusiast_Party

Victor

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

- Fuel (prices, quality)
- Sales (VRT, after-sales service, dodgy dealers, prices etc)
- Motor Tax
- Roads
- Enforcement (or more accurately, the lack thereof)

Two certainties in life - death and taxes. If the tax wasn't on cars, it would be on something else.

Much of the price of fuel is made up of taxes. If you wan to spend less on fuel then drive a smaller car, drive less, (generally) drive slower, drive smoother.

Roads - we have about 22 metres of road per person, four times what they have in Britain.Someone has to pay for them. Irish people (lie many others) don't want to pay.

.. and I have to ask - WHY does one of (if not THE) largest groups in the country (ie: motorists!) put up with it?

But motorists aren't a group. Motoring is the dominant discourse, but there is no shared identity, other than in an 'us and them' kind of way. For every motorist giving out about pedestrians or cyclists, there is another motorist giving out about motorists.

Think about it.. because of the way our farcical public transport system works (or doesn't work!), most people in the country drive and in many cases, households own at least 2 cars.

38% of households in Dublin have no car. 41% have only one car. Only 21% have two or more.

Nationally, there are 1,882,550 cars taxed as such (excluding hearses, taxis, etc.). There are 2,004,175 dwellings (some vacant), so the average is about 1 per household.

Yet every week there's threads here about the issues above and yet nothing ever seems to get done about it. We pay so much in motoring-related taxes and yet what do we have to show for it? A few (tolled!) motorways and bypasses?

We have substantially more motorway per capita than Germany.

It wouldn't take much to force action either.. if farmers, trucks and taxis can block the streets when it suits them, how much chaos would be caused by a few dozen cars blocking up the quays or M50 at rush hour?

Why target the punters, target the politicians.

Shane Fitz wrote: »

Is the AA not a motorist lobby group?

I thought it was a private company that sells insurance and breakdown cover, etc.

KwackerJack wrote: »

I'm most countries the biggest issue with buying a far is the initial cost and daily running. Over here its road tax!

The grass is greener and all that.

KwackerJack

Victor wrote: »

The grass is greener and all that.

Very true but why settle for that??

Why can't we the people, make the grass greener in our own country?

Victor

Just one more point, perhaps motorists are powerless because they have bought into motoring?

In developing countries (and here to a large degree), cars are for 'important' people. It is a life objective of many to have a car. But in reality, all your are buying into is cashflow for car and oil producers. Cars don't necessarily free you, they enslave you. Over a lifetime, motoring can cost as much as housing.

KwackerJack wrote: »

Very true but why settle for that??

Why can't we the people, make the grass greener in our own country?

Because it would mean killing the flowers.

In many countries, you have to pay the full whack for health costs when you are sick. No money / health insurance? Well you can die on the side of the road then.

In many countries, there is no welfare system, not even a pension.

Want your kids to be educated? €€€

Want to use the motorway from Cork to Dublin? €20 please.

Want security and justice? Ha!

Lose your job and have debts? Go to prison.

Want clean air? Emigrate.

Want surfaced roads? Build it yourself.

KwackerJack

Jasus the road tax went up some whack :0

http://cars.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/car/5398351

Eireann81

Victor wrote: »

Roads - we have about 22 metres of road per person, four times what they have in Britain.Someone has to pay for them. Irish people (lie many others) don't want to pay.

I would be delighted if my motor tax was four times as much as I would be paying on the same car in Britain.

Supergurrier

Supergurrier wrote: »

Is that yoresalf in the pic above ?

Nice couch

Indeed it's not, I vent my protest in the valet box where it matters most !

ex_infantry

can anyone remember the group MIJAG(motor insurance justice action group) that was formed a few years ago and fought the insurers for cheap car insurance for young people!!
where did they disappear to??

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Eireann81 wrote: »

I would be delighted if my motor tax was four times as much as I would be paying on the same car in Britain.

Ditto

hi5

The truth is in Ireland we have it easy.
I have two relatives both in their 30's never worked a day in their lives on the social, and both of them are able to run cars, what would they protest against?
Over half the population in Ireland are on some form of social welfare, your not going to bite the hand that feeds you.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1026476.shtml

Supergurrier

/Yawn

hi5

hi5 wrote: »

I have two relatives both in their 30's never worked a day in their lives on the social, and both of them are able to run cars.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1026476.shtml

I know 2 people on the dole since about 2001, I've never seen them able to afford cars.

We all know some, however they are the minority and we should not tar all the unemployed with the one brush that they are spongers, lazy bast$&£.

Facts are there was almost full employment in the boom, the fact 450,000 Odd are unemployed since the bust or on and off since the bust if no fault of theirs, don't forget that many have emigrated.

KwackerJack

hi5 wrote: »

The truth is in Ireland we have it easy.
I have two relatives both in their 30's never worked a day in their lives on the social, and both of them are able to run cars, what would they protest against?
Over half the population in Ireland are on some form of social welfare, your not going to bite the hand that feeds you.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1026476.shtml[/QUOTE]

But what car? Its hardly a 3.0 lexus or range rover!

Being in his 30's and the guess its probably a small cc car so being in the dole may mean nothing.


Id love the old model Lexus GS300 99/00. They can be bough for 1000/2000 but the tax is €1800+. Its madness that the road tax is more than the cars value!!

Chris_Heilong

Things have to change, thats a fact, but how?

Soon enough we will be like China in the 60's were almost everyone were on bicycles.

The price of everything is going up but peoples wages arent so in reality we are getting poorer as a country every year.

I wonder if Toyota opened a factory here would the cars they build and sold here be VRT exempt.

Chris_Heilong

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

I wonder if Toyota opened a factory here would the cars they build and sold here be VRT exempt.

No, instead, Toyota would be exempt from paying taxes !

georgefalls

It costs the state a fortune chasing tax dodgers.
Road tax should be abolished, but not the disc displayed in the car.
You get the disc for free every year, but only when you present a valid ins cert, and NCT cert.
There'd be no excuse for not displaying a disc, unless you had one of the other missing.

Put 5c on a litre, then if you are using the road, you are paying for it.

KwackerJack

georgefalls wrote: »

It costs the state a fortune chasing tax dodgers.
Road tax should be abolished, but not the disc displayed in the car.
You get the disc for free every year, but only when you present a valid ins cert, and NCT cert.
There'd be no excuse for not displaying a disc, unless you had one of the other missing.

Put 5c on a litre, then if you are using the road, you are paying for it.

Excellent Idea...always thought the same but our useless suits don't have the brains to think of something like that!

georgefalls

georgefalls wrote: »

Put 5c on a litre, then if you are using the road, you are paying for it.

5C you're joking ?

For me doing 20 K miles a year @ 60 mpg Petrol would have to be close to the 2 Euro barrier in order to make up the €500 a year I pay in road tax.

So if you do 10,000 miles a year it would have to be much higher to make up the shortfall.

The way it is now the Government get a tonne of cash whether the car moves or not. Do people honestly think they will change this lucrative cash generating process ?

I need 1481 average litres for 20K miles a year @ 61 mpg ish.

That's a cost of 2310 Euro's. average 1.56 per litre.

Add 500 tax that becomes 2,810 Euro's.

Petrol would need to be at about 1.90 per litre for me to do 20K miles a year and pay back the 500 Euro road tax.

So the question is, how do you get the money back from the low mileage driver ? charge 3 euro's at the pump ?

See you can't charge me 3 Euro's or I won't be driving any more. Granted there are a lot of cars in the low tax bracket now but there is a significant amount of cars that are pre 2008.

The only way if you really want to do what's fair is to track every single vehicle and charge per km. Now imagine the cost of that and the cost per km could mean I pay far higher than I do now.

Caliden

Deleted User wrote: »

5C you're joking ?

For me doing 20 K miles a year @ 60 mpg Petrol would have to be close to the 2 Euro barrier in order to make up the €500 a year I pay in road tax.

So if you do 10,000 miles a year it would have to be much higher to make up the shortfall.

The way it is now the Government get a tonne of cash whether the car moves or not. Do people honestly think they will change this lucrative cash generating process ?

I need 1481 average litres for 20K miles a year @ 61 mpg ish.

That's a cost of 2310 Euro's. average 1.56 per litre.

Add 500 tax that becomes 2,810 Euro's.

Petrol would need to be at about 1.90 per litre for me to do 20K miles a year and pay back the 500 Euro road tax.

So the question is, how do you get the money back from the low mileage driver ? charge 3 euro's at the pump ?

See you can't charge me 3 Euro's or I won't be driving any more. Granted there are a lot of cars in the low tax bracket now but there is a significant amount of cars that are pre 2008.

The only way if you really want to do what's fair is to track every single vehicle and charge per km. Now imagine the cost of that and the cost per km could mean I pay far higher than I do now.

20c a litre would be about right in my opinion. Not everyone gets 60mpg and I'd say the average is about half of that.

Mc Love

VRT should be abolished more so than the ludicrous motor tax

Lu Tze

Caliden wrote: »

20c a litre would be about right in my opinion. Not everyone gets 60mpg and I'd say the average is about half of that.

Plus all the administration savings, no need for motor tax offices etc.

galwaytt

Deleted User wrote: »

Indeed it's not, I vent my protest in the valet box where it matters most !

Meh- 'valet' box ?

Deleted User wrote: »

See you can't charge me 3 Euro's or I won't be driving any more. .

Now now, you're just being silly - going to give up working/eating/living/paying the mortgage over the motortax/fuel price ? tsk tsk, don't think so !! :pac:

georgefalls wrote: »

It costs the state a fortune chasing tax dodgers.
Road tax should be abolished, but not the disc displayed in the car.
You get the disc for free every year, but only when you present a valid ins cert, and NCT cert.
There'd be no excuse for not displaying a disc, unless you had one of the other missing.

Put 5c on a litre, then if you are using the road, you are paying for it.

5c is nowhere near enough to wipe out motor tax, simples.

As for the rest - wtf do we still need an actual disc (+admin of it et) at all for ? They have ANPR and Pulse - let AGS & Co tell you if it's taxed or not, not the other way around. (no need to worry about forged/moved discs then, either).

Caliden

Lu Tze wrote: »

Plus all the administration savings, no need for motor tax offices etc.

'Re-distribution' of public workers, only a good thing in my opinion. Push the online tax renewal methods.

The tax on fuel is a catch all for tax evaders and tourists and frees up Garda resources when it comes to policing no tax.

galwaytt

galwaytt wrote: »

Meh- 'valet' box ?

Now now, you're just being silly - going to give up working/eating/living/paying the mortgage over the motortax/fuel price ? tsk tsk, don't think so !! :pac:

Now you know I meant Ballot box ? :P

I probably wouldn't give up working as I have no choice to pay but I think it can only get so expensive, if it got to the stage where I had to pay 5 grand a year for just fuel then at that stage it would be a lot cheaper to move and they would be at a loss because of what I would be spending on fuel.

S28382

So when are we all going out to protest in Kildare St.

It is strange that there never has been a nationwide protest or gathering in protest at the Motor Tax system it really seems as if they screw us just because nothing is ever done about changing it.

Has any group ever lobbied the government about the issue of Motor Tax?

Wexfordian

Taxing fuel is a perfectly good plan, with one huge issue. Fuel purchasing is mobile, administrative Motor Tax isn't.