Turbo, HR etc

Chartsengrafs

The Winter thread got me thinking, I plan on spending some proper time on the turbo over the winter, but I don't have a PM. Is a HR monitor necessary; is time on the turbo a waste of time otherwise? And by HR monitor I mean, buying one, while also making proper use of the thing.
I spent a lot of time on the turbo during the spring but it felt unfocussed.
I have a Garmin 405 so I assume I could attach something to that

Oryx

I couldnt use a turbo properly without some kind of stat to keep and eye on. Using RPE tends to be a bit too woolly. I only have hr and cad to work off, but at my level, its enough. Ive toyed with the idea of getting a tacx flow with pm, but thats just throwing money at something that could progress a lot further with just hard work at the moment.

I used to use a 405 with its hr on the turbo, along with a cycle computer. It worked just fine.

pgibbo

Rather than getting a tacx flow which is quite pricey, I'd be inclined to try and throw an extra few quid in to the pot and get a PM. At least then you could have it for races.

RPE has it's place as it's good to have multiple reference points. With the HR strap for the 405 you could use HR and RPE to guide sessions. Be warned though, Garmin HR can be a tad unreliable....enter Mr Polar (aka AKW)

BTH

You defo need some measure of effort for your turbo sessions. Up to now I've used HR to guide my sessions, and from hours of turboing I know what speed/cadence I should be hitting for a given HR and when I'm off that mark I usually know why.

I race by RPE and ignore all numbers, so I don't think I'd get much out of a PM. But I have been using trainerroad to record my turbo sessions (only looking at it post session) for the past few months, and reckon I'll use it for this winter as it has seemed reliable and consistent thus far.

tunney

You need a big kick ass fan, one with MASSIVE blades. A desk fan is no good.

Otherwise the hard work is just dispersing heat.

sconhome

pgibbo wrote: »

enter Mr Polar (aka AKW)

Undergoing a name change at the moment to Mr. Pol-min to reflect my internal turmoil.

As someone who has made a progression from:
training RPE > training RPE + HR (Polar) > training RPE + HR + PM (Polar)
I think you need to have some metric to keep an eye on rather than just speed and cadence. Otherwise how do you measure progress?

Also for me November - February is all about base work, all HR guided and then build the frequency of power based sessions through the spring. (Still work to PM in the winter but not as focussed on it).

IMHO a decent HR is the first step, you could add a HR strap to your 405, but you might be better off with a cheap FT1 or FT4 Polar that will at least be accurate

Enter the PM boys......

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

You need a big kick ass fan, one with MASSIVE blades. A desk fan is no good.

Otherwise the hard work is just dispersing heat.

Have asked on Sufferfest about this one.

tunney

amphkingwest wrote: »

Undergoing a name change at the moment to Mr. Pol-min to reflect my internal turmoil.

As someone who has made a progression from:
training RPE > training RPE + HR (Polar) > training RPE + HR + PM (Polar)
I think you need to have some metric to keep an eye on rather than just speed and cadence. Otherwise how do you measure progress?

Also for me November - February is all about base work, all HR guided and then build the frequency of power based sessions through the spring. (Still work to PM in the winter but not as focussed on it).

IMHO a decent HR is the first step, you could add a HR strap to your 405, but you might be better off with a cheap FT1 or FT4 Polar that will at least be accurate

Enter the PM boys......

Or you could get the bleeding edge latest product from Polar

tunney

amphkingwest wrote: »

Have asked on Sufferfest about this one.

That looks alot like a Garmin on your bars Mr Polar

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

That looks alot like a Garmin on your bars Mr Polar

Not mine, I only added a baby fan to my cave this year. On the look out for the big dogs

Chartsengrafs

Thanks folks. Big fan was already on the list, will definitely get a HRM so, Polar perhaps if not a Garmin strap.

joey100

Another +1 for trainer road. Uses virtual power, not sure how accurate it is but it gives you something to measure improvement against. I've seen good improvements using it, find it makes it easier to get on the turbo. Think it's around $100 for the year or $10 a month (usually works out around €7).

tunney

joey100 wrote: »

Another +1 for trainer road. Uses virtual power, not sure how accurate it is but it gives you something to measure improvement against. I've seen good improvements using it, find it makes it easier to get on the turbo. Think it's around $100 for the year or $10 a month (usually works out around €7).

I tried it for a while on my CT, binned it as I found the supplied sessions not to my liking and the workout creator weak. But loads seem to love it and unless you are presently using some ERG software I can see what it would be a killer app for most.

Kurt Godel

Basster wrote: »

The Winter thread got me thinking, I plan on spending some proper time on the turbo over the winter, but I don't have a PM. Is a HR monitor necessary; is time on the turbo a waste of time otherwise? And by HR monitor I mean, buying one, while also making proper use of the thing.
I spent a lot of time on the turbo during the spring but it felt unfocussed.
I have a Garmin 405 so I assume I could attach something to that

Just to answer this point, I do 90% of my bike work on the turbo, without PM, HRMs, or any indications of effort besides to size of the sweat puddle. I'm not saying for a second that its better to train without them, but I am saying that you can make huge bike gains using just the turbo and perceived hard effort. Sufferfest vids helped me focus, and they can be utilised to good effect using only the gears of the bike.

bryangiggsy

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Just to answer this point, I do 90% of my bike work on the turbo, without PM, HRMs, or any indications of effort besides to size of the sweat puddle. I'm not saying for a second that its better to train without them, but I am saying that you can make huge bike gains using just the turbo and perceived hard effort. Sufferfest vids helped me focus, and they can be utilised to good effect using only the gears of the bike.

Very true a good indicator of a sufficiently hard turbo session is that puddle !!! If your shorts aren't soaked through with sweat then you might not be working hard enough

Carpenter

Has anyone 1 off these http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/minoura-live-ride-540-trainer/rp-prod88108

tunney

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Very true a good indicator of a sufficiently hard turbo session is that puddle !!! If your shorts aren't soaked through with sweat then you might not be working hard enough

Or you have just wasted your entire session by doing it in a poorly ventilated room with inadequate cooling.

tunney

Kurt Godel wrote: »

indications of effort besides to size of the sweat puddle.

If you need to wee you are not going hard enough.
If you feel like vomiting or do vomit then you are going just right.
If you sh1t yourself you have gone too hard.

bryangiggsy

tunney wrote: »

Or you have just wasted your entire session by doing it in a poorly ventilated room with inadequate cooling.

When compared to what ? Not doing any session at all ?

tunney

bryangiggsy wrote: »

When compared to what ? Not doing any session at all ?

At best you are left with a misguided sense of satisfaction, at worst a magnesium deficiency combined with months of ineffective training.

BTH

tunney wrote: »

At best you are left with a misguided sense of satisfaction, at worst a magnesium deficiency combined with months of ineffective training.

Mmmhhh..... I wanna say something about skinning cats......

tunney

BTH wrote: »

Mmmhhh..... I wanna say something about skinning cats......

Turboing in a hot poorly ventilated room has its place - heat acclimatisation.

But if your heart is going 90 to disperse heat and you have tested your LTHR outdoors..... 170bpm on a cool road is not going to be the same effort on lungs and legs as 170bpm in hot, poorly ventilated room.


Anyways to be honest if ye all want to train in black plastic bags in saunas knock yourselves out!

Kurt Godel

tunney wrote: »

At best you are left with a misguided sense of satisfaction, at worst a magnesium deficiency combined with months of ineffective training.

I was just now explaining "implication" to my daughter

"There is a pool of sweat under my bike because I trained hard on the turbo"

does not imply

"I trained hard on the turbo because there is a pool of sweat under my bike"

I'm saying the former, not the latter.

BTH

tunney wrote: »

Turboing in a hot poorly ventilated room has its place - heat acclimatisation.

But if your heart is going 90 to disperse heat and you have tested your LTHR outdoors..... 170bpm on a cool road is not going to be the same effort on lungs and legs as 170bpm in hot, poorly ventilated room.


Anyways to be honest if ye all want to train in black plastic bags in saunas knock yourselves out!

I would argue that 170bpm on the road is not the same as 170 on the turbo under any circumstances. I can "easily" get my HR up to 170 on the road. I'm near vomiting to do so on the turbo.

I would suggest that anyone using a LTHR tested outside as a basis for turbo sessions is doing it wrong, in the same way as using a 400m TT SC isn't a basis for working out sessions in a LC pool.

bryangiggsy

tunney wrote: »

At best you are left with a misguided sense of satisfaction, at worst a magnesium deficiency combined with months of ineffective training.

Ah rubbish Dave. What your saying is there is not benefit in doing a hard turbo session if you sweat too much?
So bear with me. You do 6 weeks of turbo (sweating a lot) and say increase your ftp by 20-30 watts then you do another 6 weeks (by sweating a lot again) and you increase your ftp again..so tell me how is that ineffective training?

tunney

BTH wrote: »

I would argue that 170bpm on the road is not the same as 170 on the turbo under any circumstances. I can "easily" get my HR up to 170 on the road. I'm near vomiting to do so on the turbo.

Really - most find the opposite

BTH wrote: »

I would suggest that anyone using a LTHR tested outside as a basis for turbo sessions is doing it wrong, in the same way as using a 400m TT SC isn't a basis for working out sessions in a LC pool.

For alot yes for some (and given theirs set ups) its the same. My LTHR and FTP indoors and outdoors is as close as makes no difference.

tunney

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Ah rubbish Dave. What your saying is there is not benefit in doing a hard turbo session if you sweat too much?
So bear with me. You do 6 weeks of turbo (sweating a lot) and say increase your ftp by 20-30 watts then you do another 6 weeks (by sweating a lot again) and you increase your ftp again..so tell me how is that ineffective training?

Or you have just wasted your entire session by doing it in a poorly ventilated room with inadequate cooling.

When compared to what ? Not doing any session at all ?

I never said sweating too much was a bad thing. I said when the source of the heat is ventilation and cooling then you have an issue. If the source of the heat is exertion then thats fine.

Many people fool themselves into think that they worked really hard on the turbo cause of the sweat dripping off them (not referring to kurt),
"So did you have the windows open and a fan on?"
"No, windows closed, no fan and the heating was on. Would that make a difference?"

Oryx

Strangely, I dont know many people painfully stupid enough to turbo with the heating on and windows closed out of some sense of misguided masochism.

sconhome

Oryx wrote: »

Strangely, I dont know many people painfully stupid enough to turbo with the heating on and windows closed out of some sense of misguided masochism.

bryangiggsy

tunney wrote: »

I never said sweating too much was a bad thing. I said when the source of the heat is ventilation and cooling then you have an issue. If the source of the heat is exertion then thats fine.

Many people fool themselves into think that they worked really hard on the turbo cause of the sweat dripping off them (not referring to kurt),
"So did you have the windows open and a fan on?"
"No, windows closed, no fan and the heating was on. Would that make a difference?"

My misunderstanding then. The majority of my sweat count comes from exertion. A cooler room would make the suffering a tad more bearable . However with the window open and fans on..Floor and shorts still soaked and i mean soaked.

BTH

tunney wrote: »

Really - most find the opposite

I find this quite surprising. 150bpm on the turbo feels much harder than 150 beats out on the road. To me anyway. Mentally as well as physically.

Green&Red

BTH wrote: »

I would argue that 170bpm on the road is not the same as 170 on the turbo under any circumstances. I can "easily" get my HR up to 170 on the road. I'm near vomiting to do so on the turbo.

I would suggest that anyone using a LTHR tested outside as a basis for turbo sessions is doing it wrong, in the same way as using a 400m TT SC isn't a basis for working out sessions in a LC pool.

I have a real issue getting above 150bpm out on the road unless I'm on a relatively steep climb, I can manage it no problem with good resistance on the turbo, can hold 170+, I'd be in bits if I was to do that on the bike for any length of time

Chartsengrafs

I got a strap for the Garmin, as I have a watch already and can't bear the idea of wearing two watches when training (i.e wearing a basic Polar too).

In terms of zones, can anyone please suggest the best way of working them out? There are a multitude of zone calculators online. I tend not to trust some of these one-size-fits-all calculators such as McMillan etc. For instance, is max HR as simple as (220-age)? Seems a bit simplistic? Or should I flog myself on the turbo and use this my max hr? Resting is around 52.

Green&Red

A simple test on the turbo is

Warm up for 10 mins
Big ring and as close to cross chaining as your bike is comfortable with
2 mins @ 95rpm in this gear
2 mins @95rpm in the next gear

and so on, no breaks, stop when you fall off the bike.

The point at where you fall off the bike is your max HR, when you plot out ur HR for the session it should increase, increase, increase, flatten out and then increase again. That flattening out is ur LT


Oh and warm down

tunney

Basster wrote: »

I got a strap for the Garmin, as I have a watch already and can't bear the idea of wearing two watches when training (i.e wearing a basic Polar too).

In terms of zones, can anyone please suggest the best way of working them out? There are a multitude of zone calculators online. I tend not to trust some of these one-size-fits-all calculators such as McMillan etc. For instance, is max HR as simple as (220-age)? Seems a bit simplistic? Or should I flog myself on the turbo and use this my max hr? Resting is around 52.

220-age is nowhere near accurate for MHR.

Anyways you should work zones out off LTHR.
If you have a nicely cooled turbo set up do an all out best even effort 30 minute TT (after a warm up) Take a lap 10 minutes in and at the end so you can determine you AHR for the last 20 minutes of the 30 minute turbo. This is an approximation of threshold (not arguing which threshold). Plug this into Friel or Coggan's formula and there you go - 5 plus training zones.

tunney

Green&Red wrote: »

A simple test on the turbo is

Warm up for 10 mins
Big ring and as close to cross chaining as your bike is comfortable with
2 mins @ 95rpm in this gear
2 mins @95rpm in the next gear

and so on, no breaks, stop when you fall off the bike.

The point at where you fall off the bike is your max HR, when you plot out ur HR for the session it should increase, increase, increase, flatten out and then increase again. That flattening out is ur LT


Oh and warm down

Looks like we will be having the "which threshold are we talking about" chat after all.

Green&Red

Go on Tunney

Oryx

Serious question: How do you find out thresholds without a power meter?

The test G&R mentions comes from Pete Reid, from a time before PMs, I presume.

Green&Red

I think, and I could be wrong it comes from Ken Doyle - Weight training for cyclists, I just have a pdf of it

http://www.amazon.com/Weight-Training-Cyclists-Program-Endurance/dp/1934030295

pgibbo

Oryx wrote: »

Serious question: How do you find out thresholds without a power meter?

The test G&R mentions comes from Pete Reid, from a time before PMs, I presume.

Personally I've always used the method tunney referenced above for HR zones on the bike and run. This is outlined in Friels books.

sconhome

pgibbo wrote: »

Personally I've always used the method tunney referenced above for HR zones on the bike and run. This is outlined in Friels books.

The handy part of it is if you're using Training Peaks the Friel and Coggins formulae are in the zones portion of your profile so updating there works across your sports. Keep all your testing consistent so they are relative to each other.

Must be time for a new FTP table? Worth highlighting the common testing protocol again.

Oryx

Green&Red wrote: »

I think, and I could be wrong it comes from Ken Doyle - Weight training for cyclists, I just have a pdf of it

http://www.amazon.com/Weight-Training-Cyclists-Program-Endurance/dp/1934030295

Its deffo in the black book too.

Diamond_25

Its not going to be a waste of time (turboing without HR or PM) - just probably not as effective. PE will vary by how you feel at a particular time (mentally and physically) but it is still a useful guage.

I turboed by way of HR and PE for two years and each year saw large bike gains. In the first winter of turboing by HR and PE I went from 2hr.24min for 80k down to 2hr.15mins so certainly not a waste of time, no bike or equipment changes. 2nd winter of training (just gone) knocked 4 mins of over olympic distance aided by some better equipment.

This will be my first winter on power for training and it will be interesting to see how it goes (got a PM in May). This year i rode olympic distance at 280 watts average and hope for 300+ averages next year.

anyway best of luck with the training.

pgibbo

Diamond_25 wrote: »

I turboed by way of HR and PE for two years and each year saw large bike gains.

I think this is the important thing - having more than one point of reference for training and racing.

peter kern

pgibbo wrote: »

I think this is the important thing - having more than one point of reference for training and racing.

certainly very true, interstingly in kona only for 33 % of people its a power meter, I would have thought by now we would be close to 50 %.

pgibbo

peter kern wrote: »

certainly very true, interstingly in kona only for 33 % of people its a power meter, I would have thought by now we would be close to 50 %.

Along similar lines I found it very interesting that BMC is now racing off feel - no PM or HR apparently

peter kern

pgibbo wrote: »

Along similar lines I found it very interesting that BMC is now racing off feel - no PM or HR apparently[/QUOTE

he want to be like kienle ;-)