Zombie Hotel weekends as radio competition prizes.

Judgement Day

Newstalk & Today FM's love affair with Zombie Hotels continues apace..every time that Matt Cooper or George Hook run a competition it's inevitably for one of these 'roundabout view' Soviet architecture hospital hotels. A feature common to most of them is their failure to operate to a standard befitting a country with aspirations to having a tourist industry. Two of the current favourites as competition prizes are the McWilliam Park Hotel (Claremorris) and the Glasshouse Hotel in Sligo. As a contributor to TripAdvisor myself I always head there after the latest prize competition is read out.

The McWilliam Park which has 260 reviews has almost 30% of respondents rating it Average/Terrible with 70% rating it Very Good/Excellent.

While the recently opened (2007) Glasshouse Hotel in Sligo fares slightly worse again from a larger pool of 672 reviews. Reading the reviews would put one off ever setting foot in either venue.

The glowing advertorials read out by the Newstalk/Today FM presenters would lead you to believe that they are talking from personal experience of these hotels. Anyway, you have been warned by an insider.

Veering off topic in the interest of fairness to the Zombie Hotels, some of the older hotels fare little better or even worse in some instances! The former Great Southern Hotel, adjacent to Sligo Station, has an incredible dissatisfaction record of 50% of the respondents. It strikes me as long overdue that many of these Fawlty Towers operators lost their ratings.

NegativeCreep

In fairness, the contributors on TripAdvisor come across as miserable feckers most of the time. A lot of grand places get awful reviews.

SV

Tripadvisor, the place where everyone goes if they've had a bad experience and very rarely people will go if they've had a good experience.
That's why these hotel ratings and review sites are always so harsh.

Judgement Day

SV wrote: »

Tripadvisor, the place where everyone goes if they've had a bad experience and very rarely people will go if they've had a good experience.
That's why these hotel ratings and review sites are always so harsh.

Patently untrue as in most cases the majority of reviews are positive - even in the case of the McWilliam Park. Also, for every negative review there's probably far more people who give out about their experiences to their friends rather than post on TripAdvisor.

MadsL

I don't give a damn about what private radio stations do as advertorials.

I do give a damn that the Irish Govt despite having gotten out of the hotel business with selling off CIE hotels, now appears, via NAMA, to be intent on running zombie hotels at a loss "until the market picks up". Seriously, wtf? If I owned a profitable hotel business I would be livid.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Judgement Day wrote: »

Newstalk & Today FM's love affair with Zombie Hotels continues apace..every time that Matt Cooper or George Hook run a competition it's inevitably for one of these 'roundabout view' Soviet architecture hospital hotels. A feature common to most of them is their failure to operate to a standard befitting a country with aspirations to having a tourist industry. Two of the current favourites as competition prizes are the McWilliam Park Hotel (Claremorris) and the Glasshouse Hotel in Sligo. As a contributor to TripAdvisor myself I always head there after the latest prize competition is read out.

The McWilliam Park which has 260 reviews has almost 30% of respondents rating it Average/Terrible with 70% rating it Very Good/Excellent.

While the recently opened (2007) Glasshouse Hotel in Sligo fares slightly worse again from a larger pool of 672 reviews. Reading the reviews would put one off ever setting foot in either venue.

The glowing advertorials read out by the Newstalk/Today FM presenters would lead you to believe that they are talking from personal experience of these hotels. Anyway, you have been warned by an insider.

Veering off topic in the interest of fairness to the Zombie Hotels, some of the older hotels fare little better or even worse in some instances! The former Great Southern Hotel, adjacent to Sligo Station, has an incredible dissatisfaction record of 50% of the respondents. It strikes me as long overdue that many of these Fawlty Towers operators lost their ratings.

The two hotels you mention get scores of 8.5 and 8.7 out of ten respectively on booking.com, so they seem at the very least good places to stay.

Beyond that, not sure what you'er getting at? I'd be happy to stay at either if I won and I'm not sure of what you mean by the phrase "zombie hotes"...?

Are you tryign to vent a personal grudge against someone here?

Judgement Day

MadsL wrote: »

I don't give a damn about what private radio stations do as advertorials.

I do give a damn that the Irish Govt despite having gotten out of the hotel business with selling off CIE hotels, now appears, via NAMA, to be intent on running zombie hotels at a loss "until the market picks up". Seriously, wtf? If I owned a profitable hotel business I would be livid.

Whatever happened to this http://www.businessandleadership.com/news/item/17459-25pc-of-irish-hotel-rooms-m - gathering dust like so many other reports I suppose.

Judgement Day

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The two hotels you mention get scores of 8.5 and 8.7 out of ten respectively on booking.com, so they seem at the very least good places to stay.

Beyond that, not sure what you'er getting at? I'd be happy to stay at either if I won and I'm not sure of what you mean by the phrase "zombie hotes"...?

Are you tryign to vent a personal grudge against someone here?

I don't where you're getting that from. :rolleyes: Incidentally, I just took a look at the McWilliam Park on booking.com - a far smaller number of reviews and a very eccentric way of displaying results which does not impress.

Orim

Thread title disappoints.

MadsL

Orim wrote: »

Thread title disappoints.

You would have thought someone would have cashed in on that concept by now.

Few pints in the Winchester and wait for it all to blow over.

For Forks Sake

Judgement Day wrote: »

it's inevitably for one of these 'roundabout view' Soviet architecture hospital hotels.

While the recently opened (2007) Glasshouse Hotel in Sligo fares slightly worse again from a larger pool of 672 reviews. Reading the reviews would put one off ever setting foot in either venue.

View from the bar of the Glasshouse in Sligo : http://i0.bookcdn.com/data/Photos/OriginalPhoto/60/6077/6077019/Glasshouse-Hotel-photos-Interior-Hotel-information.JPEG

Syndic

Orim wrote: »

Thread title disappoints.

Agree.

Clicked on this thread thinking I would be signing myself up for a zombie apocalypse experience type thing in the very near future. Gutted.

Judgement Day

Just checked the Best Western Southern Hotel (formerly Great Southern Sligo) on Booking.com - 50% dissatisfaction on TripAdvisor and an 8.5 rating on Booking.com - now that's what I call interesting.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Judgement Day wrote: »

I don't where you're getting that from. :rolleyes: Incidentally, I just took a look at the McWilliam Park on booking.com - a far smaller number of reviews and a very eccentric way of displaying results which does not impress.

Your opening post has a sense of you makign an effort to deride something, without actually being clear as to what.

Your start off against the radio stations for offeringf what you appear to consider sub-standard prizes.

You then have a go at the two hotels in question: refering to them as "Soviet architecture hospital hotels" - wtf is THAT based on? Have you ever stayed there?

As to you being an insider: what ts that based on? An insider to what? Tripadvosr? What exactly is your claim to be an "insider" based on?

And you still haven't told me what you mean by zombie hotel or why the hotels you mention qualify to be so.

I use booking.com a lot and have stayed in dozens of places in various countries, both good and bad, and the reviews, while maybe not as numerous, are certainly accurate.

My idea of hell is a weekend staying in a wedding hotel.

For Forks Sake

Judgement Day wrote: »

Just checked the Best Western Southern Hotel (formerly Great Southern Sligo) on Booking.com - 50% dissatisfaction on TripAdvisor and an 8.5 rating on Booking.com - now that's what I call interesting.

That hotel has been let go downhill steadily over the last number of years. McEniff has put no money into it at all. It's only selling point is the location next door to the train station (as with all former Great Southern hotels).

Judgement Day

For Forks Sake wrote: »

View from the bar of the Glasshouse in Sligo : http://i0.bookcdn.com/data/Photos/OriginalPhoto/60/6077/6077019/Glasshouse-Hotel-photos-Interior-Hotel-information.JPEG

I take your point on that one - the hotel is of Zombie construction, fit-out and style of operation but location is good. Most of the reviews, even the bad ones, praise the location. In general the true Zombie Hotels are located overlooking roundabouts or some equally exotic feature - the former Quality Hotel (now Maldron) at Wexford N11 roundabout is a good example.

https://maps.google.ie/maps?ie=UTF-8&q=Maldron+Hotel&fb=1&gl=ie&hq=maldron+hotel+wexford&cid=0,0,9287159467000516577&ei=o_FBUqGfJciN7QbJioHADw&ved=0CKsBEPwSMA0

Judgement Day

For Forks Sake wrote: »

That hotel has been let go downhill steadily over the last number of years. McEniff has put no money into it at all. It's only selling point is the location next door to the train station (as with all former Great Southern hotels).

He picked it up cheaply too along with the Bundoran GS Hotel when the first wave of GS Hotels were sold for a song in the 1970s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_McEniff

It's great to see what hard work and being a party member can achieve.

Gokei

I work in abbotts, elanco and fas. Ive lost count of the amount of times I've stayed in the Glasshouse. Im yet to have a bad thing to say about it.

What is wrong with it in your opinion op?
Without using the word zombie.

Judgement Day

Gokei wrote: »

I work in abbotts, elanco and fas. Ive lost count of the amount of times I've stayed in the Glasshouse. Im yet to have a bad thing to say about it.

What is wrong with it in your opinion op?
Without using the word zombie.

I made no claim to ever having been to the Glasshouse and if you read my OP you will see that I'm highlighting the fact that most prizes offered by the two radio stations concerned are for hotels that have far from satisfactory ratings. Would you be happy if you operated a business where you had 30% dissatisfaction from customers?

As for not having a bad thing to say about the Glasshouse - fine - but what do you say about those 30% or so of respondents on TripAdvisor that had a different experience? Just a load of moaning minnies I suppose.

MadsL

Hold on, neither of these hotels are owned by NAMA?

In what sense are they "Zombie hotels"?

fits

I have stayed in both hotels and they are not comparable to each other.

The Claremorris one is pretty much on a roundabout, and I didnt think was deserving of four stars. Pretty soulless spot.

The Glasshouse on the other hand, is right in the middle of Sligo and is pretty swish. I think the room I had was the fanciest I have ever stayed in with panoramic views of Sligo and the mountains beyond. Decent breakfast too. the reception could do with a new carpet but outside of that, its a decent spot. I'd take a free weekend away there, no problem.

NuckingFacker

I don't mind zombie hotels, but I hate it when the zombie waiters let bits of their skin fall in my soup. Puts me right off.

godtabh

I've been to the Glasshoue many times really like it. Never heard it once on Matt Copper as a competition

MurdyWurdy

Can someone tell me what a zombie hotel is? I was thinking it was hotels offering weekends pretending to evade zombies during an apocalypse. I was all set to run for my credit card and get it booked!

De fuq is the OP talking about..??

Judgement Day

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Your opening post has a sense of you makign an effort to deride something, without actually being clear as to what.

Your start off against the radio stations for offeringf what you appear to consider sub-standard prizes.

You then have a go at the two hotels in question: refering to them as "Soviet architecture hospital hotels" - wtf is THAT based on? Have you ever stayed there?

As to you being an insider: what ts that based on? An insider to what? Tripadvosr? What exactly is your claim to be an "insider" based on?

And you still haven't told me what you mean by zombie hotel or why the hotels you mention qualify to be so.

I use booking.com a lot and have stayed in dozens of places in various countries, both good and bad, and the reviews, while maybe not as numerous, are certainly accurate.

On mature reflection after reading my OP I can see why my use of the "insider" word has thrown you - I meant an insider who has worked in the Zombie hotel industry. I know nothing of either of these hotels save what I have read on TripAdvisor and have used to illustrate my point as they are the current favourites on Newstalk/Today FM.

Zombie hotels - is there a definition. My own interpretation of the term is hotels built in inappropriate locations, with tax incentives, by people with little or no experience of the hotel trade. They then proceeded to operate them with poor management and as much foreign labour as they could get away with. The architectural 'style' speaks for itself - they either look like Soviet apartment blocks, hospitals or shopping centre - were probably designed by quantity surveyors rather than architects...

Surprisingly, I too have travelled widely and stayed at hotels in many different countries but have never felt the need to book through any third party agency. These days I would be reluctant to stay in any hotel as I find the standard of good guesthouses far more acceptable. You're also less likely to be eating breakfast cooked hours before you're awake and then reheated as required. There are also unlikely to be drunks shouting and roaring outside your guesthouse/B+B.

NuckingFacker

Jake1 wrote: »

De fuq is the OP talking about..??

Zombie hotel apocalypse. It's all the rage on the radio it seems, or somthing. He's an insider, must be immune. I did always wonder why some receptionists were so dull and stilted looking. This explains a lot.

Judgement Day

godtabh wrote: »

I've been to the Glasshoue many times really like it. Never heard it once on Matt Copper as a competition

I didn't specify Matt Cooper in relation to the Glasshouse - it was Hook's prize this evening.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Judgement Day wrote: »

On mature reflection after reading my OP I can see why my use of the "insider" word has thrown you - I meant an insider who has worked in the Zombie hotel industry. I know nothing of either of these hotels save what I have read on TripAdvisor and have used to illustrate my point as they are the current favourites on Newstalk/Today FM.

Zombie hotels - is there a definition. My own interpretation of the term is hotels built in inappropriate locations, with tax incentives, by people with little or no experience of the hotel trade. They then proceeded to operate them with poor management and as much foreign labour as they could get away with. The architectural 'style' speaks for itself - they either look like Soviet apartment blocks, hospitals or shopping centre - were probably designed by quantity surveyors rather than architects...

Surprisingly, I too have travelled widely and stayed at hotels in many different countries but have never felt the need to book through any third party agency. These days I would be reluctant to stay in any hotel as I find the standard of good guesthouses far more acceptable. You're also less likely to be eating breakfast cooked hours before you're awake and then reheated as required. There are also unlikely to be drunks shouting and roaring outside your guesthouse/B+B.

I still can not see where you make the connections to either zombies or Soveit apartment blocks. First requies a more approriate defintion; second a more appropriate comparison! Sounds like you're using these phrases simply because they sound dramatic rather than to paint any accurate picture.

How can you call either hotel if you've never stayed at it? Saying a hotel is bad or didn't meet you standards in on online review is one thing, but did the reviews actually portray them as you do?

Scarlet42

Have never stayed in The Glasshouse. . But have been in it loads of times. Have had great food in the restaurant and great nights in the bar. . The setting and location of the hotel is excellent and it looked class all in Green for St Patricks day last year.. would love to stay in one of those rooms overlooking the River Garavogue.. especially when the water is really gushing...to the waters and the wild! .. not a roundabout in sight!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1k4uK1vjzI

NuckingFacker

Scarlet42 wrote: »

Have never stayed in The Glasshouse. . But have been in it loads of times. Have had great food in the restaurant and great nights in the bar. . The setting and location of the hotel is excellent and it looked class all in Green for St Patricks day last year.. would love to stay in one of those rooms overlooking the River Garavogue.. especially when the water is really gushing. .. not a roundabout in sight!

and it has Zombies. Sounds feckin class.

Judgement Day

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I still can not see where you make the connections to either zombies or Soveit apartment blocks. First requies a more approriate defintion; second a more appropriate comparison! Sounds like you're using these phrases simply because they sound dramatic rather than to paint any accurate picture.

How can you call either hotel if you've never stayed at it? Saying a hotel is bad or didn't meet you standards in on online review is one thing, but did the reviews actually portray them as you do?

Leaving architectural definitions to one side, this thread is about hotel breaks that are given out as prizes by the two mentioned radio stations and my research into said hotels. That I haven't been to either doesn't invalidate the reviews on TripAdvisor. The fact that the reviews, so far, have backed up my biased attitude towards that type of hotel is a happy coincidence.

Fox_In_Socks

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I still can not see where you make the connections to either zombies or Soveit apartment blocks.

It's the worth of boast worlds-failing to combine the two into Soviet Zombies, where "if communism doesn't kyill you, comdrade, then the zyombies do."

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Judgement Day wrote: »

Leaving architectural definitions to one side, this thread is about hotel breaks that are given out as prizes by the two mentioned radio stations and my research into said hotels. That I haven't been to either doesn't invalidate the reviews on TripAdvisor. The fact that the reviews, so far, have backed up my biased attitude towards that type of hotel is a happy coincidence.

Your opinion on the stations' choices is fair enough, but you haven't backed up your descriptions in the opening post. The tripadvisor reviews are invalidated, unless you can find one that describes it in the same way you do, not just merely saying they didn't like the hotel. Regardless of the accuracy of your critcims, they were very specific.

dxhound2005

Judgement Day wrote: »

Newstalk & Today FM's love affair with Zombie Hotels continues apace..every time that Matt Cooper or George Hook run a competition it's inevitably for one of these 'roundabout view' Soviet architecture hospital hotels. A feature common to most of them is their failure to operate to a standard befitting a country with aspirations to having a tourist industry. Two of the current favourites as competition prizes are the McWilliam Park Hotel (Claremorris) and the Glasshouse Hotel in Sligo. As a contributor to TripAdvisor myself I always head there after the latest prize competition is read out.

The McWilliam Park which has 260 reviews has almost 30% of respondents rating it Average/Terrible with 70% rating it Very Good/Excellent.

While the recently opened (2007) Glasshouse Hotel in Sligo fares slightly worse again from a larger pool of 672 reviews. Reading the reviews would put one off ever setting foot in either venue.

The glowing advertorials read out by the Newstalk/Today FM presenters would lead you to believe that they are talking from personal experience of these hotels. Anyway, you have been warned by an insider.

Veering off topic in the interest of fairness to the Zombie Hotels, some of the older hotels fare little better or even worse in some instances! The former Great Southern Hotel, adjacent to Sligo Station, has an incredible dissatisfaction record of 50% of the respondents. It strikes me as long overdue that many of these Fawlty Towers operators lost their ratings.

I don't see either of those on the Newstalk competition page. There are however current competitions for trips to Frankfurt and Las Vegas with what appears to be decent accommodation thrown in. And prizes of stays in Travelodge hotels in Ireland, which you might not like. But if I didn't like the prize in a competiton I wouldn't bother entering.

http://www.newstalk.ie/competitions/-/

Scarlet42

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I don't see either of those on the Newstalk competition page. There are however current competitions for trips to Frankfurt and Las Vegas with what appears to be decent accommodation thrown in. And prizes of stays in Travelodge hotels in Ireland, which you might not like. But if I didn't like the prize in a competiton I wouldn't bother entering.

http://www.newstalk.ie/competitions/-/

FRANKFURT!! .. jees shure who would want to go there .. full of zombie nazis!

ah..but there is a great flea market along the river Main on a Sat morning!

bonzodog2

I wonder do these hotels (not just the ones mentioned, there's been lots of hotel breaks as prizes over the last couple of years) pay the radio station as well, or is it just cheaper than regular advertising ?

Son Of A Vidic

Been in the Glasshouse a few times and it's a fine hotel with a very nice bar. It has a great view over the river, with a very original glass facade shaped like the bow of a ship. On top of all that, it's a pretty lively spot. So why OP? Why even start a thread on something you know nothing about? A pretty stupid thing to do imo.

MadsL

Judgement Day wrote: »

Zombie hotels - is there a definition. My own interpretation of the term is hotels built in inappropriate locations, with tax incentives, by people with little or no experience of the hotel trade. They then proceeded to operate them with poor management and as much foreign labour as they could get away with. The architectural 'style' speaks for itself - they either look like Soviet apartment blocks, hospitals or shopping centre - were probably designed by quantity surveyors rather than architects...

My understanding of Zombie hotels is hotels owned by NAMA with interim staff. Hotels that were it not for the bailout of the developer would be dead by now; hence the term Zombie. I undrstand other well-mangaed hoteliers dislike the fact that they operate at a loss as they undercut the market whilst effectively subsidised by the state.

Since neither of these hotels (or radio stations) are owned by the State I am baffled as to your gripe with the newstations. But then it wouldn't be the first time you have blamed something on an organisation that bears no responsibility.

What exactly is wrong with radio stations handing out subsidised sponsored prizes, they are profit-driven businesses?

qapmoc

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Been in the Glasshouse a few times and it's a fine hotel with a very nice bar. It has a great view over the river, with a very original glass facade shaped like the bow of a ship. On top of all that, it's a pretty lively spot. So why OP? Why even start a thread on something you know nothing about? A pretty stupid thing to do imo.

Its a fine hotel, for a hotel in the centre of a town. Spectacular setting overlooking gushing river. Large windows, great light. Stop writing negative reviews on trip advisor OP. I would tend to distrust trip advisor anyway as you see even the best hotels in the country getting lots of poor reviews. Silly people can distort results.

Cannot understand why anyone would go to a hotel in Claremorris though. I remember last year everyone in the audience on the late late show got a weekend away there. I wonder how many went.

Mr. Nice

Deleted User wrote: »

My idea of hell is a weekend staying in a wedding hotel.

I guess that depends on whether you're there for your wedding or not.

Mr. Nice

For Forks Sake wrote: »

It's only selling point is the location next door to the train station (as with all former Great Southern hotels).

Yes, most notably the Great Southern Shannon Hotel...

Judgement Day

MadsL wrote: »

My understanding of Zombie hotels is hotels owned by NAMA with interim staff. Hotels that were it not for the bailout of the developer would be dead by now; hence the term Zombie. I undrstand other well-mangaed hoteliers dislike the fact that they operate at a loss as they undercut the market whilst effectively subsidised by the state.

Since neither of these hotels (or radio stations) are owned by the State I am baffled as to your gripe with the newstations. But then it wouldn't be the first time you have blamed something on an organisation that bears no responsibility.

What exactly is wrong with radio stations handing out subsidised sponsored prizes, they are profit-driven businesses?

Why don't you try reading the OP and see what I wrote rather than what you think I wrote?

PS Thanks for the back seat modding. Keep it up and they might make you one.

Judgement Day

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Been in the Glasshouse a few times and it's a fine hotel with a very nice bar. It has a great view over the river, with a very original glass facade shaped like the bow of a ship. On top of all that, it's a pretty lively spot. So why OP? Why even start a thread on something you know nothing about? A pretty stupid thing to do imo.

I know nothing about the two hotels in particular - apart from what I've read online - but why that invalidates my research, or the reviews, I don't know. My point was that many of the hotels being promoted on the aforementioned radio stations fail to cut the mustard when it comes to reviews on TripAdvisor. I know it's fashionable to deride sites like TripAdvisor but I fail to see why. I have only left one negative review on TripAdvisor and that was for a place that is since gone.

PS Thanks for the insult. :P

gobnaitolunacy

If you don't like the prize, don't enter.

I don't bother for most of these, esp. if it's some 'retreat' in the arse end of nowhere with a stark choice of golf or a spa where they dump a wheelbarrow of stones on your back.

Frank Black

Judgement Day wrote: »

I know nothing about the two hotels in particular - apart from what I've read online - but why that invalidates my research, or the reviews, I don't know. My point was that many of the hotels being promoted on the aforementioned radio stations fail to cut the mustard when it comes to reviews on TripAdvisor. I know it's fashionable to deride sites like TripAdvisor but I fail to see why. I have only left one negative review on TripAdvisor and that was for a place that is since gone.

PS Thanks for the insult. :P

So basically your problem is the standard of prizes being offered by radio stations?

Just don't enter the competitions if they don't appeal - problem solved.

Matt_Trakker

You said there'd be zombies.
WTF? :mad::mad:

MadsL

Judgement Day wrote: »

Why don't you try reading the OP and see what I wrote rather than what you think I wrote?

Judgement Day wrote: »

Newstalk & Today FM's love affair with Zombie Hotels continues apace..

Neither of the hotels you mentioned are in fact zombie hotels, except by the strange definition you made up yourself. Both radio stations are private profit making organisations, why shouldn't they take sponsored prizes?

You are basically grumbling that the prize isn't good enough for your taste. My advice would be to not enter the competition, that way you will be assured that the prize will not disappoint.

PS Thanks for the back seat modding. Keep it up and they might make you one.

If you have a problem with my posts please use the report button, I'd encourage you to do so.

I merely pointed out that this isn't the first time you have ascribed blame to an organisation who bear no responsibility whatsoever for the problem you are complaining about. Nothing to do with the rules of the forum.

Judgement Day

How is your favourite wildfowl reserve these days - there's a fine pre-Celtic Tiger Zombie (from an architectural point of view) hotel overlooking it if memory serves me.

MadsL

Judgement Day wrote: »

How is your favourite wildfowl reserve these days - there's a fine pre-Celtic Tiger Zombie (from an architectural point of view) hotel overlooking it if memory serves me.

Doing just fine according to the NPWS Survey of 2009 http://www.npws.ie/media/npws/publications/reports/McCorry_&_Ryle_2009_Saltmarsh_survey_V1.pdf

I suggest you post on that thread if you want to discuss it with me.