New Motor tax system, already problems with it

tandcapply

I've bought a car in late August, previous owner (Garage) let the tax run out.
I got the new renewal form last week (mid September), in the form they've asked for it to be back paid (although I wasn't the owner).
I went to tax it online (to see if I can specify a day), and online they wanted to pay from the begining of August (which is fair enough), problem is that they want Arrears of 42Euro on top of the yearly sum for not paying in August. Here's what is say on motortax.ie

"
Arrears are due as follows:
Arrears Period: 01/08/2013 - 31/08/2013
Arrears Amount: EUR 42

If you believe that these arrears are not appropriate, you will have to tax your vehicle at your local Motor Tax Office.

It should be noted that a subsequent declaration of non-use for any arrears period paid will not be acceptable for a refund of motor tax.

The new tax disc will commence on 01/09/2013
"

I rang them and was told, go to the guards and declare it off the road for August.

WTF?
Is it going to happen to anyone who buy a second hand car towards the end of the month? what if like myself you live miles away from a motortax office?

corktina

yep, you would need to pay the arrears for August and then 3 or 12 months tax from September. Only whats due, it isn't extra.

Kangoo Man

The new 'non use' car tax rules are crazy and will have huge implications for cars/motorbikes/tractors in sheds and garages all over the country.

corktina

How? all you do is fill up a form and post it to say it isn't on the road.

Losty Dublin

corktina wrote: »

yep, you would need to pay the arrears for August and then 3 or 12 months tax from September. Only whats due, it isn't extra.

Actually CT that has always been the way; if you tax your car late then arrears are due along with the usual tax levies. OP, so long as the car has been on the road since August and in your name then the motor tax is due by you. Asking a garda to sign RF 101 A only applies if the car was off the road in August; if it was on the road and the RF 101 A isn't signed then the arrears need to be paid.

Carawaystick

You bought the car in August, you've to tax it for august...
Buy your next car either taxed or at the start of a month

Cookie_Monster

I didn't think garages were allowed sell untaxed cars?

Victor

tandcapply wrote: »

I've bought a car in late August, previous owner (Garage) let the tax run out.
I got the new renewal form last week (mid September), in the form they've asked for it to be back paid (although I wasn't the owner).
I went to tax it online (to see if I can specify a day), and online they wanted to pay from the begining of August (which is fair enough), problem is that they want Arrears of 42Euro on top of the yearly sum for not paying in August. Here's what is say on motortax.ie

Do I have it right that the €42 is for August? and that you can only tax it for a whole month, starting on the first of the month, not parts of months?

Losty Dublin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I didn't think garages were allowed sell untaxed cars?

They do it all the time. Both new and used cars can go untaxed for long periods of time between delivery and sale to new owners.

Kangoo Man

The problem I see is that there are hundreds of thousands of cars, motorbikes, trucks, buses, tractors, combines etc in sheds and garages (not commercial) around the country which are off the road long term for various reasons.

These vehicles are now liable for tax and substantial back tax if the owners try to put them back on the road! Also if they try to sell it will they be caught for back tax if they didn't declare it off the road?

Yawns

There's no problem. OP bought the car in August and presumably drove it home from the garage in August so it was used in August. Tax is due. So no problem there even tho the op thinks there is.

As for the cars and bikes etc in sheds around the country excuse that gets pulled out, this has been announced months ago and everyone was given a lot of time to declare of the road in advance before they switched over. My sister in Australia managed to get her paperwork in order and have it declared of the road. There's no excuses. You either cared enough to do it properly or you didn't.

I still think tax on fuel is the way to go, with rebates to commercial usage etc but we all know that's not gonna take off here as it's a more logical approach. Even if it did take off, there would be people saying how there's problems with that system as someone with a lawn mower has to pay tax. You really can't please everyone.

relaxed

Yawns wrote: »

There's no problem. OP bought the car in August and presumably drove it home from the garage in August so it was used in August. Tax is due. So no problem there even tho the op thinks there is.

As for the cars and bikes etc in sheds around the country excuse that gets pulled out, this has been announced months ago and everyone was given a lot of time to declare of the road in advance before they switched over. My sister in Australia managed to get her paperwork in order and have it declared of the road. There's no excuses. You either cared enough to do it properly or you didn't.

I still think tax on fuel is the way to go, with rebates to commercial usage etc but we all know that's not gonna take off here as it's a more logical approach. Even if it did take off, there would be people saying how there's problems with that system as someone with a lawn mower has to pay tax. You really can't please everyone.

While in an ideal world this will work the problem I see is more fuel theft and more fuel laundering.

I assume the way around paying backdated motor tax is to just do a change of ownership on the car to your mother and then change it back again?

Yawns

Most likely. It will deter some people if they want to sell it on in future. Others won't care and will change names etc. It's a lot messier than just going to a garda station and stamping a form. Posting the log book and waiting a couple of weeks, hoping it doesn't go missing etc.

I wouldn't see fuel theft going up astronomically. It may increase a small amount but not much more than what currently happens now I'd wager. Most people dodge tax these days as it's easy to and seems to be socially acceptable on some levels. The majority of those people won't go around sucking petrol out of cars I'd imagine.

Fuel laundering will always be around as long as people are willing to buy the inferior ****. No matter how many stories you read of engines being fecked up, people will still pull into dodgy stations and fill up. With a 100% compliance tax rate on fuel, more money would be taken in. Close the tax offices and redeploy the staff to other departments such as customs etc. Train them in and have a more capable department of looking out for fuel laundering.

V.W.L 11

Kangoo Man wrote: »

The new 'non use' car tax rules are crazy and will have huge implications for cars/motorbikes/tractors in sheds and garages all over the country.

you can be sure the likes of phil hogan are doing everything to maximise the intake of cash

corktina

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

you can be sure the likes of pbil hogan are doing everything to maximise the intake of cash

and rightly so...why should anyone get away with not paying up? I always pay mine

V.W.L 11

corktina wrote: »

and rightly so...why should anyone get away with not paying up? I always pay mine

i pay mine as well my only issue is the crippling prices and its up up and up they go

corktina

they only appear crippling because you have to pay at least three months at a time. Probably you would pay more in (for instance) car parking charges in three months but you don't notice it. Maybe there should be a monthly DDM option (or is that too sensible?)

V.W.L 11

corktina wrote: »

they only appear crippling because you have to pay at least three months at a time. Probably you would pay more in (for instance) car parking charges in three months but you don't notice it. Maybe there should be a monthly DDM option (or is that too sensible?)

seems reasonable but if that ever happened it'd be fairly expensive no doubt hogan would have to be awkward in the process sure

Cookie_Monster

Losty Dublin wrote: »

They do it all the time. Both new and used cars can go untaxed for long periods of time between delivery and sale to new owners.

Fair enough, I'd never buy a car untaxed anyway, it's an easy thing for the seller to do and if they are serious about selling the car they'll do it.

TonyInch

corktina wrote: »

How? all you do is fill up a form and post it to say it isn't on the road.

Is that really all you need to do?

Have car as a project in a shed waiting repair last taxed August 2012.

Posted RF150 to tax office last week and have heard nothing. Car wont be ready for NCT until at least December

corktina

no , as has been said loads of times, you need an RF101A to cover past untaxed months and an RF150 going forward.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Triangla

The thing about taxing fuel is that it already is taxed.

Motorists are taxed at purchase stage with VRT.

Then it's taxed again every year with tax disc.

No idea where all that tax money has been going all these years.

It's not being spent on the ****e roads. Yeah great motorway from Dublin to Cork. Have fun in the hour plus it takes you to get from Dublin city centre to Naas.

If even one car crashes it causes chaos.

corktina

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

at this time, yes, but who is to say that won't be changed?

Actually, maybe it should be changed, all the owners of that list of vehicles had three months to regularise their positions, why should we leave a loophole open for them to escape though?

Kangoo Man

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That makes a joke of the whole thing. All you have to do is change the ownership and drive away. Why bother declaring it off the road every 12 months if you can do that!!!

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Victor

Triangla wrote: »

The thing about taxing fuel is that it already is taxed.

Motorists are taxed at purchase stage with VRT.

Then it's taxed again every year with tax disc.

No idea where all that tax money has been going all these years.

It's not being spent on the ****e roads. Yeah great motorway from Dublin to Cork. Have fun in the hour plus it takes you to get from Dublin city centre to Naas.

If even one car crashes it causes chaos.

Let's stick to the topic at hand

Moderator

sdanseo

corktina wrote: »

yep, you would need to pay the arrears for August and then 3 or 12 months tax from September. Only whats due, it isn't extra.

It is, slightly. Arrears per month are calculated at 10% of the annual rate.

jfk1977

Sorry if ive missed something but is there an actual form which needs completion which is provided from the tax office or do I just notify the tax office my car is garaged.

I have a motor in a shed which has not been taxed since March.

corktina

yeah you missed around 100 threads on the subject...Rf100A to cover past untaxed months, RF150 to cover the future ones (and quick)

Cathyht

I taxed my car for a year, till end Dec, so I thankfully missed this latest tax rule debacle.

My friend has just spent 10 euro, my last 10 euro of credit, lamenting a serious woe.
She HAD her car in the garage till end Sept, there for over 2 months awaiting some magical part or other.
End Sept - or 1st Oct got car back, with note from garage, whatever form stamped and Guards stamped it. She got to tax office in Wicklow at 2 pm 1st Oct and it was CRAZY busy, waited. Lots of frustrated carry on, people giving out, slow queues and place packed without enough staff to cope with crowd. She had no idea what was really going on THAT day, she isn't Irish. But I didn't know about these new rules either, and I am Irish. She had to leave as there were so many in front of her and she had still to drive 25 mins to collect her son from school.
Next day, 2nd October she went up to Wicklow again with Guarda signed form, papers and money for tax Oct Nov Dec, 90 quid. No way would they accept it, the Guard signed form for Aug and Sept was suddenly obsolete after 24 hours, because it wasn't 1st October!! She questioned this and was told it was the new rule and she now owed 172, they 'couldn't do anything about it'.
She complained and asked for the supervisor. Supervisor arrived saying 'Before you say anything, I can't do anything about this, it's a new rule introduced by the Government'. Kept repeating this, or variations of it.
Friend said who could she complain to. Supervisor rattled an address off and said 'there's no point, they'll be inundated' (after 1st Oct, a lot of unhappy punters in Wicklow Tax Office). Friend insisted on getting address, written down this time, not rattled off.

So this new rule means 1. that if you don't go on or before the 1st October, you are due arrears for Oct?
and 2. that if you have the correct form filled in for an off the road car, if you arrive on the 2nd of Oct instead of the 1st of Oct, the form is invalid???
They are being like a police state about 24 hours, even though there was not enough staff on to cope with large volume of people there 1st Oct. Keep in mind my friend WAS there the 1st, but couldn't wait an hour, and she hadn't had her car before the 1st, it wasn't driving at all.

If this is how tax payers are being treated, by tax paid employees, it is not acceptable.

Note: friend is not Irish, but is English, so has no problem understanding English or what was being said.

tommy2bad

Actually this rule came in the first of Sept the leeway given was a leftover from the old system where you could tax the car for the current month i.e. Sept. As of the first of Oct no more leeway left, car must be taxed as long as it is in your name unless it has been declared of the road before you put it off the road..
It's not that hard, if the car is currently taxed and breaks down and you need a month or three to repair it, you declare it off the road from when the tax expires. Then you wont be charged the back tax when you do put it back on the road.
Changes like this where they draw a line in the sand will always have some casualties, they did give plenty notice and it was all over the tv and radio, how did you miss it?

Cathyht

I suppose I missed it because, like a lot of other people devising ways to work and make money, my brain is traumatised by the sheer amount of new rules, new taxes and number crunching I have to do to just reach the end of the week and owe nothing. The news is so depressing I tend to switch it off.

I'm a Good News Only Person at the moment.

Well thanks for the info.

Obviously though you usually don't have a crystal ball to know how long the repair will take. My equally optimistic friend quite happily believed her car would be back within the week last end July/1st August. It just didn't work like that.

Which brings me to the point that even though this Tell In Advance How Long Your Car Will be Off The Road rule came in the first of Sept, my friend's car broke down around end July/August.

It is getting more and more complicated to live here.

Meanwhile basic things like swimming pool sized potholes are not being addressed.

A HUGE amount of taxpayer's money was wasted with over 3 months' work on the Arklow bridge by the council, ruining the business in the town. They ran out of money before they finished, incidentally.

My own car's suspension is wrecked from potholes on the roads generally. Then there are manholes, and the HUGE ramps everywhere around this town. I'd say Jeremy Clarkson could give Arklow an award for most ramps and most irregularly sized ramps. Is this what the road tax is spent on? I guarantee you these ramps, and lots of road surfaces around Co. Wicklow (and other counties) are not within EU guidelines. My neck is in flitters, I hold it to support it driving slooowly around the town. Suspension fixed 4 times in a few years.
As I need to wait for parts from broken cars, when I need to replace the suspension, engine, etc., sometimes my car is indefinitely off the road. I must brush up on my clairvoyant skills to know how long and when it will be next in the garage. This rigid fascism in Road Tax is just what the strangled economy and tax payers need.

tommy2bad

Cathyht you have my sympathies, between the new road tax, water charges and septic tank reg, the property tax and no doubt more tax hikes coming in the budget, we are being squeezed dry.
The rigidity is annoying, it could have any date stamped before the Oct 1 deadline was valid at the next tax renewal instead they chose to close the old system completly. Obviously the needed revenue was the driver for this inflexibility.

What you do now is change the ownership to some one you trust, pay 3 months tax and change the ownership back while it's still in tax. Hassell but if savings need to be made another week or so off the road might be worth it.

corktina

Squeezed dry is true, but that makes it all the more important to try to stop up the holes in the system so that the burden lies fairly upon everyone. There was three months leeway given and lots of publicity on radio and TV and in the press, not to mention 100s of threads on the Net.

I suggest you keep publicising that loophole about changing the ownership...sooner "they" take notice and close that one off, the better.

I wonder how many times anyone will be able to do the name change stunt before it gets classed as Fraud or Tax Evasion?

Losty Dublin

Not to be smart, Cathy, but this change in motor tax for off to road cars was very well flagged in as coming in months ago and in particular over the month of September. Your friend has very little excuse for missing it, unless she moved here very recently or if she has no grasp of English or Irish and unable to follow mainstream media.

On a side note, what sort of repair was it that it took that long to get a part for?

Cathyht wrote: »

I suppose I missed it because, like a lot of
other people devising ways to work and make money, my brain is traumatised by the sheer amount of new rules, new taxes and number crunching I have to do to just reach the end of the week and owe nothing. The news is so depressing I tend to switch it off.

I'm a Good News Only Person at the moment.

Well thanks for the info.

Obviously though you usually don't have a crystal ball to know how long the repair will take. My equally optimistic friend quite happily believed her car would be back within the week last end July/1st August. It just didn't work like that.

Which brings me to the point that even though this Tell In Advance How Long Your Car Will be Off The Road rule came in the first of Sept, my friend's car broke down around end July/August.

It is getting more and more complicated to live here.

Meanwhile basic things like swimming pool sized potholes are not being addressed.

A HUGE amount of taxpayer's money was wasted with over 3 months' work on the Arklow bridge by the council, ruining the business in the town. They ran out of money before they finished, incidentally.

My own car's suspension is wrecked from potholes on the roads generally. Then there are manholes, and the HUGE ramps everywhere around this town. I'd say Jeremy Clarkson could give Arklow an award for most ramps and most irregularly sized ramps. Is this what the road tax is spent on? I guarantee you these ramps, and lots of road surfaces around Co. Wicklow (and other counties) are not within EU guidelines. My neck is in flitters, I hold it to support it driving slooowly around the town. Suspension fixed 4 times in a few years.
As I need to wait for parts from broken cars, when I need to replace the suspension, engine, etc., sometimes my car is indefinitely off the road. I must brush up on my clairvoyant skills to know how long and when it will be next in the garage. This rigid fascism in Road Tax is just what the strangled economy and tax payers need.

AltAccount

Was your friend's tax out before she broke down, or did it expire while the car was in the garage?

tommy2bad

corktina wrote: »

Squeezed dry is true, but that makes it all the more important to try to stop up the holes in the system so that the burden lies fairly upon everyone. There was three months leeway given and lots of publicity on radio and TV and in the press, not to mention 100s of threads on the Net.

I suggest you keep publicising that loophole about changing the ownership...sooner "they" take notice and close that one off, the better.

I wonder how many times anyone will be able to do the name change stunt before it gets classed as Fraud or Tax Evasion?

Well technically it is fraud but until they have the resources to catch us it's going to be done. It's only to get passed this hump I'm suggesting it, theirs no point trying it all the time as a doge. This new system removes the incentive to 'chance it' so will leave only the committed road tax doger avoiding paying.
It's a good move tbh though some extra details need to be ironed.

murphaph

This new rule is long overdue but they need to eliminate that remaining loophole indeed. I live abroad and still managed to get my garaged bikes sorted.

Cathyht

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Not to be smart, Cathy, but this change in motor tax for off to road cars was very well flagged in as coming in months ago and in particular over the month of September. Your friend has very little excuse for missing it, unless she moved here very recently or if she has no grasp of English or Irish and unable to follow mainstream media.

On a side note, what sort of repair was it that it took that long to get a part for?

Well I think that's a ridiculous comment. I have an excellent grasp of English, not so much of the Irish and I for one heard nothing about this until my friend explained her dilemma to me.

You know the value of information is in how few people know it. I don't waste my time reading newspapers or being brainwashed by news, which is, in the main propaganda or spin doctoring. Have you actually sat down and counted how many depressing things you see and hear there? As I pay yearly tax in advance, this issue wouldn't usually affect me personally. I've actually had the tax paid and while I was waiting for an engine replacement, my car was off the road, but you will be happy to know, the revenue were still paid for that time.

However if we all shoulder this fairly, how come the politicians do not worry about cars, petrol, or tax? They have a driver too. All this is paid for, by guess who, the good old bidable tax payer. (Some of whom take immense pride in never thinking for themselves, never questioning, never saying, hold on, this is an unfair system).

When I get into my car to work, I pay for it myself, car, the insurance, the tax, the petrol. I work, and pay tax. Anything I do, drycleaning, lunches etc., I pay for, unlike people who "earn" several times more than me (straight from the exchequer). I pay tax on every penny I earn and everything I buy, with questionable returns for that tax. Why do TDs not do the same? Why does anyone consider that everything we have should go, one way or another to the exchequer.

When I read some of the self righteous comments here, the prissy insistence we "all share the burden" ho fecking ho. Who are you codding, one way or another, posters like this are benefiting directly from the rest of us being screwed.

AltAccount

What on earth are you talking about?

Losty Dublin

Cathyht wrote: »

Well I think that's a ridiculous comment. I have an excellent grasp of English, not so much of the Irish and I for one heard nothing about this until my friend explained her dilemma to me.....

Errrrr, yeah. Okayyyyy :rolleyes:

Synyster Shadow

so let me get this straight.

With the new system if my car has a major fault after I tax it for a 3 months and is garaged for a month or two maybe three (I work in garages so this is possible before someone jumps on it saying that will never happen) I have to declare it 3 months in advance and loose out on that tax as well pay arrears even though it is off the road?

Now I don't know about some people but I don't see how it is fair to expect people to be able to throw around money as they cannot predict breakdowns or anything of the sort as here's the punchline...not everyone can afford to as well I for one am being squeezed and squeezed for tax, tax and more tax.

Now I have read some of the posts above and basically seems that some peoples attitude is "well it's the law I do it so should everyone". Now it is attitude like that that ensures lower class and less fortunate people will keep being squeezed.

The fact is this system is not great but more so the price of tax in general is almost from a comedy strip. I understand paying tax runs the country but the system and way it's implemented is the problem.

tommy2bad

Synyster Shadow wrote: »

so let me get this straight.

With the new system if my car has a major fault after I tax it for a 3 months and is garaged for a month or two maybe three (I work in garages so this is possible before someone jumps on it saying that will never happen) I have to declare it 3 months in advance and loose out on that tax as well pay arrears even though it is off the road?

Now I don't know about some people but I don't see how it is fair to expect people to be able to throw around money as they cannot predict breakdowns or anything of the sort as here's the punchline...not everyone can afford to as well I for one am being squeezed and squeezed for tax, tax and more tax.

Now I have read some of the posts above and basically seems that some peoples attitude is "well it's the law I do it so should everyone". Now it is attitude like that that ensures lower class and less fortunate people will keep being squeezed.

The fact is this system is not great but more so the price of tax in general is almost from a comedy strip. I understand paying tax runs the country but the system and way it's implemented is the problem.

No. If the car breaks down with a current tax disk; do nothing, when the tax disk expires replace it i.e. retax it or if it going to be off the road declare it so at the date of expiry of the tax disk, not when you go to retax it. You dont pay any extra, the only difference is that now you do the declaration the day it comes off the road, not the day it goes back on the road.

Synyster Shadow

tommy2bad wrote: »

No. If the car breaks down with a current tax disk; do nothing, when the tax disk expires replace it i.e. retax it or if it going to be off the road declare it so at the date of expiry of the tax disk, not when you go to retax it. You dont pay any extra, the only difference is that now you do the declaration the day it comes off the road, not the day it goes back on the road.

So if the car breaks down with 1 month tax left I have to declare it but in turn will have to pay 2 months arrears as you have to declare 3 months in advance?

Well there is nothing polite I can say back to that nonsense...

tommy2bad

Hang on I don't seem to be making this clear;
If the car breaks down with 1 month tax on it and is off the road for 3 months, you declare it of the road for three months (the minimum) at the end of the current tax disk. Then when you get the car back on the road you tax it from the month it comes back in. No loss to you then as you wont be taxing it with any arrears.
The 3 month minimum is because that's the minimum tax period. You can tax it after two months if you want.

Off the road for longer than 3 months is a car that's parked up not sitting in a garage waiting for a part.

Synyster Shadow

tommy2bad wrote: »

Hang on I don't seem to be making this clear;
If the car breaks down with 1 month tax on it and is off the road for 3 months, you declare it of the road for three months (the minimum) at the end of the current tax disk. Then when you get the car back on the road you tax it from the month it comes back in. No loss to you then as you wont be taxing it with any arrears.
The 3 month minimum is because that's the minimum tax period. You can tax it after two months if you want.

Off the road for longer than 3 months is a car that's parked up not sitting in a garage waiting for a part.

Fair enough but another question I have is what notice do you need to give to declare the car off the road? for example 1 week left on tax but going abroad and parking it up for 6 months a week later with no notice just an opportunity out of the blue.

Can I declare the car off that fast?

tommy2bad

Ah yes I think I see the confusion now. It's not notice that the car will be off the road from the 20th or whatever, it's notice that the car is off the road from the expiry of the current tax disk.
As in at the time you would normally renew the tax, you instead declare it off the road. The old way you let it expire and at renewal either paid the arrears or declared it off the road retrospectively.
The difference is their is no longer any retrospective declaration.

Synyster Shadow

Ah ok I see so by right you can declare it will be off a day before the current disc expires

ferretone

We have a an old Kangoo van that's been off the road for 2 years: I wouldn't actually sell it, as I wouldn't take money from someone to take that parts-eater onto the road! And we definitely won't be driving it again ourselves. I asked the staff in the tax office if I should do the paperwork anyway, in case someone ever wants to take it for free and get it running, but they said don't bother, as they won't be due any arrears from before they became the owner.

I'm not too worried, as I say, we're pretty much only using it for an extra shed, but did they misinform me on that?

Yawns

You won't need to worry by the sounds of it. If someone does buy it or you give it away, just send the log book off with new owner details and they can take care of taxing it or declaring it off the road. They won't be liable for back tax.