Hill farming forum Galway Friday

Conmaicne Mara

FYI.

There's going to be a hill farming forum on in the Clayton hotel on this coming Friday (27th) at 2pm. IFA, Teagasc, Dept. Ag, Dept. Environment to be in attendance.

Any farmer with involvement with hill farming or commonages should give strong thought to attending it IMO.

fredweena

Can you just turn up to that?

Conmaicne Mara

fredweena wrote: »

Can you just turn up to that?

I'd say so, even though I payed my membership lately ( had to, wanted to participate in a vote ), I was never checked going into anything before.

Conmaicne Mara

thanks to rancher for the heads up via pm, as I never got the text.

the venue has been changed for tomorrow, it's now in tuam, the ard ri house hotel on the milltown road at 2pm.

I don't like it. this is supposed to be a hill farming forum. not only was it never based in a hill area, but moving it at the last minute from a major city with good transport links to the rest of the country to tuam seems very odd.

rancher

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

thanks to rancher for the heads up via pm, as I never got the text.

the venue has been changed for tomorrow, it's now in tuam, the ard ri house hotel on the milltown road at 2pm.

I don't like it. this is supposed to be a hill farming forum. not only was it never based in a hill area, but moving it at the last minute from a major city with good transport links to the rest of the country to tuam seems very odd.

Hope you checked it out somewhere else, rather than depend on what I said

Conmaicne Mara

rancher wrote: »

Hope you checked it out somewhere else, rather than depend on what I said

its on the IFA site as well

moy83

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

its on the IFA site as well

Is this change to accommodate mayo farmers or what ?

Conmaicne Mara

rancher wrote: »

Hope you checked it out somewhere else, rather than depend on what I said

I texted a couple of people earlier on who should know either way, if it's wrong I won't be long in being told :pac:

moy83 wrote: »

Is this change to accommodate mayo farmers or what ?

I've no idea,it could well be. I know there's going to be some hassle at it already, which in a way is both deserved and unfortunate given there will hopefully be a lot of farmers there, as well as two department reps and teagasc.

Conmaicne Mara

Right, just landed back Wesht again from the hill farming stronghold of Tuam :pac:

Reason I heard for the change of venue was the room in the Clayton didn't have the capacity, bad planning there by someone.

There were two good presentations on proposed upland environmental plans. Some of it quite complicated stuff in how it's implemented. They were both results based, think of it as using farm animals to manage the environment for an environmental benefit, not an agricultural one. Commonages would be scored on their conditions, the ones in better condition would be paid more than the ones in a bad state. Then there was money for capital works like scrub control, shepherding, fencing etc. Again all with a focus on the environment not an agricultural pay off. There was a third measure too for Natura 2000 areas. Lots, lots, and lots of varied detail that would mean it's difficult to give a "typical" farm example.

The we had dept of Ag inspectors. This was not exactly smooth sailing. In fairness to them they said they'd revisit and look at any case that didn't look right to farmers.

But, there was a lot of confusion over the min/max stocking levels that were in the Journal pre last Christmas. Dept inspector insisting that those numbers could be worked to at present, or CFP stocking levels, and hill farmers strongly opposing that view that the min/max levels had never been agreed - an assessment I would agree with.

The inspectors particularly stressed the importance of keeping land in GAEC, and I can't stress it enough how much they actually tried to hit that message home.

Then we had the poor buck from NPWS, the "young lad" as he was dubbed. First and likely last time I'll ever say it but I felt sorry for the NPWS man.....

First up was stressing how important the uplands were and if the public wanted to have good biodoversity, flood alleviation, carbon sinks, etc. then they'd have to pay for it....... But NPWS has no money so he passed the buck to Ag.........

So he was then asked if the all the designations SAC, NHA etc. had preserved and encouraged the species they were supposed to.......... No...........

Ok then, you've no money to pay for the disruption the designations cause to incomes, and they're not working by your own admission, so will you lift them?.............. No................

Then he says he's only started the job that year, which didn't help his cause..............

There was another thing too but I forget, he exited stage left fairly quick.

There was an important proposal that the Hill rep in IFA be given a vote and a permanent place on council as there are 14,000 poorly represented hill farmers in this country.

Won't even go into some of the other nonsense that happened.

So what I took from it all was this:

Farmers are responsible for keeping their land in GAEC, yet we're limited in stocking level by an old commonage framework plan, AEOS, REPS plans, and a min/max stocking level that may or may not be right but never was agreed. Got that?

Then, we have this fabulous resource in the uplands that's of huge benefit to the public at large in terms of biodiversity, flood alleviation, carbon sink etc. which the NPWS (representing the Govt representing the public) won't pay for, yet they impose designations on that land to stop the actual lawful owners earning an income from it, which same designations they admit have failed yet won't lift them. So they pass the buck to Ag, who say sorry lads, NPWS imposed them so NPWS pay the bill.

Now, you run your business and pay the bills based on that.





And ye're worried about windmills?

sea12

Was there many at it after cm . Hill farming doesn't affect me at all. What's the bet affect for u based on their proposals.

Conmaicne Mara

sea12 wrote: »

Was there many at it after cm . Hill farming doesn't affect me at all. What's the bet affect for u based on their proposals.

Yeah there was a big crowd at it, from all over, Connemara, Mayo, Sligo, Kerry, Cork, Louth, Wicklow. Didn't hear any obvious Donegal or Waterford heads but I'm sure they were there.

Best outcome for me is a good agri environmental plan - as we're not allowed to use our own freehold land to make an income, and an improved DAS scheme given the uplands suffer the worst of the weather and land conditions. What'll really happen is another story.

rancher

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Yeah there was a big crowd at it, from all over, Connemara, Mayo, Sligo, Kerry, Cork, Louth, Wicklow. Didn't hear any obvious Donegal or Waterford heads but I'm sure they were there.

Best outcome for me is a good agri environmental plan - as we're not allowed to use our own freehold land to make an income, and an improved DAS scheme given the uplands suffer the worst of the weather and land conditions. What'll really happen is another story.

Will the new minimum single farm payment not make a difference, I thought that there farmers on hills with big acreage but low single farm payments per ha that were really going to cash in on the new CAP reform.
On the vote referred to, was it the regional chairman one...

Conmaicne Mara

rancher wrote: »

Will the new minimum single farm payment not make a difference, I thought that there farmers on hills with big acreage but low single farm payments per ha that were really going to cash in on the new CAP reform.
On the vote referred to, was it the regional chairman one...

Council was what I heard, central council? Was a position with a vote anyway. There are more hill farmers than dairy farmers. No slight at dairy farmers, but IFA are always going on about representing ALL farmers and being democratic, now's the chance for them to put that into practice and out of lip service, if they really mean it.

The min SFP, yes it will make a difference and that's welcome, but the reality is today is 2013 and the full weight of the new SFP will not be in until 2019, plus there's a mid term review in there. Live horse and you'll eat comes to mind. A lot will rightly claim, myself included, due to land designation and destocking they never got a chance to build stock numbers on farm to be entitled to a decent SFP the first time out through no fault of their own. So I wouldn't say people are going to really cash in on it, seeing as they lost out heavily first time.

The reason for looking for a strong agri enviro plan for the uplands is basically due to our land being designated. Those designations are put in place by people who publicly admit they're failing, yet they're denying farmers (remember you talked of farmers rights on the windmill thread) the opportunity to make a living from their own land - owned land, not Government land.

Those designations then lead to low stocking levels, so Agriculture say you're understocked and not entitled to claim DAS. But understocked by force, not choice, and it's due to Government laziness in not working with farmers to sort out the issue, they prefer dictats like the min/max stocking levels that were never agreed (plainly put those numbers would destroy a lot of commonages, while others are completely under grazed and both situations are as useless as the other).

rancher

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Council was what I heard, central council? Was a position with a vote anyway. There are more hill farmers than dairy farmers. No slight at dairy farmers, but IFA are always going on about representing ALL farmers and being democratic, now's the chance for them to put that into practice and out of lip service, if they really mean it.

The min SFP, yes it will make a difference and that's welcome, but the reality is today is 2013 and the full weight of the new SFP will not be in until 2019, plus there's a mid term review in there. Live horse and you'll eat comes to mind. A lot will rightly claim, myself included, due to land designation and destocking they never got a chance to build stock numbers on farm to be entitled to a decent SFP the first time out through no fault of their own. So I wouldn't say people are going to really cash in on it, seeing as they lost out heavily first time.

The reason for looking for a strong agri enviro plan for the uplands is basically due to our land being designated. Those designations are put in place by people who publicly admit they're failing, yet they're denying farmers (remember you talked of farmers rights on the windmill thread) the opportunity to make a living from their own land - owned land, not Government land.

Those designations then lead to low stocking levels, so Agriculture say you're understocked and not entitled to claim DAS. But understocked by force, not choice, and it's due to Government laziness in not working with farmers to sort out the issue, they prefer dictats like the min/max stocking levels that were never agreed (plainly put those numbers would destroy a lot of commonages, while others are completely under grazed and both situations are as useless as the other).

The Louth and Sligo Co chairmen are hill farmers, They're on national exec as is the hill committee chairman. Can you not get them and farmers together to drive some proposals. If there's a hill committee chairman there must be a hill committee. I know nothing about hill farming.
You say I talked about farmers rights, but I do more than talk, I spent the most of two days trying to get politicians to stop messing in farmers rights....OK we failed, but its not over yet. I gave them some hammering in the local press and there's more going on as well.
But as you see here, not everyone likes us handling issues aggressively, but any other way is a waste of our time

Conmaicne Mara

rancher wrote: »

The Louth and Sligo Co chairmen are hill farmers, They're on national exec as is the hill committee chairman. Can you not get them and farmers together to drive some proposals. If there's a hill committee chairman there must be a hill committee. I know nothing about hill farming.
You say I talked about farmers rights, but I do more than talk, I spent the most of two days trying to get politicians to stop messing in farmers rights....OK we failed, but its not over yet. I gave them some hammering in the local press and there's more going on as well.
But as you see here, not everyone likes us handling issues aggressively, but any other way is a waste of our time

We've people from this area (and other areas in fairness) working hard on different things, like creating new markets for light lamb which would mean those light lambs don't turn into hoggets and interfere with early lamb the following year - everyone wins, but before that Bord Bia treated all lamb as lamb insteading of putting more thought into it, so there are two hill men on the stakeholders board there now. The Ag Enviro plans also came from contacts hill farmers had with IT's, enviro groups, and other hill farmers in other areas of the country. Hill farmers have set up a new pure bred society in the Mayo Connemara breed, also the Connemara Hill Lamb breed. There are connections and relationships built, it's an ongoing process.

There are also people in regular contact (and conflict) with Ministers, officials, politicians on every level as well as the EU (including going there), so there are lots of interactions there too. The fact of it probably is we have more friends in the EU than Ireland, as the EU seem to be of a proactive mind when it comes to "issues" where at home it's quite adversarial (no answer, not out fault type of thing rather than co operation on problem solving).

Me, I am a tiny insignificant piece of a bigger puzzle and I won't cod myself I can get people together on these things as there are other smarter, better informed, and well connected farmers already doing that. My job is to support them where and when I can.

There is a hill committee, and Tom Fadian is it's chairman. He's attended NC for most of the past year but it's not a permanent position and he has no vote AFAIK, so the proposal was to change that.

rancher

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

We've people from this area (and other areas in fairness) working hard on different things, like creating new markets for light lamb which would mean those light lambs don't turn into hoggets and interfere with early lamb the following year - everyone wins, but before that Bord Bia treated all lamb as lamb insteading of putting more thought into it, so there are two hill men on the stakeholders board there now. The Ag Enviro plans also came from contacts hill farmers had with IT's, enviro groups, and other hill farmers in other areas of the country. Hill farmers have set up a new pure bred society in the Mayo Connemara breed, also the Connemara Hill Lamb breed. There are connections and relationships built, it's an ongoing process.

There are also people in regular contact (and conflict) with Ministers, officials, politicians on every level as well as the EU (including going there), so there are lots of interactions there too. The fact of it probably is we have more friends in the EU than Ireland, as the EU seem to be of a proactive mind when it comes to "issues" where at home it's quite adversarial (no answer, not out fault type of thing rather than co operation on problem solving).

Me, I am a tiny insignificant piece of a bigger puzzle and I won't cod myself I can get people together on these things as there are other smarter, better informed, and well connected farmers already doing that. My job is to support them where and when I can.

There is a hill committee, and Tom Fadian is it's chairman. He's attended NC for most of the past year but it's not a permanent position and he has no vote AFAIK, so the proposal was to change that.

I was thinking you were part of a bigger ''puzzle'' alright. Its easy find smarter, better informed farmers, but its hard to get them to support us.
Wasn't aware of that vote or even that he had no vote, but very little seems to go to a vote anyway. Decisions are made by commodity commitees mainly,

Conmaicne Mara

rancher wrote: »

I was thinking you were part of a bigger ''puzzle'' alright. Its easy find smarter, better informed farmers, but its hard to get them to support us.
Wasn't aware of that vote or even that he had no vote, but very little seems to go to a vote anyway. Decisions are made by commodity commitees mainly,

I tried writing several replies on the support issue. I'll simplify them and put them a whole lot more diplomatically in saying that National & county IFA leaders need to do a lot more listening to their members, who are the experts on the problems as they affect those actual farmers, if they expect more support.

And I can only say that about some, not all, of them I've met based on what I've seen and heard in the flesh. I haven't met you so don't take offense at it.

rancher

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I tried writing several replies on the support issue. I'll simplify them and put them a whole lot more diplomatically in saying that National & county IFA leaders need to do a lot more listening to their members, who are the experts on the problems as they affect those actual farmers, if they expect more support.

And I can only say that about some, not all, of them I've met based on what I've seen and heard in the flesh. I haven't met you so don't take offense at it.

The point I'm making is you have to get stuck in yourselves if the people you're telling aren't driving it on,
Even Coveney says that the pressure from farmers helps him to put his point across
I did it here myself before I was a county officer, a group of us took radical action that took it to the limit ( and over it)
We were successful but it was nerve wrecking

Farmer

First of all, can somebody define what a "hill farmer" is. Is it based on height above sea level. I'm not sure if it's a good distinction to have in place.I know loads of farmers that suffer the same difficult conditions as hill farmers (poor soil, waterlogged, bleak, exposed, etc.) but don't live on "hills"

Re-instating the 10hA of of DAS payment that they took off everybody over 34hA would be a start. They had no difficulty singling out disadvantaged areas for a cap but knew not to take on SFP. All areas were affected by the REPS cuts. Why had DAS areas to take an extra hit? Leveling out of the SFP would help, but even that seems to have got somewhat diluted

It's difficult to maintain this type of land to the same GAEC as a flat dry field yet we are expected to.

sea12

On a seperate note. Won't start a new thread and it will just get swallowed up in chit chat. The sooner we have our own sub forum the better.


Anyone else down at the sheep breeders ram sale in blessington yday. A nice selection of rams of most breeds. Suffolks were a good trade. Charolais were back a bit. Bought a lovely one not star rated. Real nice animal though so happy.

Any body else down there

supersean1999

sea12 wrote: »

On a seperate note. Won't start a new thread and it will just get swallowed up in chit chat. The sooner we have our own sub forum the better.


Anyone else down at the sheep breeders ram sale in blessington yday. A nice selection of rams of most breeds. Suffolks were a good trade. Charolais were back a bit. Bought a lovely one not star rated. Real nice animal though so happy.

Any body else down there

What Price are good cheviot ram lambs and hoggets making

Conmaicne Mara

rancher wrote: »

The point I'm making is you have to get stuck in yourselves if the people you're telling aren't driving it on,
Even Coveney says that the pressure from farmers helps him to put his point across
I did it here myself before I was a county officer, a group of us took radical action that took it to the limit ( and over it)
We were successful but it was nerve wrecking

Direct action would be something I'd be in favour of, in the appropriate circumstances. But, I'd want to be very sure all other avenues were exhausted, plus the knock on implications for the future.

Example being the group of farmers under the highest destocking regime, who NPWS will no longer fund for loss of income, therefore disqualifying them from DAS. In fairness to the inspectors, once it was explained they said they'd look at those cases (whatever that means). But, if those farmers weren't to receive their DAS next year I'd have no problem hopping on a bus or being part of another type of protest - even though it doesn't directly affect me, the problem is some day it could well be me in that position.

Farmer wrote: »

First of all, can somebody define what a "hill farmer" is. Is it based on height above sea level. I'm not sure if it's a good distinction to have in place.I know loads of farmers that suffer the same difficult conditions as hill farmers (poor soil, waterlogged, bleak, exposed, etc.) but don't live on "hills"

Re-instating the 10hA of of DAS payment that they took off everybody over 34hA would be a start. They had no difficulty singling out disadvantaged areas for a cap but knew not to take on SFP. All areas were affected by the REPS cuts. Why had DAS areas to take an extra hit? Leveling out of the SFP would help, but even that seems to have got somewhat diluted

It's difficult to maintain this type of land to the same GAEC as a flat dry field yet we are expected to.

I don't know, I'd say a lot of the definition could entail the stock you have to run on your land due to the type of land and associated conditions. Like Blackface or Cheviot sheep, or a hill type of cattle.

sea12

supersean1999 wrote: »

What Price are good cheviot ram lambs and hoggets making

Surprisingly there was no Cheviots for sale . There was

Rouge de l'ouest
Border Leicester
Suffolk
Charollais
Texel
Llyen
Zwartble
Jacob.

There is a special cheviot down there next Saturday though.

Conmaicne Mara

Bit of coverage in the Journal today, which was better than the 0 coverage in Tuesdays Indo. All seems to be from the POV of the dept. and IFA usual story which is very disappointing. There was plenty discussed there on the day of more importance than a lot of what was reported. Frank Hynes of Teagasc did the livestock figures AFAIK, not IFA, he's been talking about them on all the BETTER hill farm walks. There was a bit of a lack of understanding of hill farming from them on the day.