Budget 2013...what's likely?

ottostreet

I thought there was a thread about the budget already and whats likely for motorists but I cant see it...

What's likely to happen in relation to motoring in next months budget? CC rates & C02 tax rates all to rise? How much is likely? Will fuel be hit?

ba_barabus

The CC based motor tax system will be brought into line with the co2 system meaning a drop in rates for motorists of older cars. This coupled with the new SORN system will be a welcome reprise for hard pressed motorists who will begin to pay their motor tax rather than driving it. The penalties of not paying coupled with the fairness of the system will have everyone begrudgingly but acceptably paying. Also the top rate of motor tax is expected to fall to 1300/annum. The governement will also announce that from 2016 onwards motor tax shall be included in the cost of fuel with details to follow later. This is to appease SIMI and allow them prepare for it's introduction.

Those paying on the newer system will have a slight increase of €20 per band in bands A and B while the rest of the bands will have an increase in line with inflation.

The government are also expected to drop excise duty on fuel top encourage people to use their cars more and generate extra revenue for the tax take.

Diesel laundering will also be tackle by removing the dye from fuels and giving a tax rebate to those with VAT numbers, hauliers and farmers. This coupled with the lowering of rates will make laundering fuel unprofitable.























You all wish :pac:

CiniO

ottostreet wrote: »

I thought there was a thread about the budget already and whats likely for motorists but I cant see it...

What's likely to happen in relation to motoring in next months budget? CC rates & C02 tax rates all to rise? How much is likely? Will fuel be hit?

I reckon that motor tax rates won't be touched in this years budget.
In the end how many times can they be raised. We already have the most expensive tax system on vehicles in the whole world probably. Time to stop, and I believe our great government will do so. Otherwise I'm moving out of Ireland.

Mycroft H

More of the same I'd imagine. More heaped on the CC and the CO2 tax system, more excise duty on fuel and well you get the picture.

power pants

I probably will just risk not paying tax if it increases again. Im undecided at the moment which way I will swing

visual

CiniO wrote: »

I reckon that motor tax rates won't be touched in this years budget.
In the end how many times can they be raised. We already have the most expensive tax system on vehicles in the whole world probably. Time to stop, and I believe our great government will do so. Otherwise I'm moving out of Ireland.

Moving out of ireland may be the only option as the government are very short sighted and debating how many billion they will have to take out of the economy through taxes or cuts.

I think we will see a increase across the board and bigger in emission group

Neilw

Roughly 10% increase across the board, co2 and cc rates. 3c per litre increase on petrol, 2% on diesel.

More of the same.

wexie

CiniO wrote: »

We already have the most expensive tax system on vehicles in the whole world probably.

No we dont. At least not overall

(and dont take that as me agreeing with the current system)

CiniO

wexie wrote: »

No we dont. At least not overall

(and dont take that as me agreeing with the current system)

All right. So can you list the countries that charge higher motortax than Ireland?
I bet the list will be very short.
Except from Netherland and Denmark (which I'm not sure if they are higher than in Ireland) I honestly can't think of any country in the world with higher motor tax.

wexie

CiniO wrote: »

All right. So can you list the countries that charge higher motortax than Ireland?
I bet the list will be very short.
Except from Netherland and Denmark (which I'm not sure if they are higher than in Ireland) I honestly can't think of any country in the world with higher motor tax.

Well thats 2 to start with no? (I believe Norway is pretty stiff as well)

I don't really feel like going through the interweb to figure it out.

I agree with you in principle but it could always be worse.

Having said that, I was in Holland this week and I'd feel a lot better about the motortax there as they actually have a very good and well maintained road network. Also it's more equitable insofar that there's no huge penalty for driving an older car. You get nailed on diesels but if you do enough miles it can still work out cheaper. (prices currently about 1.80 for petrol and 1.50 for diesel, LPG about 1 euroish (i think))

(it's very congested though but that's pretty hard to solve)

BohsCeltic

It will be nearly at the stage when my motor tax will be worth more than my car :mad:

Stheno

ba_barabus wrote: »

The CC based motor tax system will be brought into line with the co2 system meaning a drop in rates for motorists of older cars. This coupled with the new SORN system will be a welcome reprise for hard pressed motorists who will begin to pay their motor tax rather than driving it. The penalties of not paying coupled with the fairness of the system will have everyone begrudgingly but acceptably paying. Also the top rate of motor tax is expected to fall to 1300/annum. The governement will also announce that from 2016 onwards motor tax shall be included in the cost of fuel with details to follow later. This is to appease SIMI and allow them prepare for it's introduction.

Those paying on the newer system will have a slight increase of €20 per band in bands A and B while the rest of the bands will have an increase in line with inflation.

The government are also expected to drop excise duty on fuel top encourage people to use their cars more and generate extra revenue for the tax take.

Diesel laundering will also be tackle by removing the dye from fuels and giving a tax rebate to those with VAT numbers, hauliers and farmers. This coupled with the lowering of rates will make laundering fuel unprofitable.

I lolled

Neilw wrote: »

Roughly 10% increase across the board, co2 and cc rates. 3c per litre increase on petrol, 2% on diesel.

More of the same.

Agreed

Idbatterim

they are going to have to increase emissions based for sure, it was moronic that under the CC system, you could for example have a 2L car for 710 per year and its now 190 in the case of the 320d efficient dynamics bmw... Emissions based system was brought in at 08, these cars are about to turn 6 years old. They will have to increase rates on emissions, most of them pay virtually nothing in motor tax & I'm sorry but 200-300 quid or whatever, is as good as nothing in my opinion...

unkel

Neilw wrote: »

Roughly 10% increase across the board, co2 and cc rates.
More of the same.

Maybe. Maybe again next year. But the tax base of the old cc system is getting quite thin already and few people driving say a '98 Toyota Avensis 2l petrol would be able to afford a low tax '08 car, even a relatively cheap one

So tax that person out of his budget and no, he will not buy a newer car. He will either stop driving and / or stop taxing his car. In either case, the government is shooting themselves in the foot

I feel there might be some folk in the cabinet who are smart enough to understand this. My guess is little or no increase on the old cc system (say average 2-3%) and a big increase in the new co2 system (average 7-9%)

Anybody else feel this is a likely scenario?

Idbatterim

lads lets be honest, the vast majority of us could afford low emission cars, if you dont care what car it is you drive... its if you want to drive something decent; that's the stumbling block in most cases...

MarkN

Idbatterim wrote: »

They will have to increase rates on emissions, most of them pay virtually nothing in motor tax & I'm sorry but 200-300 quid or whatever, is as good as nothing in my opinion...

How much VRT do you think is charged on these cars? Why should people be punished for buying as the Green Party encouraged them to do? Someone paying 50K for a 5 series has already contributed more in tax than someone buying a Fiesta, why should they be over a barrel for motor tax too?

visual

MarkN wrote: »

How much VRT do you think is charged on these cars? Why should people be punished for buying as the Green Party encouraged them to do? Someone paying 50K for a 5 series has already contributed more in tax than someone buying a Fiesta, why should they be over a barrel for motor tax too?

Vrt was also paid on the festa

CJhaughey

CiniO wrote: »

All right. So can you list the countries that charge higher motortax than Ireland?
I bet the list will be very short.
Except from Netherland and Denmark (which I'm not sure if they are higher than in Ireland) I honestly can't think of any country in the world with higher motor tax.

http://www.lta.gov.sg/content/ltaweb/en/roads-and-motoring/owning-a-vehicle/costs-of-owning-a-vehicle/tax-structure-for-cars.html
Not cheap in Singapore...

CiniO

CJhaughey wrote: »

http://www.lta.gov.sg/content/ltaweb/en/roads-and-motoring/owning-a-vehicle/costs-of-owning-a-vehicle/tax-structure-for-cars.html
Not cheap in Singapore...

Indeed not cheap.
But for 1.6 car road tax comes as 744 Singapore$ per annum which equals to about 440 euro.
Still cheaper than in Ireland.

galwaytt

Ye're a cheerful lot

More of the usual is my prediction and more declining revenues.

MarkN

visual wrote: »

Vrt was also paid on the festa

Not to the same extent though. My point anyway is, why should you be screwed even more because you've bought a car from a manufacturer who have used improved technology to reduce emissions? Is that not what they wanted us to do?

CJhaughey

CiniO wrote: »

Indeed not cheap.
But for 1.6 car road tax comes as 744 Singapore$ per annum which equals to about 440 euro.
Still cheaper than in Ireland.

read further on, its horrendous.
Older cars pay more on sliding scale from 10-15 years is an additional 10-50%
Old pre Euro IV diesels pay 600% what an equivalent petrol car would pay...

coylemj

Title of the thread is wrong, it's the 2014 Budget we're discussing.

By all account there will be a €3 billion 'adjustment' consistng of an extra €1 billion in tax and a reduction of €2 billion in spending.

So given that motorists are an easy target, there will probably be an increase in the rate of motor tax (tax disc) and possibly a cent or two increase in excise on fuel.

Scortho

MarkN wrote: »

How much VRT do you think is charged on these cars? Why should people be punished for buying as the Green Party encouraged them to do? Someone paying 50K for a 5 series has already contributed more in tax than someone buying a Fiesta, why should they be over a barrel for motor tax too?

It's about having a progressive tax system.
The current system is extremely regressive.

Also you have to remember in the long run, most cars will eventually be on the CO2 rates as opposed to theCC rates. If the co2 rates are lower, it's going to mean less motor tax being collected, so they will have to increase it.

My car was 45k new in 2002. There was a significant amount of vrt paid on it back then as well.

YbFocus

Damn you BA, I was like yahoo

If it goes up another 10% its just getting ridiculous. That'll mean 1550 annually for me if that sees through.
Hope it stays the same, I won't bother saying it'll decrease.

Chimaera

The other significant problem with the CO2 based system, though it's receding a little now is that it encouraged people to buy new cars after it was introduced instead of buying secondhand since there was an incentive in motor tax to do so. This sent a lot of money out of the economy where it would have stayed if they'd bought new.

Yet now SIMI want an 'exhange' scheme that'll encourage more new car sales.

mikeecho

Increase in diesel duty with some extra rebate for those currently eligible for same to offset the increase.

Diesel had become massively popular since 2008, it's due to be hit hard

CiniO

Chimaera wrote: »

The other significant problem with the CO2 based system, though it's receding a little now is that it encouraged people to buy new cars after it was introduced instead of buying secondhand since there was an incentive in motor tax to do so. This sent a lot of money out of the economy where it would have stayed if they'd bought new.

Yet now SIMI want an 'exhange' scheme that'll encourage more new car sales.

True. That's exactly what CO2 rates did together with scrappage scheme.
And if they wanted to go even furthe they could simplify tax system now with even bigger incentive to buy new cars.

Simple - motortax would be age of car multiplied by 100.

So brand new car tax is 0.
1 year old car tax is 100euro.
5 year old car tax is 500euro.
10 year old car tax is 1000euro, and so on.

Simple, isn't it.

Scortho

CiniO wrote: »

True. That's exactly what CO2 rates did together with scrappage scheme.
And if they wanted to go even furthe they could simplify tax system now with even bigger incentive to buy new cars.

Simple - motortax would be age of car multiplied by 100.

So brand new car tax is 0.
1 year old car tax is 100euro.
5 year old car tax is 500euro.
10 year old car tax is 1000euro, and so on.

Simple, isn't it.

Feck off!:pac: makes owning anything nice prohibitive. Whatever chance Id have of owning an E28 m5 would be gone as theyd all be stripped for parts or shipped out of here!:mad:

Idbatterim

How much VRT do you think is charged on these cars? Why should people be punished for buying as the Green Party encouraged them to do?

because what the green party did was shortsighted and stupid. the major car manufacturers were being forced to majorly reduce emissions anyway. In a way I agree with you, they purchased maybe on false pretences, but I think people were being naieve if they thing they could drive around for virtually no motor tax, every year, the situation is going to be getting worse and worse as the pool of CC based cars as a percentage of the motor tax take, is going to decrease continously. A mistake was made, it doesnt mean the government should persist with it. Its like Einsteins definition of insanity...

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Vehicle%20Std%20Leg/Emissions%20regs/Euro%205%20and%20Euro%206%20Emissions%20Reg%20light%20passengercommvehicles.pdf

there is no way they will get rid of motor tax. Why not just charge everyone say a flat rate of 500 euro a year. We are all using the same roads. Then if you choose to buy a thirstier car, your paying for it in the ridiculous cost of fuel anyway... The situation is ridiculous, but that said, there is nothing stopping us driving around 1L s**t heaps or low emission cars, I choose to drive a 2.5L based on CC and the motor tax system does piss me off, but we do all know the rules, it is a CHOICE...

CiniO

Idbatterim wrote: »

because what the green party did was shortsighted and stupid. the major car manufacturers were being forced to majorly reduce emissions anyway. In a way I agree with you, they purchased maybe on false pretences, but I think people were being naieve if they thing they could drive around for virtually no motor tax, every year, the situation is going to be getting worse and worse as the pool of CC based cars as a percentage of the motor tax take, is going to decrease continously. A mistake was made, it doesnt mean the government should persist with it. Its like Einsteins definition of insanity...

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Vehicle%20Std%20Leg/Emissions%20regs/Euro%205%20and%20Euro%206%20Emissions%20Reg%20light%20passengercommvehicles.pdf

Link you gave refers to Euro5 / Euro6 emission norms.
Those have actually nothing to do with CO2 emissions on which motortax is based.
Euro norms set limits for noxious gases in exhaust, and they applied since beginning of 90's or even earlier.

Only recently some bigger countries with big new car markets set taxation rates based on CO2 emission, so this led manufacturers to reduce CO2 rates in their cars if they wanted to sell those car in those countries.
But Euro norms which were forcing smaller emission of noxious gases every few years, have been around for long time.

Idbatterim

Link you gave refers to Euro5 / Euro6 emission norms.
Those have actually nothing to do with CO2 emissions on which motortax is based.
Euro norms set limits for noxious gases in exhaust, and they applied since beginning of 90's or even earlier.

Only recently some bigger countries with big new car markets set taxation rates based on CO2 emission, so this led manufacturers to reduce CO2 rates in their cars if they wanted to sell those car in those countries.
But Euro norms which were forcing smaller emission of noxious gases every few years, have been around for long time.

surely by reducing the euro norm limits, they are automatically thereby reducing the CO2?

Days 298

Idbatterim wrote: »

because what the green party did was shortsighted and stupid. the major car manufacturers were being forced to majorly reduce emissions anyway. In a way I agree with you, they purchased maybe on false pretences, but I think people were being naieve if they thing they could drive around for virtually no motor tax, every year, the situation is going to be getting worse and worse as the pool of CC based cars as a percentage of the motor tax take, is going to decrease continously. A mistake was made, it doesnt mean the government should persist with it. Its like Einsteins definition of insanity...

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Vehicle%20Std%20Leg/Emissions%20regs/Euro%205%20and%20Euro%206%20Emissions%20Reg%20light%20passengercommvehicles.pdf

So if the government wants to continue encouraging drivers to drive low CO2 but must raise the low rates to say €500 the logical thing to do is raise the other higher bands by even more and make the difference between band B and C bigger as well to give low CO2s the edge. The government will raise all CO2s hugely but all the CC's will be on the way out. And then in decades to come when we are made switch to electric it will be initially cheap compared to ICE tax to incentivise but it will be raised too.

Idbatterim

So if the government wants to continue encouraging drivers to drive low CO2 but must raise the low rates to say €500 the logical thing to do is raise the other higher bands by even more and make the difference between band B and C bigger as well to give low CO2s the edge. The government will raise all CO2s hugely but all the CC's will be on the way out. And then in decades to come when we are made switch to electric it will be initially cheap compared to ICE tax to incentive but it will be raised too.

I think the green being idealists cared about the environment and reducing emissions. All the current crowd give a toss about is raising as much revenue as possible... We dont have a bloody motor industry here, we have a very powerful lobby group SIMI though...

you see you could spin endless arguments off this, if they really give a s**t about the environment and sustainability, why allow one off housing, why allow ribbon development?why not allow higher density in city centre?

CiniO

Idbatterim wrote: »

surely by reducing the euro norm limits, they are automatically thereby reducing the CO2?

I don't think it is linked in any way.

CO2 emissions are rather proportional to fuel consumption (the lower fuel consumption then lower CO2/km rate).

Euro emission norms set limits for percentage of noxious gases. F.e. one of those norms in early times (probably Euro2 - I'm not sure now) forced most manufacturers to install catalithic convertes in cars which reduced noxious gases, but didn't have any effect on CO2 emissions.

You might get a sports car with huge engine providing lots of power, using lots of fuel and having horrendously big CO2/km emissions rate.
But this car can easily fulfil new Euro5 or Euro6 norms, as percentage of noxious gases will be small enough.

The same you can have old very economical car with tiny engine, and very small CO2/km emissions, but with big percentage of CO, NX, etc in exhaust fumes which won't fulfil any of Euro norms.

It's just completely different thing.

Mint Sauce

ba_barabus wrote: »

The CC based motor tax system will be brought into line with the co2 system meaning a drop in rates for motorists of older cars. This coupled with the new SORN system will be a welcome reprise for hard pressed motorists who will begin to pay their motor tax rather than driving it. The penalties of not paying coupled with the fairness of the system will have everyone begrudgingly but acceptably paying. Also the top rate of motor tax is expected to fall to 1300/annum. The governement will also announce that from 2016 onwards motor tax shall be included in the cost of fuel with details to follow later. This is to appease SIMI and allow them prepare for it's introduction.

Those paying on the newer system will have a slight increase of €20 per band in bands A and B while the rest of the bands will have an increase in line with inflation.

The government are also expected to drop excise duty on fuel top encourage people to use their cars more and generate extra revenue for the tax take.

Diesel laundering will also be tackle by removing the dye from fuels and giving a tax rebate to those with VAT numbers, hauliers and farmers. This coupled with the lowering of rates will make laundering fuel unprofitable.























You all wish :pac:

Was I the only one about to post, Link?

Brilliant

ottostreet

This thread is depressing reading.

Days 298

Idbatterim wrote: »

I think the green being idealists cared about the environment and reducing emissions. All the current crowd give a toss about is raising as much revenue as possible... We dont have a bloody motor industry here, we have a very powerful lobby group SIMI though...

you see you could spin endless arguments off this, if they really give a s**t about the environment and sustainability, why allow one off housing, why allow ribbon development?why not allow higher density in city centre?

Not arguing it's just the way the government are going to spin it. They don't care about emissions rather car sales. If the cared about the environment they'd be cringing at all the perfect working cars being effectively made worthless by dear tax and the new cars that are being manufactured to replace them. It is short sighted but it would be nice if motorists could come together and look for reasonable rates for everyone rather than those on higher rates wanting those on lower rates to pay more. It puts motorists exactly where the government want, split and then conquered.

People should be encouraged to keep their cars for as long as possible, buying new cars doesn't help us we don't have a motor manufacturing industry.

IMO using cars as a way to raise money for the exchequer is unfair. I'd much rather see lower fuel and fairer tax and the money recouped through property taxes and paying for what water you use but the left is going crazy over them and letting increased unreasonable motor tax go unnoticed.

Max Power1

YbFocus wrote: »

Damn you BA, I was like yahoo

If it goes up another 10% its just getting ridiculous. That'll mean 1550 annually for me if that sees through.
Hope it stays the same, I won't bother saying it'll decrease.

An additional 10% on €1494 p/a actually makes it €1643.40. Just sayin...

YbFocus

Max Power1 wrote: »

An additional 10% on €1494 p/a actually makes it €1643.40. Just sayin...

Crap yeah! Maths went out the window there

Max Power1

YbFocus wrote: »

Crap yeah! Maths went out the window there

Yeah, that and it takes the tax rate over the big 1500, to nearly 1650. Lots of monehz for 12 months..

YbFocus

Too much money, then again if they brought in the tax per km I may give up! 80,000km annually!

Idbatterim

dont worry, theres no chance of it being 10% it be very little as a percentage or nothing for CC (im not suggesting it isnt already overpriced by the way)

YbFocus

Just worked out that I give just short of €29 a week in tax somehow that seems worse than the total €1494 annually.

seamus

Given the dismal failure of the new reg plates to stimulate the new car market, I foresee another scrappage scheme-like attempt to create a short-lived boom in car sales rather than reforms of taxation designed to create long-term sustainable improvement in the industry.

For the last five years the second hand trade has been exceptionally busy and profitable and the new car trade has been on the floor. This goes to show that there are significant barriers to buying new cars that don't exist for second hand ones, and I dare say VRT is probably the biggest one. Why would I pay €5k in VRT on a brand new car when I can buy the same car practically new for €5k less?

Though I suspect if they're going to talk about "levelling the playing field", their gut instinct would be to impose a stamp duty on second hand car sales.

You heard it here first

Dord

CiniO wrote: »

True. That's exactly what CO2 rates did together with scrappage scheme.
And if they wanted to go even furthe they could simplify tax system now with even bigger incentive to buy new cars.

Simple - motortax would be age of car multiplied by 100.

So brand new car tax is 0.
1 year old car tax is 100euro.
5 year old car tax is 500euro.
10 year old car tax is 1000euro, and so on.

Simple, isn't it.

That'd just push more and more people into debt as they sign up for those ridiculous schemes that the car dealers are pushing these days.

lomb

Isnt VRT very low though these days as most cars fall into low emissions?
New car sales are flat as the distributors/ dealers dont have the economies of scale as in the UK and cream off on the few who do buy to keep the show going. Optional extras are way overpriced. What has that got to do with VRT?

The distributor sets the cost value of metallic paint not the revenue. Why dont they through in some essential extras like metallic paint, sat nav, some decent looking wheels, cruise control etc in for a thousand not looking to cream 5 k out of it on an Audi or 3k on a Golf? The car has to be painted and wheeled so no major cost there, cruise is a 20 euro loom and 20 euro stalk, sat nav is available under 150 these days I cant see it costing that much on board etc.

SCOOP 64

Max Power1 wrote: »

Yeah, that and it takes the tax rate over the big 1500, to nearly 1650. Lots of monehz for 12 months..

my god!, you could buy a decent run around with NCT every year for that.

Idbatterim

lads we all complain about vrt, but if it werent for vrt, imagine how much more money would be leaving the country!

Just worked out that I give just short of €29 a week in tax somehow that seems worse than the total €1494 annually.

E29 a week if you pay for the year. every six months its 829 = E32 per week or every 3 months its E422 = E32.50 per week

at least before when you bought a new car, you got the year out of it before changed, now you get a "new" car for 6 months max, in a way, it actually takes away from getting a new car! at least before you could get a year out of the reg plate snobbery...

BohsCeltic

CiniO wrote: »

True. That's exactly what CO2 rates did together with scrappage scheme.
And if they wanted to go even furthe they could simplify tax system now with even bigger incentive to buy new cars.

Simple - motortax would be age of car multiplied by 100.

So brand new car tax is 0.
1 year old car tax is 100euro.
5 year old car tax is 500euro.
10 year old car tax is 1000euro, and so on.

Simple, isn't it.

So punish those who can't afford a new car by increasing their motor tax :rolleyes:

Voodoomelon

No reform in the slightest, just a small increase for CC and a slightly larger proportional increase for CO2.