International Age Group Racing MOD WARNING POST 1

bryangiggsy

MOD NOTE - I'm moving this because it was off topic in the other thread. BUT, I am very aware of the road this could go down, and I'm feeling very trigger happy after the past 2 weeks on here. Opinions, and counter-arguments ONLY, DO NOT attack any poster or participant involved.




any thoughts on Shane Scully blog on his website

http://www.shanescully.com/the-age-group-triathlete-delusion/


Have expressed my opinion already on what i think of the qualifying standards and why they should change.

The thoughts of an Irish competitor on the course with a beer in hand annoyed me....and a foreign competitor proposing near the finish chute annoyed me even more!! Totally taking the piss.

sconhome

bryangiggsy wrote: »

any thoughts on Shane Scully blog on his website

http://www.shanescully.com/the-age-group-triathlete-delusion/


Have expressed my opinion already on what i think of the qualifying standards and why they should change.

The thoughts of an Irish competitor on the course with a beer in hand annoyed me....and a foreign competitor proposing near the finish chute annoyed me even more!! Totally taking the piss.

My only thought?

Needs its own thread & lots of popcorn!!

BTH

amphkingwest wrote: »

My only thought?

Needs its own thread & lots of popcorn!!

Oh no you don't. I'm not taking the day off work to moderate that car crash.

tunney

bryangiggsy wrote: »

any thoughts on Shane Scully blog on his website

http://www.shanescully.com/the-age-group-triathlete-delusion/


Have expressed my opinion already on what i think of the qualifying standards and why they should change.

The thoughts of an Irish competitor on the course with a beer in hand annoyed me....and a foreign competitor proposing near the finish chute annoyed me even more!! Totally taking the piss.

I am revoking my shunning of boards. <snip> no need for this addition

I agree with Shane completely. Its a total farce, a cash cow bled mercilessly by the NGBs. The numbers that can "qualify" have increased year on year on year.

Even if you put higher standards on the qualification process its still a completely pointless exercise.

Look at the people winning and podiuming in domestic races, then look at those going to the worlds. Now look at the intersection of these sets. Wow its empty......

You won your AG group at the worlds "I'm the best in the world at that AG", nope just the best of those that's not figured it out yet.

Bambaata

In fairness SS is right. I got caught in that whole "representing Ireland" feeling the first time i went to one of these "champs" but soon realised (as soon as i got hit for the costs!) its a fundraiser for the elite race. Its as much an achievement as doing any race in the country and should be praised as much as that. It is ridiculous that people think they have represented their country as they have done anything more than send an application in and pay a small fortune.

Id probably go along for the fun of it all if the costs weren't so extreme. I mean first they get you with a ridiculous "application fee" then theres an entrance fee, then you pay for "team support" (last time i checked you did anyway). And when your bank balance is already in the red they hit you for the Irish trisuit lark. I know the Ironman and Challenge races aint cheap but I feel they offer a lot more for the fee. Theres the whole ironman tattoo debate there too though.

If it makes people happy then fair play to them but i can see how it gets under SS's skin.

mloc123

I have seen some of the 'Triathletes' that qualify and represent Ireland in the Euro and World championships. I think TI need to set a qualifying standard.. not just a slot allocation.

tunney

mloc123 wrote: »

I have seen some of the 'Triathletes' that qualify and represent Ireland in the Euro and World championships. I think TI need to set a qualifying standard.. not just a slot allocation.

Simple enough

male : "do you have a single digit body fat percentage?"
female : "do you have a mid teen body fat percentage?"

sconhome

I'm going to get accused of sitting on the fence.

I see where Shane is coming from and whilst I agree with a lot of what he says (and have said similiar myself) why the stress about it?

I say, so what.

If someone wants to race AG so be it. If someone qualifies to race for 'Ireland' either by selection process or roll down, so what. We're Irish and proud to be Irish no matter how good or bad we are at triathlon.

Yes, it might devalue the essence of representing your country on an International stage. It's not what I expected when I started triathlon. To me representing your country meant being the best at what you do, wearing the Irish shirt, or qualifying for the Olympics meant the hard work you put in earned you that shirt.

So what if AGers don't put in the same work, so what if the bar is laid low to entry. So what if it's all people aspire to do in the bucket list box ticking kind of way that is normal now.

Triathlon is individual so who cares what the others do as long as you are in front of them (and they're not drafting!!)

Springs to mind NSFW

mossym

tunney wrote: »

Simple enough

male : "do you have a single digit body fat percentage?"
female : "do you have a mid teen body fat percentage?"

i know a couple of people who fit that who would

a) drown during the swim
b) need an arrow to tell them which way to face on the bike
c) run only in the event two of them were going for the last available free weights bench at the gym

so agree completely, twould be highly entertaining tv

on a more serious, the last few posts answer one of my questions at least, being new to the sport(first season) i was surprised at some of the times posted by the qualifiers, the course didn't look especially tough, yet some of the times were mid pack for most of the races i've done, so seemed strange. Making a bit more sense now

catweazle

I myself would much rather see Triathlon Ireland and other ngb's go about it this way.

I will use Kevin Thornton as an example

TI: Kevin, well done on another dominating win, its looking good for you in the National Series. We would be proud for you to represent us in the World Championship as we think you have a real shot of winning.

Don't worry about costs - we will cover everything. You wont be out of pocket

Instead its a ridiculously easy qualifying system where anyone that has the readies to hand can represent their country. TI send a "support" team to handle these "athletes", which to me just looks like a jolly for the lads. I bet they were disappointed it was only in London this year, kitzbuhel next year - thats more like it, better send out a few TI boys to check out the accommodation and recce the course - why not go in March and do a few days skiing while we are at it

It seems like one big money drain, paying for the Ireland tri suits, the track suits, an outrageous entry fee and some of the hidden charges that Ed has listed that I didn't even know about

sconhome

pgibbo wrote: »

The last km
That now famous NUMPTY comment

Not as famous as this Numpty is going to be.

It was an obscure event called the ITU World Triathlon.

Shell to Run

Have to say I understand and agree with SS points on Age group qualification times. I have experienced triathletes boasting about winning their AG in Mickey mouse races and find it infuriating:

'Many of these entrants are year 2 triathletes and are the type that do this so as to brag about it to their friends in the office or on Facebook the next day.'

However, reading his blog, I think if you want to make a point then simply just make it - just don't insult all around you:

'Everyone and their dog seems to have pulled on an Irish trisuit at this stage. There are no minimum standards required. If my mother took up triathlon next summer, she could probably qualify to represent Ireland within a week of starting training. To me, that is not right.'

This last blog in particular certainly would not endear SS to the public or to sponsors for that matter.

Kurt Godel

I (perhaps naively) thought an Ireland AG shirt was an aspirational goal, ie get fitter so you can hit the top 5 in the NS points or top 5 in NC races in your AG. Is it the case that places aren't been taken up, meaning that the offer trickles down to... what level?

(Agree that the top 1 or 2 going should be fully funded from TI fees or from other AG'ers costs).

tunney

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I (perhaps naively) thought an Ireland AG shirt was an aspirational goal, ie get fitter so you can hit the top 5 in the NS points or top 5 in NC races in your AG. Is it the case that places aren't been taken up, meaning that the offer trickles down to... what level?

(Agree that the top 1 or 2 going should be fully funded from TI fees or from other AG'ers costs).

Every country has a quota of 20 persons per AG per sex in all events.

Effectively if you want to go you can go.
That level.

Anyone by anyone's definition of triathlete can go.

Disagree with top 1/2 being funded. That's 1/2 per AG, that's alot of money diverted from the actual Elites and future Elites.

mossym

tunney wrote: »

Every country has a quota of 20 persons per AG per sex in all events.

that many? did we even fill those numbers if that is the case?

NorthernRaider

The AG champs remind me of the Special Olympics!

While appropriate in the Special Olympics' case, can a huge number from one country (280 Irish entrants for the World Champs) be right!!??

joey100

How does the selection process work in other countries? Take the U.S for example, does anyone know how they select their team?

tunney

mossym wrote: »

that many? did we even fill those numbers if that is the case?

Like alot of posters are saying anyone can go. <Snip>, no need to go there


For 2014 from the TI site for the Worlds

5 slots available to the top five in each AG in a particular race (TBC which one)
5 slots available to the top five in each AG in a different particular race (TBC which one)
5 slots available to the top five in each AG in National Series 2013
5 slots available to the top five in each AG to Irish Athletes Based Outside of Ireland

Then any remaining slots (which is lots) go into the Selection Pool

So effectively unless there are 20 faster people who have all done one of the four "qualification criteria" and actually want to go you will get a slot.

Kurt Godel

tunney wrote: »

Disagree with top 1/2 being funded. That's 1/2 per AG, that's alot of money diverted from the actual Elites and future Elites.

I meant top 1 or 2 from the overall NS, and/or from the NC races (as in 1,2 across the line). So there would be a reward for someone who is not Elite standard, to up their game to be as good as the NS can be.

It could surely be funded from the pot of other AG'ers, if there are really that many going. But generally, yeah, High Performance funding>AG funding.

Anyone who has gone, how much is race entry/application/trisuit (are travel costs discounted?)

tunney

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I meant top 1 or 2 from the overall NS, and/or from the NC races (as in 1,2 across the line). So there would be a reward for someone who is not Elite standard, to up their game to be as good as the NS can be.

But that defeats the whole person of Age Group racing (not saying I agree with that either)

bryangiggsy

The National Series is not weighted properly to ensure fair qualification . Different races different fields different points.

Qualification should be based on 1 race.

To qualify to race Sprint worlds you must come in the top 3 of your age group at the Irish Sprint National Championships in the year you race

Same for Olympic. U must come in the top 3 in your age group at the National Olympic Distance Champs.

griffin100

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I (perhaps naively) thought an Ireland AG shirt was an aspirational goal, ie get fitter so you can hit the top 5 in the NS points or top 5 in NC races in your AG. Is it the case that places aren't been taken up, meaning that the offer trickles down to... what level? .

In many cases it's a money thing - the further away the races the easier it is to get a slot as fewer will want to travel. How hard will it be to get an AG slot at the worlds in Canada next year I wounder? Nor very hard I'd say.

I'm torn on the issue, I think being able to aim for an AG slot is a great incentive for the amateur racer to aim for but without minimum standards it becomes a bit of a joke in some cases. As pointed out above, you could 'qualify' for the worlds on the basis of a last place in your one and only tri as long as you are a TI member, and that is just plain wrong.

Oryx

bryangiggsy wrote: »

The National Series is not weighted properly to ensure fair qualification . Different races different fields different points.

Qualification should be based on 1 race.

To qualify to race Sprint worlds you must come in the top 3 of your age group at the Irish Sprint National Championships in the year you race

Same for Olympic. U must come in the top 3 in your age group at the National Olympic Distance Champs.

But are those in the top 3 bothering to apply to do the worlds?

fluboy

"The thoughts of an Irish competitor on the course with a beer in hand annoyed me"

Did this annoy you?

Kurt Godel

tunney wrote: »

But that defeats the whole person of Age Group racing (not saying I agree with that either)

I guess it does. Or shows them up for the bit of silliness they are- plenty of M40s beating M25s as it stands.

bryangiggsy

fluboy wrote: »

"The thoughts of an Irish competitor on the course with a beer in hand annoyed me"

Did this annoy you?

What country is he representing?

pgibbo

Oryx wrote: »

But are those in the top 3 bothering to apply to do the worlds?

Apart from Kevin Thornton, I don't believe they are. I could be wrong there but I don't think anyone else that finished top 3 in a NS race traveled.

fluboy

He is representing Austrailia.

In the same way that Nicolas Roche and Dan Martin represent Ireland while cycling for a professional cycling team.

catweazle

fluboy wrote: »

He is representing Austrailia.

I would suggest he is representing Lotto-Belisol here.

bryangiggsy

fluboy wrote: »

He is representing Austrailia.

In the same way that Nicolas Roche and Dan Martin represent Ireland while cycling for a professional cycling team.

So tell me how the picture is related? Does the relation end at the beer in the hand?

Huff n Puff

I am going to take all this down and let Tunney become the Boards triathlon villain again.

mossym

pgibbo wrote: »

Apart from Kevin Thornton, I don't believe they are. I could be wrong there but I don't think anyone else that finished top 3 in a NS race traveled.

Andree Walkin was the only other on that sprung to mind that went but not sure she finished top 3 this year, could be wrong.

fluboy

catweazle wrote: »

I would suggest he is representing Lotto-Belisol here.

The caption under the picture that I found is "The Australian cyclist Adam Hansen fully enjoyed the madness in the Tour de France on Thursday 18th of July"


Anyway I am only asking you why a picture of an Irish athlete holding a beer would annoy you. The picture from the Tour shows you that an athlete competing at the highest level, in the toughest stage of the race in the hardest race on the planet did the exact same thing as the Irish fella did.

From what I know this lad had a bad race, his race was over so he decided to make the most of it and have a bit of crack along the way. IMO it was a great picture

tunney

fluboy wrote: »

The caption under the picture that I found is "The Australian cyclist Adam Hansen fully enjoyed the madness in the Tour de France on Thursday 18th of July"


Anyway I am only asking you why a picture of an Irish athlete holding a beer would annoy you. The picture from the Tour shows you that an athlete competing at the highest level, in the toughest stage of the race in the hardest race on the planet did the exact same thing as the Irish fella did.

From what I know this lad had a bad race, his race was over so he decided to make the most of it and have a bit of crack along the way. IMO it was a great picture

Because the "athlete" in the Irish trisuit (I'm going to guess was one of the "other kind" of athletes with a physique to match) was d1cking about when his sole goal *should* have been finishing time.

Hansen's, and indeed all pro cyclists, job is not necessarily to win but to get as much positive publicity for their sponsors as possible. That may be by winning a stag or it may be as someone on a team domiciled in a massive beer drinking country taking a slug of beer on the second pass up Alp d'Huez. I'll venture a guess that alot of posters never heard of Hansen nor Lotto Belisol outside of this photo.

bryangiggsy

fluboy wrote: »

The caption under the picture that I found is "The Australian cyclist Adam Hansen fully enjoyed the madness in the Tour de France on Thursday 18th of July"


Anyway I am only asking you why a picture of an Irish athlete holding a beer would annoy you. The picture from the Tour shows you that an athlete competing at the highest level, in the toughest stage of the race in the hardest race on the planet did the exact same thing as the Irish fella did.

From what I know this lad had a bad race, his race was over so he decided to make the most of it and have a bit of crack along the way. IMO it was a great picture

The picture will not tell that story around the world. Will more likely reinforce the old stereotype "theres the Irish on the piss again".
Sure they dont care about representing their country. Its an embarassment imo.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

I cringe when i think back to putting my name down to "race for Ireland":rolleyes: in 2011 for the 2012 Euro AG Long Distance race in Roth. Firstly because there was no qualifying criteria which made a mockery of it and no sense of achievement, secondly i was a little naive back then, thirdly i was not going to be competitive in my AG so what was the point.
Thankfully i seen some sense and did not buy get ripped off on buying the tri suit or any other associated costs.

AG World Champs have their place but the qualification needs to be tough that we send only our best/select few...thats if they even want to, probably not.

pgibbo

Huff n Puff wrote: »

The argument in the blog post can be summed up as follows. Represent your country in age group races all you want. You can be proud of this. Just don't try and kid people into thinking it is a bigger achievement than it actually is. Don't delude yourself. You were at the 'AMATEUR World Champs' (keyword in capitals) that had a free for all entry policy in Ireland. Don't be silly and try to pass it off as the actual world champs and don't go around claiming you are in the top 100 triathletes in the world afterwards. This is called modesty. The blog post only applies to a small % of age groupers.

This reminds me of a git I overhead bragging on holidays about how he was in the top 10 for his age in triathlon in the world after the last World Champs in Auckland. Proud as punch he was :rolleyes:

traxam

Sandra Enough Tonsil wrote: »

I cringe when i think back to putting my name down to "race for Ireland":rolleyes: in 2011 for the 2012 Euro AG Long Distance race in Roth. Firstly because there was no qualifying criteria which made a mockery of it and no sense of achievement, secondly i was a little naive back then, thirdly i was not going to be competitive in my AG so what was the point.
Thankfully i seen some sense and did not buy get ripped off on buying the tri suit or any other associated costs.

AG World Champs have their place but the qualification needs to be tough that we send only our best/select few...thats if they even want to, probably not.

<snip>

tunney

traxam wrote: »

<Snip>

Yes yes he did. He won his age group.

traxam

tunney wrote: »

Yes yes he did. He won his age group.

LOL

Oryx

Before I knew how it worked, I used to think that AG qualifying was hard, and worth something. I thought it would be something to aspire to after years doing this stuff. Until I looked at the criteria quite recently, and realised it was a bit of a racket, with people qualifying for distances they had never even raced before, let alone qualified in.

It has to be all about the money, to attempt to send such a number of athletes from such a small country. And I know there is a finite amount of really good triathletes in this country, because you see the same faces at the sharp end of every race. And to be fair, I think they must see the worlds for what they are, and they don't go.

BTH

Oryx wrote: »

Before I knew how it worked, I used to think that AG qualifying was hard, and worth something. I thought it would be something to aspire to after years doing this stuff. Until I looked at the criteria quite recently, and realised it was a bit of a racket, with people qualifying for distances they had never even raced before, let alone qualified in.

It has to be all about the money, to attempt to send such a number of athletes from such a small country. And I know there is a finite amount of really good triathletes in this country, because you see the same faces at the sharp end of every race. And to be fair, I think they must see the worlds for what they are, and they don't go.

I used to think this, hence my publicly stated goal at the start of 2012 of qualifying for London this year. The ease at which people were signing up for Athlone in 2010 didn't really register for me at the time as that was only my second race. I figured qualifying for London would be difficult enough given its close proximity.

Turns out I qualified with ease, it was never in doubt. I had a great year in 2012 anyway, but when I realised how easy it was to qualify, and then saw the ridiculous entry fees, it made not being able to go (because of illness this year) much easier to take and I'm not sure I'd bother looking at the possibility again.

Oryx

What were the costs involved, BTH? I never got that far.

sconhome

Oryx wrote: »

What were the costs involved, BTH? I never got that far.

Savage!!

Reserve your intention - €20/25 (?)
Race registration £200 odd
Accomodation anywhere from £100 per night
Food & drink
Flights
Bike transport

If you got out of it for €1200 you did well.

BTH

Oryx wrote: »

What were the costs involved, BTH? I never got that far.

Race entry fee were (copied from e-mail from TI)

Standard Distance: £195 (€225)
Sprint Distance: £185 (€215)
Aquathlon: £79 (€91)
Standard Distance + Aquathlon: £224 (€260)
Sprint Distance + Aquathlon: £214 (€247)

Throw in a new trisuit on top of that.

I had withdrawn early enough so I don't know what other costs may have been involved.

Oryx

BTH wrote: »

Race entry fee were (copied from e-mail from TI)

Standard Distance: £195 (€225)
Sprint Distance: £185 (€215)
Aquathlon: £79 (€91)
Standard Distance + Aquathlon: £224 (€260)
Sprint Distance + Aquathlon: £214 (€247)

Throw in a new trisuit on top of that.

I had withdrawn early enough so I don't know what other costs may have been involved.

Tbh, it seems cheap compared to all the Ironman kerching.

tunney

Oryx wrote: »

Tbh, it seems cheap compared to all the Ironman kerching.

Ah but you cannot get an ITU Worlds tattoo. Nor an ITU branded bed.

Oryx

tunney wrote: »

Ah but you cannot get an ITU Worlds tattoo. Nor an ITU branded bed.

Wow! Take my money WTC, for I simply must sleep like an Ironman!

RacoonQueen

BTH wrote: »

Race entry fee were (copied from e-mail from TI)

Standard Distance: £195 (€225)
Sprint Distance: £185 (€215)
Aquathlon: £79 (€91)
Standard Distance + Aquathlon: £224 (€260)
Sprint Distance + Aquathlon: £214 (€247)

Throw in a new trisuit on top of that.

I had withdrawn early enough so I don't know what other costs may have been involved.

Jesus

Peterx

It's a great set-up.
Those with the cash get to play and at the same time pay for those with the talent.
What's not to like?

We have something similar in hillrunning. Anyone can get to run for Ireland once they are over 35 in the masters events. A great weekend away. Where the hillrunning organisers let themselves down is not milking the runners for every cent they have:D

ChickenBalls

BTH wrote: »

Race entry fee were (copied from e-mail from TI)

Standard Distance: £195 (€225)
Sprint Distance: £185 (€215)
Aquathlon: £79 (€91)
Standard Distance + Aquathlon: £224 (€260)
Sprint Distance + Aquathlon: £214 (€247)

Throw in a new trisuit on top of that.

I had withdrawn early enough so I don't know what other costs may have been involved.

I actually went to London and spent a bloody fortune - the prices above are correct plus the Tri suit cost €95 and €10 to get my name printed on which I'll probably never wear again unless I go abroad to a race which I hope to do next year. The Expo was a rip off too for the most part...

Accommodation cost me €400 for 2 nights but it was the Crown Plaza and that was cheap as I got a special rate cause there web site screwed up the currency conversion - try it!

After reading these posts I am one of the guys who didn't qualify and now realise how easy it is to get into one of these things. I came 92nd out of 106 in my AG which I'm proud of as I beat a few Mexicans! Anyway, what I do take out of it (apart from a big hole in my pocket) is the experience of this size of event and the determination to qualify legitimately so as to compete for top 20 - maybe Chicago 2015 but doing this will keep me focused for the off season ahead for sure.

PS. I do agree that it should be tougher to qualify for these types of events especially for the people who put the effort in.