When did indifference to child abuse become ok?

L.Jenkins

My fiancée just read an article describing how a 4 year old was starved, beaten and murdered by an alcoholic mother and abusive step father. When the fúck did turning a blind eye to this shít become ok?

A four-year-old boy murdered by his 'callous and wretched' mother and step-father was 'invisible' to the authorities who missed dozens of chances to save him, an official report revealed today.
Daniel Pelka was starved, tortured and then beaten to death in an ‘incomprehensible’ campaign of cruelty by Magdalena Luczak, 27, and Mariusz Krezolek, 34.
It has emerged police were called to his home 27 times in his short life as his drunk mother got into violent rows with various lovers, often with the schoolboy watching.
Before his death Daniel resembled a ‘concentration camp victim’, weighed just 11kg and was so hungry teachers saw him eating food from bins and the school sandpit.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2423264/Four-year-old-Daniel-Pelka-beaten-starved-death-invisible-authorities-missed-chance-chance-save-report-finds.html

Nabber

It didnt

DamagedTrax

idiots all over sky news today trying to deflect the blame for this. im not even sure any of them cared about the child as long as their asses were covered.

ScumLord

Millions of years ago. Romans and Greeks threw their babies on the rubbish heap to die of exposure if they didn't want them.

It's only recently enough we've put real value on human life. It's only in the last generation we've stopped beating our kids into submission.

L.Jenkins

DamagedTrax wrote: »

idiots all over sky news today trying to deflect the blame for this. im not even sure any of them cared about the child as long as their asses were covered.

Someone needs to grow some balls and step up to plate to take responsibility.

Anytime I see the faces of those 2 b******* on the TV, I want to punch the screen.

SKY interviewed some woman today, head of some authority. Her first words before the interviewer started "it wasn't my fault" show some respect and professionalism goddammit!

Sh1tbag OToole

The term "child abuse" is thrown around too freely now.

Light up a fag inside a car with a child in the back .. child abuse!

Bring em to mass on sunday.. child abuse!

L.Jenkins

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

The term "child abuse" is thrown around too freely now.

Light up a fag inside a car with a child in the back .. child abuse!

Bring em to mass on sunday.. child abuse!

You're completely going off on a tangent. How does tossing a term around compare to murdering a child?

Legs.Eleven

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

The term "child abuse" is thrown around too freely now.

Light up a fag inside a car with a child in the back .. child abuse!

Bring em to mass on sunday.. child abuse!

Ye don't call beating, torturing then killing a child child abuse?

If you're joking, it's not funny.

everlast75

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

The term "child abuse" is thrown around too freely now.

Light up a fag inside a car with a child in the back .. child abuse!

Bring em to mass on sunday.. child abuse!

Well the second one- in fairness, there is a real possibility...

L.Jenkins

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

The term "child abuse" is thrown around too freely now.

Light up a fag inside a car with a child in the back .. child abuse!

Bring em to mass on sunday.. child abuse!

On another note, when does a child choose second hand smoke? When does a child make a conscious decision to go to mass?

Turtwig

ScumLord wrote: »

Millions of years ago.

Romans and Greeks

I think you mean thousands. :P

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Itzy wrote: »

On another note, when does a child choose second hand smoke? When does a child make a conscious decision to go to mass?

hrm... poe's law or not poe's law

That child suffered, really suffered for all of his short little life. He wasn't dropped and died instantly. He was tortured, starved, fed ****ing salt!

Why do some of you have to make stupid unfunny comments about everything? There's a time and a place,

crockholm

So many missed opportunities to have saved the poor childs life.

Headmaster sees a dangerously underweight four year old eating food out of a bin and carries on irregardless?

Tragic.

L.Jenkins

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

hrm... poe's law or not poe's law

Yeah I know of Poe's law, but how does relate to the murder of a child or forcing undesirable decisions on them, i.e. passive smoking.

Sh1tbag OToole

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

The term "child abuse" is thrown around too freely now.

Light up a fag inside a car with a child in the back .. child abuse!

Bring em to mass on sunday.. child abuse!

Mod

That's not what this thread is about and well you know it.

Quit trolling if you want up keep posting.

HondaSami

''Despite a series of appalling blunders by police, social workers, teachers and NHS staff in Coventry, no-one has been sacked or even disciplined for their failure to protect him''

The reason no one will be sacked is because no one will accept responsibility it's all about passing the book, same here, his teachers should have done something about it and those who turned a bind eye should be ashamed of themselves.
His mother was/is an evil bitch, how could she hate her own child so much, to see how he suffered is heartbreaking.

shopaholic01

Another case like the baby P case that was supposed to be the catalyst for change.

A couple of things probably contributed to this - shortage of social workers, time and resourced wasted on an overload of paperwork, lazy investigation etc.

However, a battered, emaciated child can slip through the cracks in the system is mind boggling. It really is a poor reflection on child protection policies in the UK.

L.Jenkins

HondaSami wrote: »

The reason no one will be sacked is because no one will accept responsibility it's all about passing the book, same here, his teachers should have done something about it and those who turned a bind eye should be ashamed of themselves.
His mother was/is an evil bitch, how could she hate her own child so much, to see how he suffered is heartbreaking.

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Another case like the baby P case that was supposed to be the catalyst for change.

A couple of things probably contributed to this - shortage of social workers, time and resourced wasted on an overload of paperwork, lazy investigation etc.

However, a battered, emaciated child can slip through the cracks in the system is mind boggling. It really is a poor reflection on child protection policies in the UK.

Both Ireland and the UK seriously need to look at child protection law. An investigation in to the failing of departments in protecting the child needs to take place. No one should get off the hook.

whatdoicare

I don't understand this at all - if one social worker had even asked to see his room there would have been no doubt of abuse.....why are there so many obstacles to saving a child??

Surely it's better for a social worker to take a child out of a situation and be proven wrong in abuse than to leave them there and be proven right??

If there's any small bit of doubt, a child should be taken out of the situation straight away until there is no doubt that the child is in safe hands. Forget hurt feelings and all this political correctness ****e.

I don't understand all this keeping a child in a bad situation no matter what until there's solid evidence or the child is killed. It's obviously not working!

ScumLord

Jernal wrote: »

I think you mean thousands. :P

No I meant millions and used an ancient culture as a reference to how bad people where in the past. I wasn't stating ancient times were a million years ago.

Femme_Fatale

whatdoicare wrote: »

If there's any small bit of doubt, a child should be taken out of the situation straight away until there is no doubt that the child is in safe hands. Forget hurt feelings and all this political correctness ****e.

I doubt it's to do with hurt feelings/political correctness - it's easy to say how it should be done, and no doubt that's how social workers would hope to do it, but you can't know unless you're actually dealing with such cases and all they entail.
I don't understand either though how there are such obstacles to saving a child.

GalwayGuy2

I don't care if she's an alcoholic, she's abused and murdered a child and she should be called an abuser.

I doubt it's to do with hurt feelings/political correctness - it's easy to say how it should be done, and no doubt that's how social workers would hope to do it, but you can't know unless you're actually dealing with such cases and all they entail.
I don't understand either though how there are such obstacles to saving a child.

I'd say it's because the childcare system is only a step above a moderately abusive home.

SusieBlue

He was dead, locked in a room for 36 hours before his mother even noticed. The police were called to their house 26 times in the months leading up to that poor baby's death and nobody removed him from the house.

His teachers saw him eating apple and pear cores from the compost bin in school and when they questioned his mother, she told them to reprimand him if they caught him doing it again because he was a greedy boy and was already overeating at home.

This keeps happening. I thought a hard lesson was learned with Baby P but obviously not. I can't emphasise enough how sad and emotional this little boy's story makes me feel.

Femme_Fatale

The pictures of him in that article are unbearable...

whatdoicare

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I doubt it's to do with hurt feelings/political correctness - it's easy to say how it should be done, and no doubt that's how social workers would hope to do it, but you can't know unless you're actually dealing with such cases and all they entail.
I don't understand either though how there are such obstacles to saving a child.

That's it though - it shouldn't matter the circumstances or what it entails, it should be a case of: Child could be abused, we're not sure but there's some question about it - child is removed from home, everyone questioned, environment sussed out, garda records looked at and then, situation assessed and a decision about the childs safety made.

How it seems to be done now is: Child abuse suspected, child left in situation for months or years on end while parents are half questioned, no follow up done properly, no real assessment, child only removed when situation is absolutely dire.

It's all backwards.

SusieBlue

I'd definitely support more rigorous monitoring of all parents in Ireland/UK by social services. Yearly checks, maybe, or random call outs. Reports from teachers and schools. Any decent parent with nothing to hide will have nothing to worry about, and scum like those 2 will have more chance of getting caught.

That poor baby must have been so scared, not one person in his life to love him or protect him, he lived his short life in pain and fear. Its so upsetting to even think about.

Czarcasm

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I'd definitely support more rigorous monitoring of all parents in Ireland/UK by social services. Yearly checks, maybe, or random call outs. Reports from teachers and schools. Any decent parent with nothing to hide will have nothing to worry about, and scum like those 2 will have more chance of getting caught.

That poor baby must have been so scared, not one person in his life to love him or protect him, he lived his short life in pain and fear. Its so upsetting to even think about.

Social care services are vastly underfunded as it is, and because of this lack of resources and all sorts of bureaucracy and then privacy laws, family law... I could go on all night, but suffice to say it basically comes down to numbers- too many children and families in need of support, but the support just isn't there, because the funding isn't there, and even then, they're expected to work with their hands tied behind their backs and a ball gag in their mouths, while walking a tightrope policy that contradicts itself - protect the child, but try to keep the family together.

This individual case is only one that made the papers because of the fact the child eventually died, but this is just one case among many thousands where the abuse continues for years, and nobody wants to say anything because people would rather turn a blind eye as it's not really any of their business and they'd rather not be involved.

I don't think it's right to play the blame game just because it's so easy to peg the blame on underfunded, understaffed and over-worked authorities, when how many members of the public would've seen that child on a daily basis and thought "Poor child", yet done nothing, not even made as much as a phone call to notify the authorities of their concerns, but kept it to themselves.

emmabrighton

I was awake thinking about that poor little boy last night. I was so sad when I saw the class photos where he was smiling. He looked happy but was masking all that pain. My heart breaks for him. His parents are supposed to be the people who are guaranteed to love and protect him no matter what.

I don't think the alcoholic reference in the story has any relevance, to be honest. Its like saying that his mother was a smoker or a gambler. Alcoholic or not, smoker or not, gambler or not, everyone knows child abuse is wrong. She is just an evil sadist. I hope that b*tch dies roaring - though it would be too good for her.

I think too that it is wrong to scape goat and that it is our fault as a society that this goes on. I remember only a few weeks ago seeing a young girl - definitely in her teens - with a new born baby in her arms - and the baby was small, definitely not an eight pounder. She was hanging around the local spar showing off her new baby to her other teenager friends. It was freezing. I had the heating turned on in my car. I watched her for about 3 or 4 minutes before my partner came out of the shop and was thinking she should go home with her tiny little baby. I didn't say anything. Cos, like the poster above said, i certainly didn't want to get involved. The thought of a group of teens hurling abuse at me for criticizing one of their friends? No thanks.

Obviously not the same thing, but the point is that we probably see things that are not right every day and do and say nothing because we dont want to get involved.

tritium

Itzy wrote: »

Both Ireland and the UK seriously need to look at child protection law. An investigation in to the failing of departments in protecting the child needs to take place. No one should get off the hook.

The reason things like this happen, at least in part, is because of the reaction when things like this happen and the pendelum effect it creates. Most folks over the age of 30 will remember the tabloid led abuse social services got in the UK many years ago for operating an overzealous approach to abuse. Children were taken from their families on the slightest suspicion and families were actively ruined. Now the pendelum has swing to the other extreme and social services are terrified to intervene and zealously guard the human rights of the parents.

The sad reality is if boards was posting back then many the posters now acting outraged at the failures here would be equally outraged at the other extreme. Unfortunately people are very slow to argue for a suitably proportionate system where those charged with protecting children don't have to spend time actively covering their asses in case they're scapegoated by one or another lobby group.

As another poster said, the people responsible for Daniel Pelka's death were the two animals he was unfortunate enough to call his parents. No one else intentionally let him be harmed so the most constructive question is where did the system that's in place fail.

MonaPizza

ScumLord wrote: »

Millions of years ago. Romans and Greeks threw their babies on the rubbish heap to die of exposure if they didn't want them.

It's only recently enough we've put real value on human life. It's only in the last generation we've stopped beating our kids into submission.

Really? Were humans even around millions of years ago? Was there even such thing as a Greek or a Roman back then?

token101

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I'd definitely support more rigorous monitoring of all parents in Ireland/UK by social services. Yearly checks, maybe, or random call outs. Reports from teachers and schools. Any decent parent with nothing to hide will have nothing to worry about, and scum like those 2 will have more chance of getting caught.

So 3 or 4 parents kill their child out of a total of 30 or so million and now you want random call outs every year to every parent in the country? The cost alone is enough to make that a completely ridiculous idea and a gross overreaction.

SEPT 23 1989

I try not to let stories like this in if you know what i mean:(

sbsquarepants

ScumLord wrote: »

Millions of years ago. Romans and Greeks threw their babies on the rubbish heap to die of exposure if they didn't want them.

It's only recently enough we've put real value on human life. It's only in the last generation we've stopped beating our kids into submission.

Eh, millions of years ago, there were no Romans, Greeks, Rubbish heaps or babies to throw on them.

Frank Lee Midere

emmabrighton wrote: »

I was awake thinking about that poor little boy last night. I was so sad when I saw the class photos where he was smiling. He looked happy but was masking all that pain. My heart breaks for him. His parents are supposed to be the people who are guaranteed to love and protect him no matter what.

I don't think the alcoholic reference in the story has any relevance, to be honest. Its like saying that his mother was a smoker or a gambler. Alcoholic or not, smoker or not, gambler or not, everyone knows child abuse is wrong. She is just an evil sadist. I hope that b*tch dies roaring - though it would be too good for her.

I think too that it is wrong to scape goat and that it is our fault as a society that this goes on. I remember only a few weeks ago seeing a young girl - definitely in her teens - with a new born baby in her arms - and the baby was small, definitely not an eight pounder. She was hanging around the local spar showing off her new baby to her other teenager friends. It was freezing. I had the heating turned on in my car. I watched her for about 3 or 4 minutes before my partner came out of the shop and was thinking she should go home with her tiny little baby. I didn't say anything. Cos, like the poster above said, i certainly didn't want to get involved. The thought of a group of teens hurling abuse at me for criticizing one of their friends? No thanks.

Obviously not the same thing, but the point is that we probably see things that are not right every day and do and say nothing because we dont want to get involved.

Which is why we pay people to get involved.

emmabrighton

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Which is why we pay people to get involved.

But then you get people passing the buck, and not coming forward with pertinent information - I didn't ring child protection services about the newborn in a baby grow out in the freezing cold. What would I have said? There is some young girl hanging out on a street corner at 9pm with an inappropriately dressed baby in her arms. No I dont know the mothers name, no I dont know the childs name. What could I do? But surely the young girls mother knew she had gone out with the infant. But then maybe that young girls mother is as irresponsible as she was. Maybe she is a 30 year old grandmother and it is just a cycle perpetuating itself.

Anyway, my point is if neighbours or family members had contacted authorities about the living conditions of the child, would there not have been more evidence to dig a little deeper. Especially with the child coming to school with black eyes? Oh my god!

My niece fell off her bouncing castle and broke her arm. My sister in law brought her to the ER and they wanted to discount child abuse so had the child strip down to her underwear to look for other marks - bruises etc.

Now, why was a child with an untreated broken arm and black eyes not subject to the same rigors? It baffles me. Maybe he was seen by a doctor, maybe they found more bruises but the parents excuse of he walked into a door or fell down the stairs was believed. But, if there was more of a history of negative reports, perhaps this wouldnt have go awry.

Like another poster said, this has only been highlighted because the child died. What of all the other children out there today who are going into school with tender ribs or an empty belly? How is this childs death going to impact on them? It probably won't, their parents will still be believed and the children will grow up in horrific circumstances and keyboard warriors - me included - will bang on about social injustice but nothing will change...

It is so sad :9

steddyeddy

I think a lot of it relates to the "bystander effect" where everyday people who see something bad happen to someone don't act up in case they're next. When police and social workers suffer from it then it becomes a problem.

steddyeddy

Nabber wrote: »

It didnt

Unfortunately it did. The measure of somethings acceptablity is how tolerated it is and exhibit a, b and c in the last twenty years dictate that indifference is very ok.

Gyalist

The mummified corpse of a four-year-old boy was found in a cot in his mother's bedroom almost two years after he starved to death, a jury has heard.

Hamzah Khan's body was still dressed in a babygrow when police made the discovery at his house in Bradford, West Yorkshire,

Details of how Hamzah's body was found, in September 2011, were outlined when his mother, Amanda Hutton, went on trial at Bradford crown court on Wednesday.

Hutton, 43, denies her son's manslaughter

Another case before the courts today.

LINK

L.Jenkins

Czarcasm wrote: »

...I don't think it's right to play the blame game just because it's so easy to peg the blame on underfunded, understaffed and over-worked authorities, when how many members of the public would've seen that child on a daily basis and thought "Poor child", yet done nothing, not even made as much as a phone call to notify the authorities of their concerns, but kept it to themselves.

That's called indifference, something worse than evil. Something could have been done and people chose to turn a blind eye.

Gyalist wrote: »

Another case before the courts today.

LINK

My fiancée and I can't conceive and monsters like her can have kids left, right and centre. Písses me off. Sorry for the rant.

[QUOTE=Itzy;

My fiancée and I can't conceive and monsters like her can have kids left, right and centre. Písses me off. Sorry for the rant.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to hear that, cant blame you for getting pissed off when you see reports like these stories.
They are beyond cruel. Hard for people to get the head around.

oldyouth

ScumLord wrote: »

Millions of years ago. Romans and Greeks threw their babies on the rubbish heap to die of exposure if they didn't want them.

It's only recently enough we've put real value on human life. It's only in the last generation we've stopped beating our kids into submission.

That's bollicks, it hasn't been around for many generations in more enlightened families

jmayo

The suffering that poor child went through, but it isn't the first case.
It is terrifying to think what humans are capable of and with their own flesh and blood.
How anyone can do those thigs to small innocent child unable to protect itself.
You can't label them animals because animals, particularly the mother, usually shows compassion and care for their young.

I do sincely hope the bast**ds that did it get their just deserts in prison.

njs030

My daughter had a broken arm 3 times between the ages of 2 and 6.

After the second time I was expecting questions to be asked but nothing happened, the third time her previous injury was seen on the x-ray and commented on (there's an old break on the wrist type comment) and still nothing!

I was completely shocked that none of the teachers, doctors or nurses had asked questions or referred it to social services! If three breaks in a small child's arm doesn't raise any red flags then where is the starting point?

ScumLord

MonaPizza wrote: »

Really? Were humans even around millions of years ago? Was there even such thing as a Greek or a Roman back then?

Humans weren't around a million years ago no, we arrived at humanity with basic animal violence in toe. It's taken tens of thousands of years to work that violence out of our societies and we still haven't achieved it world wide. It has gotten a hell of alot better though.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Eh, millions of years ago, there were no Romans, Greeks, Rubbish heaps or babies to throw on them.

You must be skipping pages I've already clarified what I meant by that.

L.Jenkins

jmayo wrote: »

The suffering that poor child went through, but it isn't the first case.
It is terrifying to think what humans are capable of and with their own flesh and blood.
How anyone can do those thigs to small innocent child unable to protect itself.
You can't label them animals because animals, particularly the mother, usually shows compassion and care for their young.

I do sincely hope the bast**ds that did it get their just deserts in prison.

I'm sorry if I have insulted animals and you're right, Savages would be a more apt term to describe them.

Corcaigh84

crockholm wrote: »

irregardless?

This is abuse of my eyes

Donadea Leo

that poor child, hard to imagine how much suffering he went through. System could always do with improving but child abuse will always happen, it always has it always will. No social worker can take a child into care without going to court so that complicates what looks in hindsight like an obvious solution. The court would no doubt ask for psychological reports on parents, educational reports on the child and a level of objective evidence that this child is at risk of significant harm. If a child is then taken into care, the outcomes are often pretty poor regardless of how good the foster carers are. That said, this does smack of people not doing a good enough job, for whatever reason and they are as likely to be organisational, resource reasons as individual worker failure. There are no simple solutions to these tragic incidents and i don't think we ll ever illiminate them entirely.

allibastor

DamagedTrax wrote: »

idiots all over sky news today trying to deflect the blame for this. im not even sure any of them cared about the child as long as their asses were covered.

It is true and a very sad state of life now, People wont help cause theya re afraid of it coming back on them. Homecarers wont help you lift or move things as it might damage, People on the street wont help you with anything in case they get blamed. People wont make the first step anymore in cases like these.

Read a magazine before about something similar in the UK, a little girl was starved in her room and died as a result, she was at the window a good lot and people knew she was there, but never saw the parents with her or saw her leave the house. All fingers got pointed after she died, but no one said anything. Makes me sick to be human.

allibastor

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10317488/Four-year-old-boy-found-mummified-in-cot-after-starving-to-death-court-hears.html

Another case of it.