Advice on buying Builders Finish

bellucio

Hi guys
About 5/6 years ago we saw the perfect house, (1 of 3 in a small development) but being the time is was the house totally blew our budget. So we sensibly decided to leave it. Since then we have stayed put but kept an eye in the three houses. Two have since sold and the one remaining is now at a level where we could afford it. A price drop of 66% since we saw it all those years ago ! The garden is complete along with a tarmac drive and garage so nothing to do outside. First fix plumbing/electric/ carpentry is done, plastering is completed, Electricity is working. It's a 3000 sq ft house, on mains water with own Bio cycle sewage treatment plant. UFH downstairs, rads upstairs. So based on that info I have a few queries.

1. what are the pitfalls /watch outs when looking at a builders finish that is around so long?
2. Does the buyer have to pay council fees if the property is purchased unfinished?
3. The chimney has been boarded up and plastered over...Could this cause a problem with damp anywhere in the chimney brest?
4. There is no BER done. I know it would need to be done but how good is it at a builders finish stage? Would it be only based on plans ? Would the assessor know the cavity insulation details? Would engineers report from the time it was built and/or plans be a better option?
5. What are the option around ventilation ? Is it possible to fit a HRV system now or is it too late. Don't want a situation where the house is TOO insulated with no ventilation, leading to mould growth.
6. How about Home automation, too late or right time (only looking at sound and vision on this one, nothing fancy about lighting or anything like that)
7. Is insurance required on site to get those final bits completed ?
8. I would be hoping to have it all sorted out internally for around €50k. Is this feasible ? Rough prices, (based purely on reviews of boards,general idea from friends ,no quotes received, am including labour)
€15k - €20k Kitchen /utility and appliances
€7k Tiles (kitchen/hall/sun room)
€7k Wooden flooring (solid in living rooms, laminate bedrooms)
€3k Door/Skirting/Architrave (12 Doors)
€2k Walk in wardrobe
€2k Gate
€1k Alarm
€3k Bathroom (1 main,2*en suite ,1* downstairs ) Fittings & tiling
€2k Fireplace & stove
€2k paint interior only
9. Am I right in thinking that other fees buying & selling (solicitor,estate agent, BER) would come to around €10k ?

Apologies about long winded post, but any reply's very welcome

Thanks

BryanF

bellucio wrote: »

Hi guys
About 5/6 years ago we saw the perfect house, (1 of 3 in a small development) but being the time is was the house totally blew our budget. So we sensibly decided to leave it. Since then we have stayed put but kept an eye in the three houses. Two have since sold and the one remaining is now at a level where we could afford it. A price drop of 66% since we saw it all those years ago ! The garden is complete along with a tarmac drive and garage so nothing to do outside. First fix plumbing/electric/ carpentry is done, plastering is completed, Electricity is working. It's a 3000 sq ft house, on mains water with own Bio cycle sewage treatment plant. UFH downstairs, rads upstairs. So based on that info I have a few queries.

1. what are the pitfalls /watch outs when looking at a builders finish that is around so long?
2. Does the buyer have to pay council fees if the property is purchased unfinished?
3. The chimney has been boarded up and plastered over...Could this cause a problem with damp anywhere in the chimney brest?
4. There is no BER done. I know it would need to be done but how good is it at a builders finish stage? Would it be only based on plans ? Would the assessor know the cavity insulation details? Would engineers report from the time it was built and/or plans be a better option?
5. What are the option around ventilation ? Is it possible to fit a HRV system now or is it too late. Don't want a situation where the house is TOO insulated with no ventilation, leading to mould growth.
6. How about Home automation, too late or right time (only looking at sound and vision on this one, nothing fancy about lighting or anything like that)
7. Is insurance required on site to get those final bits completed ?
8. I would be hoping to have it all sorted out internally for around €50k. Is this feasible ?
9. Am I right in thinking that other fees buying & selling (solicitor,estate agent, BER) would come to around €10k ?

Apologies about long winded post, but any reply's very welcome

Thanks

1. get structural cert from eng who oversaw build & building regs and perhaps quality much lower then
2. dont know what you mea n by council fees?- id assume any fees associated with the build, prior to you purchasing, should be handled by the previous owner
3. possibly, site inspection & opening up would tell more
4. BER, how good: poor id presume;; based on walk through & plans;; s/he'd try to figure out what was installed, based on building regs at the time; both are required : id error on the side of caution
5. DCMEV might be a better option- presuming windows and general air-tightness are only average ( id wouldn't assume there is enough insulation at all!) but how feasibly is running even limited central duct system?
6. i thought your budget was 50K? s wifi system might be the way to go (more experience people may advise, but id expect it to cost more than your current budget would allow)
7. yes, note the currently H&S regulations also
8. im not a qs - be more realistic about your kitchen, air-tightness, MVHR, automation etc and it might be
9. dont know - not trying to be smart here but it may depend on how much hand-holding you require and/or how much you trust a builder

you question and scope is very broad, i think you might want to start with a QS who'll then get eng, arch & BER input - good solictor 'due-dalliance is a must in this instance & arch planning review/ insulation review

bellucio

Firstly thanks BryanF for taking the time to get back to me,,,,

BryanF wrote: »

[*] get structural cert from eng who oversaw build & building regs and perhaps quality much lower then

Good advice. House would have been built back around 2006/2007 so regs less then without a doubt...

BryanF wrote: »

[*]dont know what you mea n by council fees?- id assume any fees associated with the build, prior to you purchasing, should be handled by the previous owner

Development contributions/ Council fees, seen the same thing called different names..But yes, I was assuming the same that they should be handled already...Just looking for confirmation.

BryanF wrote: »

[*]possibly, site inspection & opening up would tell more

OK...

BryanF wrote: »

[*]BER, how good: poor id presume;; based on walk through & plans;; s/he'd try to figure out what was installed, based on building regs at the time; both are required : id error on the side of caution

err on the side of caution in what respect ? That the BER wont be great , or that the insulation wont be up to much

BryanF wrote: »

[*]DCMEV might be a better option- presuming windows and general air-tightness are only average ( id wouldn't assume there is enough insulation at all!) but how feasibly is running even limited central duct system?

DCMEV ? Not sure what option you mean here ? I thought the main ventilation controls were Mechanical heat recovery ventilation (HRV) or Demand Control Ventilation (DCV)
Windows are double glazed, not sure about general air tightness. Would need to do a test to confirm.. The last thing I want is a (hopefully) well insulated house and having to put holes in the walls for ventilation

BryanF wrote: »

[*]i thought your budget was 50K? s wifi system might be the way to go (more experience people may advise, but id expect it to cost more than your current budget would allow)

Automation system is a very nice to have. Just wondering is Automation possible if the property is slabbed and plastered...I'm guessing not but If it was possible and could be fitted within the budget, I would like it. In IT myself so setting up WIFI wouldn't be the greatest challenge for me (S**t at DIY so wouldn't be able to do any other part of a build!!)

BryanF wrote: »

[*]yes, note the currently H&S regulations also

Where can I find those ?

BryanF wrote: »

[*]im not a qs - be more realistic about your kitchen, air-tightness, MVHR, automation etc and it might be

Up to €20k not realistic for a kitchen (including appliances ?) Would have that was enough? Like I said automation I can live without, but air tightness and ventilation would be essential i would think.
I have done up what I think are some what accurate prices...Am I way off with these ?
Tiles Materials @ €40sq m
Labour @ €20 sq m

Wooden Floor
Material solid @ 60 sq m, Laminate @ 30 sq m
Labour solid @ €15 sq m, laminate @ €10 sq m

Skirting/Door/Architrave
Skirting
material @ €12 per m
Labour @ €4 per m

Door + architrave
material Architrave @ €30, Door @ €100
labour Architrave + Door @ €100

Would be hoping to have lower carpentry labour costs - have two brothers in law in the carpentry trade.

BryanF wrote: »

[*]dont know - not trying to be smart here but it may depend on how much hand-holding you require and/or how much you trust a builder

Again I am presuming (and maybe been a bit naive) but the stage this property is at, I would have thought it doesn't need a "builder" as such any more. It should just be a case or organising trades (and materials) for second fixes/kitchen supplier etc....Or am I missing something ?
As I said two brothers in law in the carpentry trade, so would be looking to them for 2nd fix and a reduction in the labour cost!!

Thanks again!!

BryanF

hi, you're getting into specific's and really need on site assessment from qs on cost and eng on strcuture and arch on BER/insulation as i intimated above

bellucio wrote: »

Good advice. House would have been built back around 2006/2007 so regs less then without a doubt...

so air-tightness in a finished house will be only 'ok' at best and more than likely not suitable for HRV thats why i suggest DCV

err on the side of caution in what respect ? That the BER wont be great , or that the insulation wont be up to much

BER, materials after the place has been empty for so long, issues with cable pulled in correctly, plumbing.. etc you name it half finised boom time home thread carefully - cant be specific without the above assessments - if it were me i take a gamble allowing for some if not all of those issues - your Qs can add risk money (provisional sums)

DCMEV ? Not sure what option you mean here ? I thought the main ventilation controls were Mechanical heat recovery ventilation (HRV) or Demand Control Ventilation (DCV)

yes DCV is what i meant

Windows are double glazed, not sure about general air tightness. Would need to do a test to confirm.. The last thing I want is a (hopefully) well insulated house and having to put holes in the walls for ventilation

you can assume on paper a C/D rating. in reality who knows if the pipework is insulated or the wall/floor insulation continuous?

Automation system is a very nice to have. Just wondering is Automation possible if the property is slabbed and plastered...I'm guessing not but If it was possible and could be fitted within the budget, I would like it. In IT myself so setting up WIFI wouldn't be the greatest challenge for me (S**t at DIY so wouldn't be able to do any other part of a build!!)

do it yourself wifi - it fits your budget;)

Where can I find those ?

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/

Up to €20k not realistic for a kitchen (including appliances ?) Would have that was enough? Like I said automation I can live without, but air tightness and ventilation would be essential i would think.
I have done up what I think are some what accurate prices...Am I way off with these ?
Tiles Materials @ €40sq m
Labour @ €20 sq m

Wooden Floor
Material solid @ 60 sq m, Laminate @ 30 sq m
Labour solid @ €15 sq m, laminate @ €10 sq m

Skirting/Door/Architrave
Skirting
material @ €12 per m
Labour @ €4 per m

Door + architrave
material Architrave @ €30, Door @ €100
labour Architrave + Door @ €100

Would be hoping to have lower carpentry labour costs - have two brothers in law in the carpentry trade.

Again I am presuming (and maybe been a bit naive) but the stage this property is at, I would have thought it doesn't need a "builder" as such any more. It should just be a case or organising trades (and materials) for second fixes/kitchen supplier etc....Or am I missing something ?

i dont know- havent seen the house, the whole 'is 50k enough' is an arbatary questinon on a forum, dont you agree? free labour is great but what is difficult to account for are the areas between trades that take time to define and get carried out when your not familiar with the house, extent of finish etc

bellucio

BryanF wrote: »

hi, you're getting into specific's and really need on site assessment from qs on cost and eng on strcuture and arch on BER/insulation as i intimated above

so air-tightness in a finished house will be only 'ok' at best and more than likely not suitable for HRV thats why i suggest DCV BER, materials after the place has been empty for so long, issues with cable pulled in correctly, plumbing.. etc you name it half finised boom time home thread carefully - cant be specific without the above assessments - if it were me i take a gamble allowing for some if not all of those issues - your Qs can add risk money (provisional sums)
yes DCV is what i meant you can assume on paper a C/D rating. in reality who knows if the pipework is insulated or the wall/floor insulation continuous?
do it yourself wifi - it fits your budget;)http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/
i dont know- havent seen the house, the whole 'is 50k enough' is an arbatary questinon on a forum, dont you agree? free labour is great but what is difficult to account for are the areas between trades that take time to define and get carried out when your not familiar with the house, extent of finish etc

You have definitely given us some food for thought there Bryanf. Personally thought BER would be higher than C or D, but everything you said makes sense when I think about it. The whole not knowing how everything was finished off in the places you can't see is the worrying bit all right.
"Is 50k enough", I was giving as much detail as I could on what research I has done myself with prices so was hoping someone would tell me I was totally off the wall or on the right track. Can see why you think its an arbitrary question all right, but don't have much more detail at the moment........and therein lies a major problem!

BryanF

bellucio wrote: »

You have definitely given us some food for thought there Bryanf. Personally thought BER would be higher than C or D, but everything you said makes sense when I think about it. The whole not knowing how everything was finished off in the places you can't see is the worrying bit all right.
"Is 50k enough", I was giving as much detail as I could on what research I has done myself with prices so was hoping someone would tell me I was totally off the wall or on the right track. Can see why you think its an arbitrary question all right, but don't have much more detail at the moment........and therein lies a major problem!

your in IT? would it be easier to work for your wages and get professional help on this? - you'll probably find it necessary when it comes to the bank anyway. as unless its a completed house they may be looking for reassurance that you can a fford to finish it and that it comply's with regs and planning etc

iverjohnston

66% drop is about right for house outside Dublin,Galway, etc.
The good thing is that you have 2 finished houses by the same builder beside, so it would be worth asking the owners what problems have arisen. The last 2 winters were mild , but they may be able to highlight any problems with insulation and plumbing.

bellucio

BryanF wrote: »

your in IT? would it be easier to work for your wages and get professional help on this? - you'll probably find it necessary when it comes to the bank anyway. as unless its a completed house they may be looking for reassurance that you can a fford to finish it and that it comply's with regs and planning etc

You have made a lot of valid points so far Bryan, so thanks. Maybe I was being over ambitious trying to work out all those figure myself with no history of construction.....I hope they arent wildly out, If we decide to go down this route, first port of call so would be the QS. Out of curiosity how much do QS charge these days ?

Am I right i thinking we would need the following people involved so
QS
Engineer to check current state (+ original engineers report)
Enery company to do check Air Tightness and check the insulation
Possible DCV


@iverjohnston. That was another one of my ideas. Mrs Bellucio wasnt too keen on idea of walking up to somebodys house and askig them a load of questions...Me on the other hand though ........

iverjohnston

@iverjohnston. That was another one of my ideas. Mrs Bellucio wasnt too keen on idea of walking up to somebodys house and askig them a load of questions...Me on the other hand though ........ [/QUOTE]

There is a chance you will be living next door to them, so no harm in asking nicely/introducing yourself. Just don't wang on about the 66% drop in price.;)
People are mainly helpful, and I'm sure they would put you straight about any major problems. Mains or private sewerage?

bellucio

iverjohnston wrote: »

Mains or private sewerage?

Private sewerage - "Bio cycle sewage treatment plant" on the ad, and I'm fairly sure its mains water....
That leads to another question...All the new taxes coming in :mad:...Would one be hit on the double here with septic tank AND water charges ??