Yet Another Rules Question!

jj72

Guys just wondering what would of happened here if I didn't find my ball:

First off, im playing a par three with a red staked hazard all down the left with out of bounds the other side of that hazard. Basically I pull my T Shot and see it bounce once before disappearing. Now im pretty sure it doesn't reach the hazard but I turn to my 2 playing partners and ask them what they think. One of them says 'oh I wasn't even watching' and the other one to my astonishment says 'oh that flew everything....straight out of bounds'.. So I said oh no no I seen that bounce etc. etc. etc. He was adamant that it was out of bounds.....Anyways to cut a long story short I walked up and sure enough my ball was sitting in the rough just out of the hazard and so we carried on happily enough! .....My question is, what the heck could I have done if I didn't find my ball? Like there was no way in hell the ball was out of bounds but this guy was sure of it. thought it was an interesting one

For Paws

Comes down to the definition of 'known or virtually certain'.

You took the correct course, having played your tee shot, to gather all available evidence from your fellow players.
But, having heard opinion that your ball lay out of bounds, your next action should have been to put another ball in play, declaring it to be 'provisional'.
Having gone forward to the area where your first ball might be lying, in the hazard, and not located it, either inside or outside the hazard, you could then proceed with your provisional (although of course your 'provisional' is now your 'ball in play').

In the absence of supporting evidence which would make it 'known or virtually certain' that your first ball lay inside the hazard, you would not have been entitled to proceed under Rule 26-1. (Rule 27-1 then applies).

jj72

Thanks for that For Paws. I forgot to mention I actually did hit a provisional ball even though I was virtually certain that if I didn't find the ball then the only place it could have been would be the hazard. My playing partner didn't agree with this as he was saying it had flown the whole way out of bounds without even bouncing. In my eyes if the ball wasn't found then it had to have just rolled into the drain (there was no way it could have bounced over it)

mike12

Thats the problem with course design, they should either make it ob or a hazard. If it is only a drain then unless u can find your ball in the drain there will always be an argument if it in anyway blind then I think it should either be OB or a Hazard not both.

Mike

jj72

Mike, I totally agree, one shouldn't be a boundary to the next. In fact I think it used to be out of bounds but they put red stakes on it a few years back for some strange reason.

John Divney

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

But if there is only fairway down to the hazard stakes, and you think the ball may have rolled in, or is short but play a provisional, that's three off the tee and the provisional is in play, because the ball cannot be lost or OB, in that terrain, ie fairway down to Hazard, therefor you can not play a provisional. It's either in the Hazard or will be found short.

jj72

Jees its a tricky one isn't it. Like on one hand im fairly sure my ball is safe, although theres a slight chance it has made the hazard. On the other hand my partner is saying ohhh that's out of bounds hit a second one. Like what would you guys have done?

ernieprice

John Divney wrote: »

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

But if there is only fairway down to the hazard stakes, and you think the ball may have rolled in, or is short but play a provisional, that's three off the tee and the provisional is in play, because the ball cannot be lost or OB, in that terrain, ie fairway down to Hazard, therefor you can not play a provisional. It's either in the Hazard or will be found short.

The magic word here is FOUND. If you actually find you ball in the hazard then the provisional ball is abandoned , otherwise the original ball is lost and provisional ball is in play.

jj72

John Divney wrote: »

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

But if there is only fairway down to the hazard stakes, and you think the ball may have rolled in, or is short but play a provisional, that's three off the tee and the provisional is in play, because the ball cannot be lost or OB, in that terrain, ie fairway down to Hazard, therefor you can not play a provisional. It's either in the Hazard or will be found short.

But surely I can play a provisional ball if my playing partner is telling me my ball is out of bounds??

John Divney

jj72 wrote: »

But surely I can play a provisional ball if my playing partner is telling me my ball is out of bounds??

Well you can play one if the ball may be lost, before the hazard, that is what has to be determined, could it be lost?

As for him saying it's OB, you knew it wasn't so you can't play one for that specific reason

jj72

John, Say for instance our opinions were reversed and I thought I was OB and he was saying oh no its definitely in play, and I hit a provisional, am I then penalised if I find my ball?

John Divney

jj72 wrote: »

John, Say for instance our opinions were reversed and I thought I was OB and he was saying oh no its definitely in play, and I hit a provisional, am I then penalised if I find my ball?

I'd say no, because you clearly think the ball is OB, and this is exactly why the provisional is there to help you.


You have to go with what you genuinely believe based on the best evidence you saw, your the one who gets clobbered when you don't find the ball in play and hold up the show. You are acting in good faith.


Even if you are wrong, the ball still 'may be lost', if it you don't think it's in the hazard you are fine.

Gin77

I hope he apologized after declaring falsely he saw your ball going OB. Unless you see the shot and all of the shot you shouldn't express an opinion. I'd be fuming even if I found the ball.
I was in a comp lately my drive was long and off the fairway. I knew roughly where it went but the other guys thought I was mad and it didn't go that far.
I could have easily doubted myself and was starting to when I found it just off the fairway. It annoyed me that they would have me looking in vain 40 yd back!
Only you know where you ball is likely to finish, thrust your own instinct.

John Divney

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2010/04/when-you-may-not-play-provisional-ball.html

Here's a good blog on the provisional, when you can and cannot.

DuckSlice

Gin77 wrote: »

I hope he apologized after declaring falsely he saw your ball going OB. Unless you see the shot and all of the shot you shouldn't express an opinion. I'd be fuming even if I found the ball.
I was in a comp lately my drive was long and off the fairway. I knew roughly where it went but the other guys thought I was mad and it didn't go that far.
I could have easily doubted myself and was starting to when I found it just off the fairway. It annoyed me that they would have me looking in vain 40 yd back!
Only you know where you ball is likely to finish, thrust your own instinct.

The provisional rule is a lot more complicated than people think. Say in your situation you hit a ball, and thought that might be hard to find ill hit another. So you are looking for your ball where it is likely to be, after the 5 minutes are up you walk over to your provisional and hit it. Then as your walking up the fairway u see your original ball 30 yards ahead of where you were searching. You would think the Provo was out of play but in fact it's not and your original ball is now lost as far as the rules are concerned.

ernieprice

A player plays a shot over trees towards a water hazard and does not see the ball land, he declares he is playing a provisional as either his ball could be lost or in the water hazard. (a) He finds his ball in the trees - He must abandon his provisional ball and play original. (b) Finds his original ball in water hazard - He must abandon his provisional ball and play original.(Please note he must actually find the original ball). (C) Can not find his ball anywhere - He then continues play with provisional ball as original ball is treated/declared a lost ball, Hope this clears it up.

DuckSlice

ernieprice wrote: »

A player plays a shot over trees towards a water hazard and does not see the ball land, he declares he is playing a provisional as either his ball could be lost or in the water hazard. (a) He finds his ball in the trees - He must abandon his provisional ball and play original. (b) Finds his original ball in water hazard - He must abandon his provisional ball and play original.(Please note he must actually find the original ball). (C) Can not find his ball anywhere - He then continues play with provisional ball as original ball is treated/declared a lost ball, Hope this clears it up.

Well the player is breaking the rule by declaring he is playing a provosional in case his ball is in the water hazard. also you dont have to find the ball in the hazard, it just has to be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the water hazard. someone could say to him 'i seen your ball go in the hazard'.

lettuce97

Would the following sum it up?

If you "think" the ball might be in the hazard (not virtually certain):
Play a provo.
Find the ball in the hazard - play the original (ie take relief).
Don't find the ball in the hazard - must play provo, can't take hazard relief as you weren't virtually certain.

If you're virtually certain it's in the hazard:
Can't play a provo (unless there's a local rule).
Entitled to relief if you don't find the ball.
If you find the ball outside the hazard, lucky you!

John Divney

lettuce97 wrote: »

Would the following sum it up?

If you "think" the ball might be in the hazard (not virtually certain):
Play a provo.
Find the ball in the hazard - play the original (ie take relief).
Don't find the ball in the hazard - must play provo, can't take hazard relief as you weren't virtually certain.

Not quite. I'd ammend it to :

If you "think" the ball might be in the hazard (not virtually certain):
Play a provo only if the ball may be lost outside the hazard. If no reason to believe ball may be lost outside the hazard due to the terrain, no provisional.

If ball may be lost before hazard, Play provisional.

Find the ball in the hazard - play the original (ie take relief).
Don't find the ball in the hazard - must play provo, can't take hazard relief as you weren't virtually certain.

lettuce97

John Divney wrote: »

Not quite. I'd ammend it to :

If you "think" the ball might be in the hazard (not virtually certain):
Play a provo only if the ball may be lost outside the hazard. If no reason to believe ball may be lost outside the hazard due to the terrain, no provisional.

If ball may be lost before hazard, Play provisional.

Find the ball in the hazard - play the original (ie take relief).
Don't find the ball in the hazard - must play provo, can't take hazard relief as you weren't virtually certain.

But surely if the ball couldn't be lost outside of the hazard, and you don't find it, that means it's in the hazard - ie the second clause?

John Divney

lettuce97 wrote: »

But surely if the ball couldn't be lost outside of the hazard, and you don't find it, that means it's in the hazard - ie the second clause?

Yes, exactly. You don't play a provisional, walk up and take relief under the hazard.

DuckSlice

lettuce97 wrote: »

Would the following sum it up?

If you "think" the ball might be in the hazard (not virtually certain):
Play a provo.
Find the ball in the hazard - play the original (ie take relief).
Don't find the ball in the hazard - must play provo, can't take hazard relief as you weren't virtually certain.

If you're virtually certain it's in the hazard:
Can't play a provo (unless there's a local rule).
Entitled to relief if you don't find the ball.
If you find the ball outside the hazard, lucky you!

If you think the ball is in the hazard then you can't play a provo, so when you play one that ball is now the ball in play regardless if you find the ball in the hazard or not.

lettuce97

etxp wrote: »

If you think the ball is in the hazard then you can't play a provo, so when you play one that ball is now the ball in play regardless if you find the ball in the hazard or not.

Good point, I put the local rule bit in the wrong place - this is the scenario you need the local rule for.

ernieprice

etxp wrote: »

Well the player is breaking the rule by declaring he is playing a provosional in case his ball is in the water hazard. also you dont have to find the ball in the hazard, it just has to be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the water hazard. someone could say to him 'i seen your ball go in the hazard'.

etxp, either you are confused or did not read my post properly?
Decision 27-2a/2.2 in Decisions of the Rules of Golf

" Possibility That Original Ball is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball"
Q. Is it true that, if a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, the player is precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned - Rule 27-2c.
My scenario was that the ball might be lost, and if he found the original ball outside the hazard he must continue with original ball, If he actually found original ball in Hazard, he must abandoned provisional ball and play the original ball the under relevant water hazard rule (In this situation the ball must be found in hazard ). If ball was not found outside or in water hazard then it becomes a lost ball and provisional ball becomes ball in play. You are correct that a player can not play a provisional ball if he knows or is virtually certain his ball is in hazard (in this situation he does not have to find his ball). If he plays a provisional ball then this ball is automatically in play and he can not invoke the water hazard rule.

DuckSlice

No i read your post. but what i was getting at was, you cant declare "im going to play a provisional in case my ball is lost or in the hazard" you would have to say "im going to play a provisional in case that ball is lost".

ernieprice

I see where you are coming from and the need for players to clarify why they are taking certain options but players must be aware that if they think their ball may be lost then they can play a provisional. In order to invoke the water hazard rule after playing a provisional then they must find their original ball in the hazard or if not found it becomes a lost ball. As competition secretary in my own club I have had to address this problem on more than one occasion. Why would a player want to play their 3rd shot from the tee when they could play their 3rd shot from 200 yards forward if they know or are virtually certain their ball is in a water hazard and are not required to find it. A lack of understanding of the rules is always an issue.

jj72

Thanks for all those replies guys, there really would have been no issue if my playing partner hadn't being seeing things. Would have just carried on and if lost presumed it had rolled into the hazard.