Shock Horror

darkpagandeath

looks like the goberment may have to do some explaining if it goes to investigation stage. Think they were hoping this would all go away but i bet France is still peeved about Irelands low corporate tax rate,

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0912/473723-corporation-tax/

Not like everyone knows ooooh sure have a free building or rent free relocation cost blah blah is going on. Love the effective rate mention sure apple is paying there whack what 3% or lower you say.

hullaballoo

Yeah, I hate all these giant international companies coming in and giving us jobs and improving the economy. Down with jobs, up with tax!!!

darkpagandeath

You mean making the government give them sweet deals to come and that's the only reason. There not giving us jobs, You think they would be here if they had to pay the proper tax rate.

My name is URL

The EU simply won't rest until Ireland's incentives to multinationals have been removed. How come you never here of them going after france? Even though their CT rate is higher than ours, when you take into account grants and other tax reliefs; it's actually cheaper for companies to set up there.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/france-has-lower-effective-tax-rate-than-ireland-study-227320.html

Luxembourg, Switzerland and France all have much lower effective corporate tax rates than Ireland, according to a study by PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) and the World Bank.
The report notes that in many countries there is a substantial difference between the statutory corporate tax rate and the effective tax rate.

In France the statutory corporate tax rate is 33.3% while the actual effective tax rate is lower than Ireland’s 12.5% at 8.2%.

hullaballoo

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You mean making the government give them sweet deals to come and that's the only reason.

Financial incentives are used everywhere on the planet by governments to attract big companies. In China, it's cheap labour, here, it's low tax on profits. The Exchequer here is not losing out because Google only paid €15.3m in tax on profits of €10.1bn. The exchequer will get its revenue elsewhere as a direct effect of having the multinational here.

There not giving us jobs, You think they would be here if they had to pay the proper tax rate.

They are giving us jobs, tens of thousands of them. And they pay well. But no, they obviously wouldn't be here government decided not to give them a good reason.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You mean making the government give them sweet deals to come and that's the only reason. There not giving us jobs, You think they would be here if they had to pay the proper tax rate.

The Fench and the rest of them give sweet deals too!
Which is why the effective rate of tax in France is much much less for most companies than the headline rate.

darkpagandeath

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

The Fench and the rest of them give sweet deals too!
Which is why the effective rate of tax in France is much much less for most companies than the headline rate.

Then why is Ireland 1 of the 3 that's mentioned and not the others people have mentioned here ..

Karl Stein

Cloud computing is big here because we have an abundance of clouds.

Those Frenchies just need to accept that.

darkpagandeath

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Cloud computing is big here because we have an abundance of clouds.

Those Frenchies just need to accept that.

surely all that hot air the government is spouting will cancel out any benefit environmental server farms have :P

tayto lover

It's a wonder they never came after our Govt for having such a high VRT rate.

Gee Bag

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Think they were hoping this would all go away but i bet France is still peeved about Irelands low corporate tax rate.

The French can go fvck themselves, their actual corporation tax rate is lower than ours.

AnonoBoy

Someone needs to write a hard-boiled detective novel about a tax-investigator in Ireland.

Call it "A Dame, A Gun and a Tax Haven" or something equally cool like that.

theGEM

Ireland has the best company tax structure - 12.50% on trading profits. Easy and simple. The US rate is c 35% but they have so many loopholes and exemptions the effective rate is far lower.

darkpagandeath

theGEM wrote: »

Ireland has the best company tax structure - 12.50% on trading profits. Easy and simple. The US rate is c 35% but they have so many loopholes and exemptions the effective rate is far lower.

That are then paid in royalties to a puppet company in a country like Holland and then from there to the Cayman isles. That's why apple only paid 15 mill in tax

Wibbs

Frankly the French and the Germans(who have bitched about this too) can fcuk right off about our corp tax as far as I'm concerned.

If our government fold to pressure from these gits we should storm the dail and drag them out by the bloody heels as the traitors they would be.

Utter hypocrisy with it and as My name is URL points out the French and others have their own sweeteners and enticements for foreign investment. Fcuk off

Remember around the time of Lisbon treaty II when that gobshíte French prez Sarkozy came to Dublin and swore blind that no way would Ireland’s corporation tax rate ever be under threat if we were to pass the treaty? Oh look. Fcuk off.

All this while we are helping to pay off billions in private debts in many European banks? Fcuk right off.

darkpagandeath

Wibbs wrote: »

Frankly the French and the Germans(who have bitched about this too) can fcuk right off about our corp tax as far as I'm concerned.

If our government fold to pressure from these gits we should storm the dail and drag them out by the bloody heels as the traitors they would be.

Utter hypocrisy with it and as My name is URL points out the French and others have their own sweeteners and enticements for foreign investment. Fcuk off

Remember around the time of Lisbon treaty II when that gobshíte French prez Sarkozy came to Dublin and swore blind that no way would Ireland’s corporation tax rate ever be under threat if we were to pass the treaty? Oh look. Fcuk off.

All this while we are helping to pay off billions in private debts in many European banks? Fcuk right off.

Totally agree but we cant pick and chose what parts of E.U law and so on we follow were all one big happy family now. Love the quote President Barroso gave this week "were all in one big canoe and you cant say your end is sinking". Shows exactly how much they care how austerity is affecting smaller economy's.

jimgoose

Well really, look it from Berlin's point of view - one can hardly have Der Colonies attracting lucrative foreign investment and having good jobs available locally, can we??

jimgoose

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Totally agree but we cant pick and chose what parts of E.U law and so on we follow were all one big happy family now. Love the quote President Barroso gave this week "were all in one big canoe and you cant say your end is sinking". Shows exactly how much they care how austerity is affecting smaller economy's.

We have no business next nigh nor near the furkin' thing.

Karl Stein

I get nervous when Wibbs is angry.

Czarcasm

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Totally agree but we cant pick and chose what parts of E.U law and so on we follow were all one big happy family now. Love the quote President Barroso gave this week "were all in one big canoe and you cant say your end is sinking". Shows exactly how much they care how austerity is affecting smaller economy's.

We would've been in a far stronger position to negotiate our way through the financial rapids had it not been for a cox like Noonan making not so thinly veiled threats about the budget if we didn't ratify the Lisbon Treaty.

Successive Irish governments have over the last 30 years had money thrown at them by the EU to improve our infrastructure, and successive Irish governments have always found new and ingenious ways to piss it down the drain. Then we thought we could play in the sandbox with the big boys, and riding high on the crest of a virtual wave, Bertie decided we wouldn't need to devalue our shìtty punt to join the Eurozone.

When it came back to bite them spectacularly in the arse, our Government went running cap in hand to the EU again, and this time were told "No! Because for the last 30 years you've pissed your pocket money down the drain when you should've been spending it on infrastructure, not overtime and bonuses!".

I don't blame the EU and the Troika for asking where the fcuk DID their money go? I don't blame them for wanting to examine our corporation tax rates and our inefficient work rate. They invested billions in Ireland's infrastructure over the last 30 years and we really have fcukall to show for it, whereas look at the economies of Germany and France, who used their money wisely - while we were still fcuking about with fossil fuels, they'd gone nuclear.

Successive Irish governments are to blame for the mismanagement of this country, and to push the buck back even further- ask yourself, who elected successive bunches of incompetent pricks?

We still haven't learned anything since the 80's, still as greedy as ever, and if the EU were to write down our debt and throw us a ball of money in the morning, you'd still find the likes of Ming, Wallace and Healy Rae doing a bang up job of fcuking money into a boghole, into a hole in the ground, or into a wishing well, anywhere but investing it in infrastructure and indigenous industries and services so we'll always be dependent on attracting FDI and MNCs with our low corp tax rate.

Heaven forbid we might actually have to innovate and use our own initiative to work towards a solution that would get our economy out of the shìtter. Ireland has plenty of USPs, but we don't sell ourselves very well, and we are completely resistant to any sort of change or having to adapt to the circumstances in which we find ourselves.

theGEM

Czarcasm wrote: »

They invested billions in Ireland's infrastructure over the last 30 years and we really have fcukall to show for it, whereas look at the economies of Germany and France, who used their money wisely - while we were still fcuking about with fossil fuels, they'd gone nuclear.

No they didn't, they demanded cheap as chips interest rates during the 00's and threw their money (via German/French banks i.e. the bondholders) at the Irish property boom. Now, that their investments failed they're demanding their money back :rolleyes:

Czarcasm

theGEM wrote: »

No they didn't, they demanded cheap as chips interest rates during the 00's and threw their money (via German/French banks i.e. the bondholders) at the Irish property boom. Now, that their investments failed they're demanding their money back :rolleyes:

You've conveniently forgotten the EU infrastructure grants and the CAP subsidies of the 70's, 80's and 90's?

You've forgotten how Digital in Galway closed down with the loss of how many jobs? Dell in Limerick and Motorola in Cork? Gateway in Dublin?

Here, for the latest FDI spin have a read of this for comedy gold*-

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1026038.shtml


*It's actually not that funny at all, not by a fcuking long shot.

Mickey H

Wibbs wrote: »

Frankly the French and the Germans(who have bitched about this too) can fcuk right off about our corp tax as far as I'm concerned.

If our government fold to pressure from these gits we should storm the dail and drag them out by the bloody heels as the traitors they would be.

Utter hypocrisy with it and as My name is URL points out the French and others have their own sweeteners and enticements for foreign investment. Fcuk off

Remember around the time of Lisbon treaty II when that gobshíte French prez Sarkozy came to Dublin and swore blind that no way would Ireland’s corporation tax rate ever be under threat if we were to pass the treaty? Oh look. Fcuk off.

All this while we are helping to pay off billions in private debts in many European banks? Fcuk right off.

Sarkozy was a lying bastard, pure and simple. At least we didn't fold that time.

Wibbs

My worry is Mickey that our reps may buy it this time. Again I say and we all should say Fcuk. Right. Off. Especially if ye want us all to keep pumping money into the ECB.

Sh1tbag OToole

darkpagandeath wrote: »

surely all that hot air the government is spouting will cancel out any benefit environmental server farms have :P

There isnt actually that many server farms here. A couple of lads with a stack of Raspberri Pies, a trailerload of old hardware from Freecycle and an overpriced SDSL line from Digiweb.

Unfortunately like all farming it is cheaper to buy stuff from abroad and there is no subsidy scam with dragging servers up to Nordie land and back again. Also the code monkeys who write what runs on the servers are cheaper to outspruce.


Eventually we will end up in a country full of smiling, beer bellied execs who play golf all day but no actual work that any other human being finds useful will be done here. Some day the code monkeys and the server boys will get together and realise they dont need the smiling execs.

The execs wont mind because they'll be loaded. They just have to find two developing nations, one with a few servers and one with a few code monkeys and throw some money around to claim their position as a parasitic middleman between the two.

Trust me on this, I farmed servers as a boy and my father farmed them and so did his father before him all the way back to when servers were still made of timber and the internet was pulled by horses

Mickey H

Wibbs wrote: »

My worry is Mickey that our reps may buy it this time. Again I say and we all should say Fcuk. Right. Off. Especially if ye want us all to keep pumping money into the ECB.

That's always going to be in the back of the mind. Eventually, our reps might be "convinced" into buying it, if the big guys keep going on about it. See Lisbon / Lisbon II for example.

Czarcasm

Wibbs wrote: »

My worry is Mickey that our reps may buy it this time. Again I say and we all should say Fcuk. Right. Off. Especially if ye want us all to keep pumping money into the ECB.

Wibbs tbh I'd love nothing more than to tell our EU Overlords to fcuk right off, but that'd be biting the hand that's fed us, and now, was reading this the other day -


http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/well-need-a-10bn-bailout-safety-net-29557178.html


Not only are Labour trying to wiggle out of it's commitments to the Troika when cuts NEED to be made, but government are talking about borrowing even MORE money, and in truth, as they always do, that's not just going to be €10bn we need, more like at least five times that, and we're back over a barrel again!

It'd be like if I went into the bank in the morning and said "Look, I know my business is in the shìtter, I know I have a spotty credit history, but if you forget about my book cooking skills or lack thereof, and ignore that business loan, I'd like to set up an overdraft facility. I promise I won't use it, but it'd be nice to feel some cash flow in the business again"...

I mean, in the current economic climate, the bank manager would have security kick me out on my ear once he was done laughing into my face.

Ostrom

hullaballoo wrote: »

Yeah, I hate all these giant international companies coming in and giving us jobs and improving the economy. Down with jobs, up with tax!!!

Indeed, such generosity. And they gain so little in return for our labour.

darkpagandeath

Why do people go weak at the knees when you call Multi nationals out for what they are. They are not charity's they are not giving people jobs, There coming somewhere where they can pay as little wages tax rent and so on. If someone said to them ahem you know that low tax rate your fiddling to 3-4% were going to fix it so you can only fiddle it down to 8% i wonder how fast they would be out of here. People need to realise there a huge liability once (a lot of our economy local shops and such are dependant on them) the lads in Europe have there way guess how many more people will be out of work after there precious multinational charity's have left.

Christ the Redeemer

We'll fold to this eventually.

Renegade Mechanic

Correct me if Im wrong but iirc some time ago an American was talking in their senate and mentioned how he was paying almost no tax at all in Ireland, owing to a "sweetheart deal". Obviously our govt denounced it immediately but I reckon that's whats under investigation with a veiw to hitting us with a fine of many billions -or- abolition of our corporate tax..
Clever.

force eleven

See what you get for voting Yes to Lisbon.

Czarcasm

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Correct me if Im wrong but iirc some time ago an American was talking in their senate and mentioned how he was paying almost no tax at all in Ireland, owing to a "sweetheart deal". Obviously our govt denounced it immediately but I reckon that's whats under investigation with a veiw to hitting us with a fine of many billions -or- abolition of our corporate tax..
Clever.

I genuinely don't know about the American guy in the Senate, but I do remember Obama's mention when he was inaugurated about bringing American companies back to America and for many it was throwaway rhetoric at the time, but I remember thinking it had massive implications for Ireland. It's expanded on here -

http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-manufacturing-jobs-plan-2013-2


I consider myself privileged in that I encounter on an almost daily basis some of the best business, scientific, technological, creative minds in Ireland, we're still churning out some of the most gifted graduates from our colleges and universities, even our secondary schools have some of the most brilliant minds I've ever met (Fish waste as a biofuel, I mean, I'm just left speechless!), and yet, because of the way this country's company laws are structured (they're simplifying the process now somewhat) and the lack of support in place unless you're an HPSU, we're losing these brilliant minds to countries where entrepreneurship and enterprise is part and parcel of their culture.

Those guys I mentioned with the fish waste idea, I've practically begged them, short of getting down on my knees, to stay in Ireland if I could cut through the red tape for them and get them the support they need. They're not interested. Why? Because they're off to San Fran to develop their idea and take advantage of the far greater opportunities over there. It sickens me, and they're not the only ones that have left, I know one 19 year old who one week he's working in a computer store, the next week he's off to Los Angeles to join a company who have offices in three major US cities and he's joining their development team and bringing his project with him!

We don't NEED multi-nationals in this country, we don't NEED foreign investment! We DO need to start appreciating our own home-grown talent and working on putting structures in place to encourage them to stay here, develop and export their products and services and THAT, is the only way Ireland's economy will recover and prosper without being dependent on everyone else to do it for us.

Amirani

Czarcasm wrote: »

We would've been in a far stronger position to negotiate our way through the financial rapids had it not been for a cox like Noonan making not so thinly veiled threats about the budget if we didn't ratify the Lisbon Treaty.

Except for the fact that Noonan wasn't in Government when the Lisbon Treaty was being ratified?

Czarcasm

NiallSparky wrote: »

Except for the fact that Noonan wasn't in Government when the Lisbon Treaty was being ratified?

Was he not?


http://www.thejournal.ie/noonan-warns-budget-2013-will-be-harsher-if-ireland-votes-no-435893-May2012/


Sorry Niall, I see the confusion-

No, I meant the second time we were told to say yes or else to the Lisbon Treaty. The first time we rejected it in 2008, Michael Noonan was still reeling from the Hep C scandal a year earlier, when he was the Minister for Health.

Amirani

Czarcasm wrote: »

Was he not?


http://www.thejournal.ie/noonan-warns-budget-2013-will-be-harsher-if-ireland-votes-no-435893-May2012/

That wasn't the Lisbon Treaty (Lisbon was ratified in 2009), it was the Treaty establishing the European Stability Mechanism. Your point is still relevant though.

Sorry Niall, I see the confusion-

No, I meant the second time we were told to say yes or else to the Lisbon Treaty. The first time we rejected it in 2008, Michael Noonan was still reeling from the Hep C scandal a year earlier, when he was the Minister for Health.

I think you might be mixing him up here? Michael Noonan wasn't Minister for Health in 2008?

SEPT 23 1989

When push comes to shove,our spineless shower of wasters will do as they are told

Czarcasm

NiallSparky wrote: »

I think you might be mixing him up here? Michael Noonan wasn't Minister for Health in 2008?

No at that stage he had lost out in the 2007 General Election, but he was Minister for Health in 2007 when he rather incompetently handled the Hep C case.

That's why I said a year earlier, because I thought you meant he wasn't in Government for the Lisbon Treaty the first time in 2008, but turns out you're right all round!

But yeah, I just remembered that so vividly because I watched the news clip where he was telling people they'd need to ratify that particular treaty or face harsh measures in the budget... as he slid into the seat of his chauffeur driven Lexus! :pac:

(I'm terrible with dates and times too btw! )

jimgoose

Czarcasm wrote: »

...(I'm terrible with dates and times too btw! )

You sure are - the Hep-C case was in the mid-'90s!

Czarcasm

jimgoose wrote: »

You sure are - the Hep-C case was in the mid-'90s!

Fcuk me I'm losing my marbles altogether! You're right Jim, it was '97, not '07 :pac:

Fuzzytrooper

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why do people go weak at the knees when you call Multi nationals out for what they are. They are not charity's they are not giving people jobs, There coming somewhere where they can pay as little wages tax rent and so on. If someone said to them ahem you know that low tax rate your fiddling to 3-4% were going to fix it so you can only fiddle it down to 8% i wonder how fast they would be out of here. People need to realise there a huge liability once (a lot of our economy local shops and such are dependant on them) the lads in Europe have there way guess how many more people will be out of work after there precious multinational charity's have left.

My last job and my current one have both been with American multinationals. Same goes for my wife's current job.

darkpagandeath

Fuzzytrooper wrote: »

My last job and my current one have both been with American multinationals. Same goes for my wife's current job.

I have worked for them too .. I remember one time a guy from America turned up apparently he was a manager. He was not he was from a streamlining company. We were all interviewed and then ahem the not so team players you know the people who know there rights and will stand up for them were got rid of quietly. Under the guise of streamlining departments and such. I remember when I joined the company I was made to sign a contract that had on the first page “You are not part or will not join a union when employed by said company” which disappeared when we requested copy's of them.

brandon_flowers

I work in Monaco for a Dutch listed company headquartered in Switzerland operating under British law and I get my pay cheque from a Monegasque company. My colleague sitting a few seats away gets paid from a Cayman Islands company.

Large companies avoiding tax is hardly a new development in Ireland or any other country.

People need to stop being so naive, "oh the multinational came in and gave us jobs but now they want to leave and screw us over". Well you took their job in the first place, if nobody was taking their jobs they wouldn't come here. At the end of the day you are there to make profit for shareholders and nothing more, you should make the best out of it and if you think you are not getting the best deal you are free to leave. It is easier said than done but by agreeing to take their job you effectively cancel your right to any argument against their presence in Ireland.

You can't have your cake and eat it.

What needs to be stopped is companies like Beats using an office in Clonakilty to filter all their money through Ireland without creating a single job and paying **** all tax. (and making ****, wanker-identifying headphones)