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English conservative versus Ulster Unionist; amusing and enlightening.

  • 11-09-2013 4:41pm
    #1
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭


    http://www.libertarian.co.uk/multimedia/2008-07-28-ulster-sig.mp3

    I laughed out loud when the man from the UUP whip accused Sean Gabb of being a Republican. It does however raise a question- and we should be asking this in relation to the abolition of the Senate-whether the Irish have an authoritarian streak that the English, Scots and Welsh generally lack? Both states in this nation have a terrible record when it comes to civil liberty (just look at the Offensives Against the State Acts in the 26 counties).


Comments

  • #2
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    http://www.libertarian.co.uk/multimedia/2008-07-28-ulster-sig.mp3

    I laughed out loud when the man from the UUP whip accused Sean Gabb of being a Republican. It does however raise a question- and we should be asking this in relation to the abolition of the Senate-whether the Irish have an authoritarian streak that the English, Scots and Welsh generally lack? Both states in this nation have a terrible record when it comes to civil liberty (just look at the Offensives Against the State Acts in the 26 counties).
    Isn't he? Libertarians usually are.


  • #3
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Isn't he? Libertarians usually are.

    No he isnt. He has written in defense of the Monarchy though he has taken a turn about Elizabeth II. I personally think that Sean Gabb is more of a certain type of Tory than and out and out Libertarian.


  • #4
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    http://www.libertarian.co.uk/multimedia/2008-07-28-ulster-sig.mp3

    I laughed out loud when the man from the UUP whip accused Sean Gabb of being a Republican. It does however raise a question- and we should be asking this in relation to the abolition of the Senate-whether the Irish have an authoritarian streak that the English, Scots and Welsh generally lack? Both states in this nation have a terrible record when it comes to civil liberty (just look at the Offensives Against the State Acts in the 26 counties).

    Thank God we had and still have The offences Against The State Acts!


  • #5
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    No he isnt. He has written in defense of the Monarchy though he has taken a turn about Elizabeth II. I personally think that Sean Gabb is more of a certain type of Tory than and out and out Libertarian.
    So how can the Queen remain Queen without a government?


  • #6
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    So how can the Queen remain Queen without a government?

    He is a minarchist and not an anarchist.


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  • #7
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Isn't he? Libertarians usually are.

    Here is his defense of monarchy- http://www.seangabb.co.uk/flcomm/flc083.htm


  • #8
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »
    Thank God we had and still have The offences Against The State Acts!

    Why? You seem to prove that there is an extremely authoritarian streak in many Irish people.


  • #9
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Here is his defense of monarchy- http://www.seangabb.co.uk/flcomm/flc083.htm
    SoulandForm wrote: »
    He is a minarchist and not an anarchist.
    Fair enough. As for the main question I don't really have anything to say. I don't think we're any more authoritarianism then the British or any other European nation.


  • #10
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Fair enough. As for the main question I don't really have anything to say. I don't think we're any more authoritarianism then the British or any other European nation.

    I dont think that is true at all- can you imagine the Special Powers Act or something like it being tolerated in England- no mind the Flags and Emblems (Display) Act ? Why is there so little opposition to the Offenses Against the State, infact none in what can be considered the "mainstream"? Irish people might not like to consider themselves authoritarian but than again Irish people dont like to consider themselves snobs....


  • #11
    joe swanson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭joe swanson


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Why? You seem to prove that there is an extremely authoritarian streak in many Irish people.

    Offences against the state act protects the decent people of this country from scum who wish to impose their beliefs and their own authoritarian streak on people by killing them. Only scum apologists have a problem with it.

    Awaits predictable whataboutery. Yes I condemn all killing by all sides. Get that out of the way.


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  • #12
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    joe swanson wrote: »
    Offences against the state act protects the decent people of this country from scum who wish to impose their beliefs and their own authoritarian streak on people by killing them. Only scum apologists have a problem with it.

    Awaits predictable whataboutery. Yes I condemn all killing by all sides. Get that out of the way.

    The Offensives of the State Act allows the police to consider three people gathered together as a dangerous mob- its an extremely authoritarian piece of legislation. After the string of exposures of corruption in the Irish ruling elite do you really trust such people with the level of power they have gifted themselves?

    It is a false presumption that the Offenses Against the State Act will only ever be used against the Republican movement broadly defined.


  • #13
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    joe swanson wrote: »
    Offences against the state act protects the decent people of this country from scum who wish to impose their beliefs and their own authoritarian streak on people by killing them. Only scum apologists have a problem with it.

    Awaits predictable whataboutery. Yes I condemn all killing by all sides. Get that out of the way.

    This is the logic that leads to tyranny-"only criminals or perverts or whoever would have a problem with this law...".


  • #14
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    This is the logic that leads to tyranny-"only criminals or perverts or whoever would have a problem with this law...".
    But if we want to catch the scum or perverts sometimes it's important to arm the police with the correct tools. The original Offences against the State act was in effect during (and undoubtedly helped suppress) the IRA border campaign. That alone is worth it.


  • #15
    guttenberg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 959 ✭✭✭guttenberg


    Bear in mind folks that the OP links to a 5 year old podcast, I'm sure the views of those concerned have changed. David Dunseith, the presenter, died in 2011. Very surreal hearing his voice again!


  • #16
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    But if we want to catch the scum or perverts sometimes it's important to arm the police with the correct tools. The original Offences against the State act was in effect during (and undoubtedly helped suppress) the IRA border campaign. That alone is worth it.

    Would be a fan of the Special Powers Act aswell? What about the B-Specials?


  • #17
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    joe swanson wrote: »
    Offences against the state act protects the decent people of this country from scum who wish to impose their beliefs and their own authoritarian streak on people by killing them. Only scum apologists have a problem with it.

    Awaits predictable whataboutery. Yes I condemn all killing by all sides. Get that out of the way.

    The majority of Ulster Unionists felt that only scum apologists were against the B-men and for their disbanding, would you agree with them or is Prod authoritarianism somehow different from southern Catholic authoritarianism?


  • #18
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    The majority of Ulster Unionists felt that only scum apologists were against the B-men and for their disbanding, would you agree with them or is Prod authoritarianism somehow different from southern Catholic authoritarianism?

    That's it, derail your own thread!
    Fúcking hilarious!

    PS thanks for displaying your very own sectarian bigotry by referring to one group in the pejorative "prod" while referring to the other group as catholics.


  • #19
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »
    That's it, derail your own thread!
    Fúcking hilarious!

    No its a serious point- the arguments used to support authoritarianism in the south are exactly the same as those used in the north. Can you not see that?

    What is your view of the B-Specials and the Special Powers Act?

    By your own logic you should support them- if you dont than either you are sectarian or you havent thought this matter through and are just being knee jerk in your opinions.


  • #20
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »
    That's it, derail your own thread!
    Fúcking hilarious!

    PS thanks for displaying your very own sectarian bigotry by referring to one group in the pejorative "prod" while referring to the other group as catholics.

    I am a prod or Reformed Christian if you prefer.


  • #21
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    No its a serious point- the arguments used to support authoritarianism in the south are exactly the same as those used in the north. Can you not see that?

    What is your view of the B-Specials and the Special Powers Act?

    By your own logic you should support them- if you dont than either you are sectarian or you havent thought this matter through and are just being knee jerk in your opinions.
    Sweet jesus , you are calling me sectarian, you that refer to people as "prods"!
    The hypocrisy is mind boggling!


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  • #22
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »
    Sweet jesus , you are calling me sectarian, you that refer to people as "prods"!
    The hypocrisy is mind boggling!

    So no answer to the serious question- can you please try to think about the issue seriously?


  • #23
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,968 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    This is After Hours isn't it?


  • #24
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    But if we want to catch the scum or perverts sometimes it's important to arm the police with the correct tools. The original Offences against the State act was in effect during (and undoubtedly helped suppress) the IRA border campaign. That alone is worth it.

    Okay so do you think there should be any limits of the power of the state when it comes to catching "scum or perverts"? How do you feel about the use of torture for instance (the whole Kerry Babies saga throws an interesting light both of Irish authoritarianism and why torture is often counter-productive)?


  • #25
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    It does however raise a question- and we should be asking this in relation to the abolition of the Senate-whether the Irish have an authoritarian streak that the English, Scots and Welsh generally lack?
    Never heard that before in my life. I've only ever heard "The Irish bend over and take it up the jacksie all the time."

    Besides the Offences Against The State Act, what other examples of poor form when it comes to personal liberties are prevalent in Irish society?
    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Why? You seem to prove that there is an extremely authoritarian streak in many Irish people.
    As one person he does?


  • #26
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Never heard that before in my life. I've only ever heard "The Irish bend over and take it up the jacksie all the time."

    Besides the Offences Against The State Act, what other examples of poor form when it comes to personal liberties are prevalent in Irish society?

    As one person he does?

    He seems to be being back up here does he not?

    The "Heavy Gang" would be an example of authoritarianism and disregard for civil liberties in Ireland.


  • #27
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Okay so do you think there should be any limits of the power of the state when it comes to catching "scum or perverts"? How do you feel about the use of torture for instance (the whole Kerry Babies saga throws an interesting light both of Irish authoritarianism and why torture is often counter-productive)?
    Depends on the situation. If it could be proven that torturing one guy will lead to other people's lives being spared then yes. I would support it.


  • #28
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    He seems to be being back up here does he not?
    Not sure how a few Boards posters not acting particularly authoritatively, just disagreeing with you, indicates there is an authoritarian streak in the Irish psyche. Historically there isn't much evidence of it either. There are of course plenty of individual Irish people with an authoritarian streak - as with any people.


  • #29
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Not sure how a few Boards posters not acting particularly authoritatively, just disagreeing with you, indicates there is an authoritarian streak in the Irish psyche. Historically there isn't much evidence of it either. There are of course plenty of individual Irish people with an authoritarian streak - as with any people.

    Really? Just look at how much support the DUP and Fine Gael get within the country. Just look at how much support there was Franco's coup in Spain in the 1930s. The history of censorship and the narrow limits on public discourse in both states in the nation.


  • #30
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Really? Just look at how much support the DUP and Fine Gael get within the country. Just look at how much support there was Franco's coup in Spain in the 1930s. The history of censorship and the narrow limits on public discourse in both states in the nation.
    Ireland was also colonised though - the legacy of colonialism doesn't lift overnight.

    I don't know that voting FG is a sign of having an authoritarian streak.
    The DUP hardly has much support down here.


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  • #31
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Depends on the situation. If it could be proven that torturing one guy will lead to other people's lives being spared then yes. I would support it.

    That is a very abstract situation that will never exist in the real world. In the real world torture sometimes works and sometimes doesnt.

    Both the Provos and the UK state used torture- both were equally evil in doing so.

    How do you feel about the real life use of torture by your state?


  • #32
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    That is a very abstract situation that will never exist in the real world. In the real world torture sometimes works and sometimes doesnt.

    Both the Provos and the UK state used torture- both were equally evil in doing so.

    How do you feel about the real life use of torture by your state?

    Which has what exactly to do with the thread title?
    Why start a thread and choose to derail it yourself?:confused:


  • #33
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Not sure how a few Boards posters not acting particularly authoritatively, just disagreeing with you, indicates there is an authoritarian streak in the Irish psyche. Historically there isn't much evidence of it either. There are of course plenty of individual Irish people with an authoritarian streak - as with any people.

    ...the law on condoms, divorce, abortion, censorship of books, cinema etc...?


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