Coach air conditioning (Split from Bus Éireann 109/A thread)

sofireland

The frequency of the service is not what I or most people complain about. That aspect is fantastic.

Its the numerous other incidents that are all too common that infuriate us. We all pay for the privilege of public transport is it too much to expect comfort on a very modern fleet on a regular basis. Again the heat was on this morning. Dont get me wrong its not as warm but its not cold enough to justify using the heating yet.

There are one or two drivers that daily commuters will know are not people people and sadly there is no other choice where you could vote with your feet too.

horseburger

sofireland wrote: »

The frequency of the service is not what I or most people complain about. That aspect is fantastic.

Its the numerous other incidents that are all too common that infuriate us. We all pay for the privilege of public transport is it too much to expect comfort on a very modern fleet on a regular basis. Again the heat was on this morning. Dont get me wrong its not as warm but its not cold enough to justify using the heating yet.

There are one or two drivers that daily commuters will know are not people people and sadly there is no other choice where you could vote with your feet too.

Was it a double deck bus you were on?

I have found that when the heat is turned on these buses, it can be much warmer in the upper deck than the lower deck.

I've noticed that it's usually warmer upstairs, probably because of not getting the impact of air that comes in when the door opens.

Do you know if there is the option on a bus of turning the heat down to a lower temperature for upstairs and having it at a different setting downstairs, rather than just turning it on or off? I don't know, but it might be possible.

sofireland

I don't know the working but I assume being a modern coach they pick a temp and choose to have rads on or off. I was upstairs. The reason its never sauna like downstairs is no driver will sit in it. Itd be like driving the car with no AC on. Their comfort comes first. I always look for seat downstairs for this reason alas on the day in question there was none.

When I asked the second time his response was v defensive and my option suck it up or transfer to another bus in dunshaughlin. In what universe is that acceptable?

It can not be that complicated a system. It should not be a lottery of being too hot or comfortable.

Also re the complaints. I have been tweeting every 24 hrs since I sent my email and they said we won't come back until we investigate. Well how about acknowledging the email is recd and give an idea of when you can expect an update.

AlekSmart

sofireland wrote: »

I don't know the working but I assume being a modern coach they pick a temp and choose to have rads on or off. I was upstairs. The reason its never sauna like downstairs is no driver will sit in it. Itd be like driving the car with no AC on. Their comfort comes first. I always look for seat downstairs for this reason alas on the day in question there was none.

When I asked the second time his response was v defensive and my option suck it up or transfer to another bus in dunshaughlin. In what universe is that acceptable?

It can not be that complicated a system. It should not be a lottery of being too hot or comfortable.

Also re the complaints. I have been tweeting every 24 hrs since I sent my email and they said we won't come back until we investigate. Well how about acknowledging the email is recd and give an idea of when you can expect an update.

Depending on the vehicle concerned,it can be a very complex system indeed.

Your dig at the Driver is also largely invalid as the Cab Area is seperately H & V'd via it's own Heating/Demisting circuit.

With modern Bus and Coach H & V systems largely all now Automatic,Thermostatically Controlled it tends to be a more of a Manufacturers programming issue.

It would be instructive for you to find out what the Thermostat setting is on the coach type concerned (perhaps an FOI request ?)
One thing is for certain,Bus & Coach Heating and Ventilation systems are one of THE most problematic areas of engineering to satisfy...just try a quick Google of "New London Bus Heating" to get an idea of the scale of the problem.

Our particular climate,being as changeable as it is,also poses serious challenges for a H&V system manufacturer,whose products may well work excellently in Southern Europe,Asia or Africa but which struggle when expected to cope with all seasons in a single journey time span...?

But I suppose,when in doubt,blame the Driver...;)

tom23

AlekSmart wrote: »

Depending on the vehicle concerned,it can be a very complex system indeed.

Your dig at the Driver is also largely invalid as the Cab Area is seperately H & V'd via it's own Heating/Demisting circuit.

With modern Bus and Coach H & V systems largely all now Automatic,Thermostatically Controlled it tends to be a more of a Manufacturers programming issue.

It would be instructive for you to find out what the Thermostat setting is on the coach type concerned (perhaps an FOI request ?)
One thing is for certain,Bus & Coach Heating and Ventilation systems are one of THE most problematic areas of engineering to satisfy...just try a quick Google of "New London Bus Heating" to get an idea of the scale of the problem.

Our particular climate,being as changeable as it is,also poses serious challenges for a H&V system manufacturer,whose products may well work excellently in Southern Europe,Asia or Africa but which struggle when expected to cope with all seasons in a single journey time span...?

But I suppose,when in doubt,blame the Driver...;)

I think alek, the poster is not blaming the driver for a manufacturing problem, its a case of not what you say but how you say it? If its the same driver in question I can only imagine his response. There is some excellent drivers on the 109, excellent, but there is also ones that are, polite cough , not so excellent. We all know who they are and we avoid in having to engage with them especially when they can perceive it as confrontational.

sofireland

My dig at the driver was more to do with how he handled it. The whole floor downstairs was cool. Upstairs was a sweatbox. Are we to assume that a lot of the h/v systems are faulty? It was warm outside. Not snowing or frosty. But warm.

Even if its a seperate circuit surely the driver should be able to control the system from the cabin. One of the 2008 double deckers.

AlekSmart

sofireland wrote: »

My dig at the driver was more to do with how he handled it. The whole floor downstairs was cool. Upstairs was a sweatbox. Are we to assume that a lot of the h/v systems are faulty? It was warm outside. Not snowing or frosty. But warm.

Even if its a seperate circuit surely the driver should be able to control the system from the cabin. One of the 2008 double deckers.

Ah right....could you define the term "v defensive" though,as I'm interested as to how "offensive" he could have been in the face of such a complaint ?

As Bus & Coach Heating and Ventilation systems have developed,so too have customer expectations,but I'm not convinced that the current Climate Control systems are as effective on Inter-Urban work as they are on Coach Touring for example.

In this instance,if the Drivers control panel is displaying a particular setting which is at odds with the actual ambiance upstairs then there's little he can do except maybe switch it off altogether,with no guarantee that that will work either.

Or have you an inkling that the Driver,in this case was unfamiliar with the H&V controls ?

sofireland

Offensive, defensive not reaply much difference. Lets just say his reaction wasnt customer friendly. More or less said what you want me to do about it the dial says x. You can swap buses if ya like. Not really acceptable when you are going to work.

I personally think he probably doesnt know how to work it and he would not be alone in that. In my experience.

AlekSmart

sofireland wrote: »

Offensive,defensive not really much difference. Lets just say his reaction wasnt customer friendly. More or less said what you want me to do about it the dial says x. You can swap buses if ya like. Not really acceptable when you are going to work.

I personally think he probably doesnt know how to work it and he would not be alone in that. In my experience.

Ask him straight out next-time....?

If that is the case then you've got your rabbit,all that remains is for you to skin it.

sofireland

Obviously you havent dealt with this individual. On the same journey he had altercations with passengers at the ardboyne stop. The kind of person who would take it well if you said "do you know how to work it"

LXFlyer

AlekSmart wrote: »

Ask him straight out next-time....?

If that is the case then you've got your rabbit,all that remains is for you to skin it.

Alek, lets be honest about this - both BE and DB have certain drivers that are simply not customer friendly and approachable like yourself.

The vast majority are decent people, and friendly and professional, but there are some, and I can certainly think of one driver on one of my local routes, that looks the other way when people are boarding, never responds to a thank you and frankly has an attitude to his passengers that is totally unprofessional.

I don't think you're being particularly fair on this - bear in mind that several people have made the same comment. That would suggest an attitude problem!

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

Alek, lets be honest about this - both BE and DB have certain drivers that are simply not customer friendly and approachable like yourself.

The vast majority are decent people, and friendly and professional, but there are some, and I can certainly think of one driver on one of my local routes, that looks the other way when people are boarding, never responds to a thank you and frankly has an attitude to his passengers that is totally unprofessional.

I don't think you're being particularly fair on this - bear in mind that several people have made the same comment. That would suggest an attitude problem!

Less of the "approachable" please...I have a reputation to consider y'know !

Perhaps I'm being obtuse,but I would actually ask the Driver,as pleasantly as possible does he think the Heating controls are working....prompt him to respond with a question of his own perhaps,such as "Why....Is there a problem ? ".....Or ask him if he thinks the controls are over-complex (Which I think in some cases they are)...or then,maybe,just maybe note the Fleet Number and phone/e-mail a specific complaint to the Service Delivery Manager....but with the evenins drawin in and the temperature droppin,Mother Nature will probably save the day....until next year ?

sofireland

If a lay person asked you are you sure its working at your place of work youd probably be insulted. In this case he was aware there was an issue as they were notified at old bridge stop. To which he said yeah I'll turn on the fans. By dunshaughlin no fans or air circulation. Went down again. Rinse repeat we are going round in circles.

Surely BE should be training their drivers how to use these highly complex h/v systems. When something new comes onstream at work we get trained and tested to make sure we know what we are at. Shouldnt we expect the same here?

BE have been in touch with me. Needless to say they have said theyll get the service engineers to check it out. Conversely the individual in question was driving this morning again..guess what. Perfectly balanced temperature? Different bus perhaps or maybe he took it on board from the other day. Who knows?

AlekSmart

sofireland wrote: »

If a lay person asked you are you sure its working at your place of work youd probably be insulted. In this case he was aware there was an issue as they were notified at old bridge stop. To which he said yeah I'll turn on the fans. By dunshaughlin no fans or air circulation. Went down again. Rinse repeat we are going round in circles.

Surely BE should be training their drivers how to use these highly complex h/v systems. When something new comes onstream at work we get trained and tested to make sure we know what we are at. Shouldnt we expect the same here?

BE have been in touch with me. Needless to say they have said theyll get the service engineers to check it out. Conversely the individual in question was driving this morning again..guess what. Perfectly balanced temperature? Different bus perhaps or maybe he took it on board from the other day. Who knows?

So this fine fellow,in response to the complaint,replied.....

"Yea,I'll turn on the fans"....or am I reading it wrong ?

Either way,the fans did not turn on.....?

Rinse & Repeat,as in ye asked him again,presumably same (positive) response ?

What IF..our man DID turn on the fans...?....Twice even...? but the system did'nt respond to his input...? Technical Fault ?... or is it the case that there's a suggestion that he did'nt out of malice ?

Mind you,the last para seems to indicate that our gentleman Driver does actually know how to operate the H&V system and that the issue WAS actually with the Individual Vehicle rather than the Individual Driver.......Could that scenario be even remotely possible..??

I havta ask,because,as I was'nt there,I'm trying to see past the immediate insinuation that it HAS to be the Drivers malevolence which caused the discomfort upstairs...I'm now kinda seeing that there could well be another,less sinister,explanation ?

sofireland

Obviously a faulty system could have been the cause. I never said that wasnt a possibility.

My main point was this guys reaction. Rather than saying. Oh right they're not on. That's odd because the dial is saying they are. It must be faulty. He went with the blunt defensive statement as previously outlined.

horseburger

sofireland wrote: »

Obviously a faulty system could have been the cause. I never said that wasnt a possibility.

My main point was this guys reaction. Rather than saying. Oh right they're not on. That's odd because the dial is saying they are. It must be faulty. He went with the blunt defensive statement as previously outlined.

hi sofireland

can you let us know if Bus Éireann give an explanation as to why it was much warmer upstairs.

I would have thought it was warmer upstairs, not necessarily because of a heating fault, but that it may heat up quicker there because it is a slightly narrower more enclosed and snug space than the seated area downstairs.

I would have thought also that another factor would be that upstairs doesn't get the extra cold air whenever the door opens.

sofireland

They didnt offer an explanation why just that they have referred to a service engineer to check the system.

The ac in my car isnt effective when the window is open so I imagine the same principle applies downstairs. Generally it is cooler down there. for what reasons I dont know.

etchyed

horseburger wrote: »

hi sofireland

can you let us know if Bus Éireann give an explanation as to why it was much warmer upstairs.

I would have thought it was warmer upstairs, not necessarily because of a heating fault, but that it may heat up quicker there because it is a slightly narrower more enclosed and snug space than the seated area downstairs.

I would have thought also that another factor would be that upstairs doesn't get the extra cold air whenever the door opens.

Much as this heating conversation is getting incredibly tedious, let me just nip this one in the bud. There is a problem with the heating on some of BÉ's double decker coaches, meaning the upstairs is often unbearably hot, far more than could be explained by your rather patronising post, the contention of which could be summed up as "hot air rises". No. You've evidently not been on one of these buses.

Alek, I'm not going to get into a debate with you over this, but in the past I've been impressed with your ability to view things in an impartial manner, despite being both an insider and very much on the front line, having to deal with crap from customers. This ability is not on display in this thread. As you've acknowledged before, there is a small but significant subset of the staff of all three CIÉ companies who are simply not suited to public-facing roles, to put it kindly. It would be nice if you stopped trying to explain and justify their behaviour.

horseburger

etchyed wrote: »

Much as this heating conversation is getting incredibly tedious, let me just nip this one in the bud. There is a problem with the heating on some of BÉ's double decker coaches, meaning the upstairs is often unbearably hot, far more than could be explained by your rather patronising post, the contention of which could be summed up as "hot air rises". No. You've evidently not been on one of these buses.
.

I use 109 buses regularly and my post was not intended to be patronising. You shouldn't assume that you are going to conclude the dialogue and in the same paragraph accuse me of being patronising.

I often find that it is warmer upstairs, I don't know the reason for that, but that is what I find.

Have you looked into it to establish why that is the case, if you think what I suggested is incorrect?

If so, let us know.

I would be interested to know if the poster to whom I was replying, sofireland, thought I was bring patronising, because it wasn't intended.

AlekSmart

etchyed wrote: »

Much as this heating conversation is getting incredibly tedious, let me just nip this one in the bud. There is a problem with the heating on some of BÉ's double decker coaches, meaning the upstairs is often unbearably hot, far more than could be explained by your rather patronising post, the contention of which could be summed up as "hot air rises". No. You've evidently not been on one of these buses.

Alek, I'm not going to get into a debate with you over this, but in the past I've been impressed with your ability to view things in an impartial manner, despite being both an insider and very much on the front line, having to deal with crap from customers. This ability is not on display in this thread. As you've acknowledged before, there is a small but significant subset of the staff of all three CIÉ companies who are simply not suited to public-facing roles, to put it kindly. It would be nice if you stopped trying to explain and justify their behaviour.

Is the problem however,a BE specific one or is it a Jonckheere one,as that would be of relevance to the OP's specific case.

Hafta say I neither know,nor carry a torch for the BE (or any) Driver concerned,however in the absence of any balancing post,I'll stick my oar in anyway (beggin your pardon,of course)

Rather than being seen as trying to justify any particular behaviour in this case,I'm content to try seperating the mechanical issue from the human one,as they appear to have somewhat different origins ?

Sofireland:It is actually a sick joke. Was in double digits temperature wise today. Why was it on in the first place. Went down asked nicely He said,yeah no bother. Nearly melted by dunshaughlin and went down again and more or less said "its saying its on what can I do" well Mr,I hardly came back down the stairs for a laugh.

"He said,Yea,no bother"

Sofireland: When I asked the second time his response was v defensive and my option suck it up or transfer to another bus in dunshaughlin. In what universe is that acceptable?

"It's saying it's on,what can I do?"

Since I was'nt privvy to the actual conversation,I can only use the OP's written account,which describes the Drivers second response as "v defensive"...perhaps,but It could also suggest "frustrated" or "despondent" as worthy of consideration ?

Sofireland: There are one or two drivers that daily commuters will know are not people people and sadly there is no other choice where you could vote with your feet too.

So is our Driver,in this instance,amongst the "One or Two" who fail the "People Person" test ?

However,the OP does appear to have decided that rather than a Mechanical problem in this instance,it is down to the (any?) Drivers deliberate choice of H&V settings...

Sofireland: The reason its never sauna like downstairs is no driver will sit in it...... Their comfort comes first.....

Cut and dried...no room for any doubt there ?

SofIreland: More or less said what you want me to do about it the dial says x. You can swap buses if ya like. Not really acceptable when you are going to work.

Not acceptable at any time,however,given that the Driver is not a H&V technician,I'd suggest it's the best offer possible in those circumstances,at that time ?

The alternative,may well be to declare the vehicle Unfit for Service at that point,refuse to operate it any further on the basis of Customer Observations re the heat....Had the Driver taken this action,would it be deemed "acceptable"?

Sorry that I can't be any nicer today folks....:)

sofireland

Ugh, i'd a reply written out and damn computer borked.
Anyway, we're going round in circles here.

To concisely simplify my position for you. I asked nicely re the heat, he was pleasant at first, then second time he wasn't. We ok there yeah? On the day in question he also had an altercation that I saw on here with passenger(s)
Whether it was a malfunction of not that caused his bemusement, is not relevant, he shouldn't spoke to me like that. If its a known issue how am i meant to know as i'm not an employee of BE?

I can only form my opinion from what i've seen and experienced as a daily commuter on the 109. I know i'm not alone in that. Given the heat problems i've experienced a few times, and I can't honestly recall a situation where both floors are as hot as the other. Usually the ground floor is cool.

How much training do the guys get on the system? Do they log problems? Are they followed up on? All questions I can't answer.

Ultimately i can only hope that my complaint gets someone to look into it, and that other people also complain as well. As ultimately we don't complain enough as people, in the majority of cases we just suck it up, and mumble under our breath to our friends etc. Rather than engaging with the organisation involved. I've no idea that my complaint will be actioned, but in good faith i assume it will be.

horseburger

sofireland wrote: »

Ugh, i'd a reply written out and damn computer borked.
Anyway, we're going round in circles here.

To concisely simplify my position for you. I asked nicely re the heat, he was pleasant at first, then second time he wasn't. We ok there yeah? On the day in question he also had an altercation that I saw on here with passenger(s)
Whether it was a malfunction of not that caused his bemusement, is not relevant, he shouldn't spoke to me like that. If its a known issue how am i meant to know as i'm not an employee of BE?

I can only form my opinion from what i've seen and experienced as a daily commuter on the 109. I know i'm not alone in that. Given the heat problems i've experienced a few times, and I can't honestly recall a situation where both floors are as hot as the other. Usually the ground floor is cool.

How much training do the guys get on the system? Do they log problems? Are they followed up on? All questions I can't answer.

Ultimately i can only hope that my complaint gets someone to look into it, and that other people also complain as well. As ultimately we don't complain enough as people, in the majority of cases we just suck it up, and mumble under our breath to our friends etc. Rather than engaging with the organisation involved. I've no idea that my complaint will be actioned, but in good faith i assume it will be.

Hi sofireland,

It was suggested by someone above, in post #485, that my earlier response to you regarding possible explanations for the heating issue, was patronising.

I am curious to know if you thought that, because I want to emphasise that it was not the intention.

It annoyed me somewhat that the poster suggested I was being patronising, considering they asserted that the "this heating conversation is getting incredibly tedious" and assumed they could "just nip this one in the bud" without coming up with a definite explanation for the issue being discussed.

sofireland

I didnt read your post that way.

AlekSmart

sofireland wrote: »

How much training do the guys get on the system? Do they log problems? Are they followed up on? All questions I can't answer.

Ultimately i can only hope that my complaint gets someone to look into it, and that other people also complain as well. As ultimately we don't complain enough as people, in the majority of cases we just suck it up, and mumble under our breath to our friends etc. Rather than engaging with the organisation involved. I've no idea that my complaint will be actioned, but in good faith i assume it will be.

To deal with the H&V issues,Under the Health & Safety at Work regs,Type Training on all new Vehicles and Systems is provided,Problems are logged,"Follow up"however,is where it gets shaky,as BE no longer carry the cushion of Spare Vehicles to cover for unplanned downtime,which leads to prioritization of defects,in much the same way that the Garda PULSE system allocates priority to reported incidents,definitely not a perfect situation,but it reflects the times we live in.

You are certainly correct regarding engaging with the Company on the issue.

One major problem with the H & V issue is that it is transient,weather depenent and will not disable the vehicle at the side of the road (Yet!)

The constant pressure to get the service-fleet out on the road does lead to minor defects being allowed to run on,particularly if a Driver has NOT been appriased of a problem upstairs and behind him.

I'd suggest that the next time it occurs,get a few Names and Contact Numbers of fellow passengers AND the Vehicle Fleet Number and submit this specific complaint by POST to the Service Delivery Manager at Broadstone Depot.

horseburger

sofireland wrote: »

I didnt read your post that way.

Hi sofireland

thanks for your response regarding my post, and If you get another reply from Bus Éireann to your query, it'd be interesting to know what they say.

regards

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

The constant pressure to get the service-fleet out on the road does lead to minor defects being allowed to run on,particularly if a Driver has NOT been appriased of a problem upstairs and behind him.

I'd suggest that the next time it occurs,get a few Names and Contact Numbers of fellow passengers AND the Vehicle Fleet Number and submit this specific complaint by POST to the Service Delivery Manager at Broadstone Depot.

So basic aesthetic maintenance and maintaining heating and ventilation systems has become a casualty of cost saving within the CIE garages and depots, this is maybe not surprising but considering that other private operators have vehicles which retain their regular cleaning and internal maintenance schedules and look eminently better than younger Bus Éireann vehicles and also have working H & V systems should we be concerned for the future of Bus Éireann?

tom23

AlekSmart wrote: »

Is the problem however,a BE specific one or is it a Jonckheere one,as that would be of relevance to the OP's specific case.

Hafta say I neither know,nor carry a torch for the BE (or any) Driver concerned,however in the absence of any balancing post,I'll stick my oar in anyway (beggin your pardon,of course)

Rather than being seen as trying to justify any particular behaviour in this case,I'm content to try seperating the mechanical issue from the human one,as they appear to have somewhat different origins ?



"He said,Yea,no bother"



"It's saying it's on,what can I do?"

Since I was'nt privvy to the actual conversation,I can only use the OP's written account,which describes the Drivers second response as "v defensive"...perhaps,but It could also suggest "frustrated" or "despondent" as worthy of consideration ?



So is our Driver,in this instance,amongst the "One or Two" who fail the "People Person" test ?

However,the OP does appear to have decided that rather than a Mechanical problem in this instance,it is down to the (any?) Drivers deliberate choice of H&V settings...



Cut and dried...no room for any doubt there ?



Not acceptable at any time,however,given that the Driver is not a H&V technician,I'd suggest it's the best offer possible in those circumstances,at that time ?

The alternative,may well be to declare the vehicle Unfit for Service at that point,refuse to operate it any further on the basis of Customer Observations re the heat....Had the Driver taken this action,would it be deemed "acceptable"?

Sorry that I can't be any nicer today folks....:)

As I said in my post, its not what you say its how you say it. The driver in question gets very defensive. Your right in pointing out it seems to be a problem on that particular bus. The AC is not effective in hot weather and its unbearably hot in the cold weather. And that applies to all those buses / model that service Navan. Thats fine, apart from that they are very comfortable.

The driver in question regardless of what question of him is asked gets very animated. No ones perfect, but some drivers are excellent on the customer facing side and some are not. I avoid the ones that are not. It makes life easier.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

So basic aesthetic maintenance and maintaining heating and ventilation systems has become a casualty of cost saving within the CIE garages and depots, this is maybe not surprising but considering that other private operators have vehicles which retain their regular cleaning and internal maintenance schedules and look eminently better than younger Bus Éireann vehicles and also have working H & V systems should we be concerned for the future of Bus Éireann?

Errr...No Foggy.

You'll need to contact the respective Private Operators for their vehicle utilization/mileage stats,then compare their respective vehicle types,usage profile,plus the systems in use along with whatever maintenance contracts may be in place.

Once you've collated all that relevant information you can reach whatever conclusion that matches your mood