Suckler Cow - Fall In Numbers

pakalasa

I heard it from a few pople that there has been a serious amount of suckler culls showing up in the marts in recent weeks. Has anyone else noticed this?
Wonder what the longterm effect will be? Might explain why the powers that be are looking to decouple payments.

simx

pakalasa wrote: »

I heard it from a few pople that there has been a serious amount of suckler culls showing up in the marts in recent weeks. Has anyone else noticed this?
Wonder what the longterm effect will be? Might explain why the powers that be are looking to decouple payments.

I can think of 6 lads within 5 miles of myself that are getting out of them and only one is going dairy, was talking to a man that brought cows to factory this am and he said it was.serious what suckler culls were in it, althoigh from august on most suckler men do scan and let on empties and with the bad year last year there is bound to be a few more not coming around

Muckit

Empties?.... a lot getting the hook that are not. Bad form, I don't knowwhat the answer is... scan in the factory and charge the farmer? Shouldn't be going on anyway

caseman

Alot cutting back around here , hard to know what long term affect it wiil have.
Most lads i know are cutting back an cows and finishing all stock, which will mean less calves in the mart.

blue5000

Lots of ppl very pissed off with suckling round here too, and why wouldn't they be?

• Weanlings are making 170yoyo a head less than last year
• The big 400kg carcase bull is no longer wanted, being able to sell these for 2k a piece gave a nice lump of money to keep their mothers for the winter
• Fodder is scarce in a lot of areas
• Last winter's feed bill, contractor's bills and vets bills still have to be paid in a lot of places
• SCWS is gone
• Lot of ppl finished in REPS
• every time you open the 'comic' it's all about how fantastic 2015 will be for dairying.
• Never mind the weather last summer, spring etc.

Simple Simon would want to deliver a positive message or else there will be no more suckler cows left.

Dampintheattic

Good time to increase numbers in that case.
Following the crowd seldom has merit!

Lastin

The suckler cow is just too expensive to keep, if people don't see a return they exit. The top 3 farmers in our discussion group are going into dairying. The suckler cow is a wealth creator for Ireland inc, the minister and the processors would want to keep that in mind.

1chippy

A serious number of lads got and are getting out of sucklers this year around me. They all seem to be getting into fattening heifers, you can see the rise in heifer prices already in the local mart. I have bought 6 more sucklers and hoping to pick up another few in the next few weeks. theres one good clearance sale coming up that i'm waiting for. As is said every year, next year will be good for beef, but this time i really think it might.

Farmer Pudsey

A lot of farmers doing sucklers were not making money. If you were in a mart year after year there are a lot of weanlings sold that are not 300kgs. These calves cannot pay the farmers that reared them even in year's where costs have not being as high as the last two years.

On top of that the factorys are playing a silly game with bulls. They want them and then they do not. The 16 month spec is not sustainable in Ireland for either dairy or beef bred weanlings. We have a situtation where 70%+ calves are born between January and April so if all calves have to be finished at certain ages we get gluts in the market. Some cattle are not capable of being finished at the age limits prescribed. It is unsustainable to finish cattle off ration in Ireland. In other countries farmers have access to cheap byproducts that reduce there rearing cost whem cattle are indoors.

I can under stand weight limits on carcases and fat specs but age limits that are imposed in Ireland are not sustainable. Maybe in 3-5 years time when dairy herds mature post 2015 we will have access to cheap dairy bred calves however in the meantime we are where we are.

Maybe the lads with the big SFP will not have to pay over the top for weanlings as they will not be there. Maybe a lot of farmers in area's where it is harder to farm and that are holding down a job as well are saying f##k that I cut back reduce my workload and hold onto as much SFP as possible.

Also for all the talk that the fodder situtation is passed in some area's farmers may still not have adequate fodder and have decided to cut back numbers rather than trying to buy fodder during the winter and paying through the nose for it,

Muckit is giving out about some cows not being empty, wait a few years and see what will happen to jersey cross bull calves opr what happens to male kids borg in dairy goat herds. Sensibilities and farming are strage bedfellows and often tough buisness decisions have to be taken.

RaggyDays

You need a good Job to be a Suckler farmer nowadays.

bbam

In fairness lots of lads have been teetering on the breakeven point for quite a few years... 2012/13 just pushed them a bit more then usual and they finally woke up to the fact that they were making nothing worth talking about..

Running a suckler cow that costs ~€600 to keep and then selling weanlings at 9months for €700/750 isn't sustainable. And its a heap of work for feck all return. For the majority of lads at it - suckling isn't an enterprise that can sustain a farm.

Even at €400 pure profit, a level I'd say very few make, it would take 75 sucklers to be making €30k a year for a fulltime farmer.

manjou

I bulled all heifers this year of best cows and will do same next year so should increase numbers as everyone is getting out yo go buying drystock so will be more round ring. Changing breeding policey to get cattle that will finish under 16 months easily. bringing angus breedeing into herd to do this and also reduce wintering costs for cows. Watching and listening to all dairying friends to see how they are doing things as they are way ahead in cost management than alot of suckler farmers including myself so am giving it a couple of more years to see how it all pans out because as to panic now may regret it later.

Dunedin

bbam wrote: »

In fairness lots of lads have been teetering on the breakeven point for quite a few years... 2012/13 just pushed them a bit more then usual and they finally woke up to the fact that they were making nothing worth talking about..

Running a suckler cow that costs ~€600 to keep and then selling weanlings at 9months for €700/750 isn't sustainable. And its a heap of work for feck all return. For the majority of lads at it - suckling isn't an enterprise that can sustain a farm.

Even at €400 pure profit, a level I'd say very few make, it would take 75 sucklers to be making €30k a year for a fulltime farmer.

I've raised this in the past and I'll raise it again.

When lads compile the €600 cost of keeping a suckler cow, they include all misc expenses such as fencing, insurance, machinery depr, animal health.

Regardless of what type of system you are in, you will have these costs. I never see anyone putting up the cost of keeping a bullock for a year.

The bottom line for me is that firstly; there is not a fortune to be made in any system of farming and unfortunately that is reality.
secondly, systems must change for a lot of (and especially older farmers) to ensure that they are being fully efficient in their methods. I'm not going to go into that as it was covered previously in a thread.

People always go back to the point that it is not sustainable to pay a morgage, raise a family, kids etc on a suckler farm. Yes - that is the situation. but that goes for any beef system - the profit is just not there and it might never be there with the rising costs associated with same. If you are working and earning minimum wage €8.65 an hour, will you be able to pay a morgage, raise kids/family, etc??? not unless you have a partner working also!!

Dairying is the only system that may offer the above. However, it does not suit everyone for a variety of reasons even if they wanted to convert. e.g. farm size and infrastructure, costs associated with set-up, full-time.

More and more (and it's there already) - farming is a part-time job. It will keep money together and it can be a nice side income on top of your main job - pays for holidays, car insurance, etc.

Aside from that, it offers a great break from the daily grind of your job. Personally, I look forward to the weekends more for the opportunity to get out on the farm than for any other reason.

that's my bit for today...... :P:P

Juniorhurler

Well said Dunedin. There is no silver bullet in farming. Farms are just too small in Ireland to get the level of income required to do all of the above in a beef system.
I have a goodish job off farm and would handle 70 sucklers relatively easily as there has been a lot of money spent on the yard to make life less labour intensive.
I am under no illusion, unless there is a change I can never go full time bit when the land is paid for it will be a reasonably good side income and will hopefully educate the kids.

bbam

Dunedin wrote: »

I've raised this in the past and I'll raise it again.

When lads compile the €600 cost of keeping a suckler cow, they include all misc expenses such as fencing, insurance, machinery depr, animal health.

Regardless of what type of system you are in, you will have these costs. I never see anyone putting up the cost of keeping a bullock for a year.

The bottom line for me is that firstly; there is not a fortune to be made in any system of farming and unfortunately that is reality.
secondly, systems must change for a lot of (and especially older farmers) to ensure that they are being fully efficient in their methods. I'm not going to go into that as it was covered previously in a thread.

People always go back to the point that it is not sustainable to pay a morgage, raise a family, kids etc on a suckler farm. Yes - that is the situation. but that goes for any beef system - the profit is just not there and it might never be there with the rising costs associated with same. If you are working and earning minimum wage €8.65 an hour, will you be able to pay a morgage, raise kids/family, etc??? not unless you have a partner working also!!

Dairying is the only system that may offer the above. However, it does not suit everyone for a variety of reasons even if they wanted to convert. e.g. farm size and infrastructure, costs associated with set-up, full-time.

More and more (and it's there already) - farming is a part-time job. It will keep money together and it can be a nice side income on top of your main job - pays for holidays, car insurance, etc.

Aside from that, it offers a great break from the daily grind of your job. Personally, I look forward to the weekends more for the opportunity to get out on the farm than for any other reason.

that's my bit for today...... :P:P

I see where your coming from.
It's just a sad indictment of the industry if the best we can expect is for it to keep a few euro together.

Conmaicne Mara

pakalasa wrote: »

Might explain why the powers that be are looking to decouple payments.

The coupled payment, sorry, the proposed coupled payment is €100 for a cow, €10 for a sheep. Thats robbing the sheep farmer, a cow is worth just under 7 ewes in terms of livestock units. So the paltry €10 per ewe coupling is not on at all. It would have to be pretty much €15 just to keep a level playing field.

The funding is also an issue. €36m from Pillar one, and €36 from Pillar two - then there's a heap coming from elsewhere but that's not what I have the problem with so much. It's the €36m from Pillar two, which will in reality be €72m gone out of Pillar two because the matching €36m in co-funding will also vanish.

So if you farm sheep and get money from Pillar two (depending on numbers), you're getting screwed twice. Less money per ewe than is fair, and twice the amount coming from Pillar two than Pillar one. What's happening is a wealth transfer in the wrong direction.

Nice, not.

keep going

Lastin wrote: »

The suckler cow is just too expensive to keep, if people don't see a return they exit. The top 3 farmers in our discussion group are going into dairying. The suckler cow is a wealth creator for Ireland inc, the minister and the processors would want to keep that in mind.

Suckler s have become lawnmowers nothing more

reilig

Personally I think that there is still room in Ireland's Farming economy for sucklers. But I do believe that the majority of suckler farmers in Ireland are playing a game that they cannot win. I have posted many times here about my confidence of my future in suckler farming. I am open to change. I am open to new practices. I am open to new ideas. The majority of suckler farmers in this country are not. The majority of suckler farmers are not farming to make profit. They are farming just to live. They are not relying on their farm to deliver a substantial income every year. Most have pensions, an off farm job or an employed spouse that is able to put food on the table. While this situation continues, there will always be suckler farmers who don't need to make money and have tax liabilities. There will always be weinlings sold at below the cost of production which will continue to tighten the noose around the neck of those that do need to make an income.

However, there is light at the end of the tunnel. Our booming milk industry was in a similar situation not that long ago. People sat down and educated themselves and educated each other in order to bring about the current dairy boom. There's no reason why those suckler farmers who want to make profit from sucklers cannot be educated to do so.

Costs can be reduced. Make better use of slurry, forward graze, reseeding, paddocks, feed crops, better health management etc. etc. The BTAP was established to do this, but how many people posted on this forum that they didn't join because €1000 was not enough to pay them to do it. If some people had to pay €1000 to do it, then I believe that the value of the return would be multiples of €1000 as a result of joining it and putting things into practice.


The value of the product can be increased by developing new markets, increasing the green image, raising the standard etc, and ultimately higher prices can be achieved for those who put the work into it. We need a strong body to take this on for us and to develop it for us. The IFA currently have no interest in improving the lot for suckler farmers. There are 2 reasons for this:
1. They are too cosy with the meat factories who collect their subs to fund them.
2. Many of their bigger members are cattle finishers.

Increased prices for suckler farmers hit the pockets of the 2 above.


Suckler farmers are not at the top of their game in Ireland. In fact, to give it a local context, they are at about Junior C level. ie. The lads that are pulled from the pub to play a game on a sunday afternoon.

If suckler farmers were playing the A game and still losing money then there would be no future in suckler farming.

In the current situation, 90% of suckler farmers are playing at Junior C level with the rest playing A + B. It's impossible for the 10% to put the 90% on their shoulders and still play their own game so:

either, we heal, now, as a team, or we will die as individuals. That's farming guys, that's all it is. Now, what are you gonna do?

RaggyDays

Ah come on Relig your talking sh1t3 there.
"Costs can be reduced. Make better use of slurry, forward graze, reseeding, paddocks, feed crops, better health management etc. etc."
How can you reduce Slurry costs? I don`t see diesel or machinery getting any cheaper, the same for reseeding, there’s no way it could pay a suckling farmer to reseed, the costs are just prohibitive.
The reality is that the current Suckling system is not sustainable.
Its too reliant on Machinery, fertilizers, expensive fodder and concentrates to produce the final product. A lot of farmers are now facing up to the fact and are turning back to a zero input extensive farming system ie keep only a quarter of the stock and collect every grant possible

pakalasa

Dunedin wrote: »

I've raised this in the past and I'll raise it again.....

I think Dunedin's post sums it up the best. You could spend your whole life chasing profit, going from one system to another. Far away hills are green, as they say. I was glad to hear suckler cow numbers were falling. It should help lift prices at ringside.:)

reilig

RaggyDays wrote: »

Ah come on Relig your talking sh1t3 there.
"Costs can be reduced. Make better use of slurry, forward graze, reseeding, paddocks, feed crops, better health management etc. etc."
How can you reduce Slurry costs? I don`t see diesel or machinery getting any cheaper, the same for reseeding, there’s no way it could pay a suckling farmer to reseed, the costs are just prohibitive.
The reality is that the current Suckling system is not sustainable.
Its too reliant on Machinery, fertilizers, expensive fodder and concentrates to produce the final product. A lot of farmers are now facing up to the fact and are turning back to a zero input extensive farming system ie keep only a quarter of the stock and collect every grant possible

Read it again - you quoted it. I said that cost's can be reduced by making better use of slurry. i never said that you can reduce the cost of spreading slurry????????? If you spread slurry at the right time of year then you don't need to spread as much fertilizer thus reducing cost!!

I beg to differ about it paying a suckler farmer to reseed. I have the figures on my own farm to prove it.

Regression is one option to reduce cost, but balancing costs with income can yield better financial returns overall if a person is willing to work on it!

bbam

I'll have to agree with allow of what Rellig says.
However I'd put more emphasis on lads not knowing how to make a profit, rather than not needing to or trying to control tax liability - this just how they justify it to themselves. I've seen it myself at home for long enough, average cows running an easy calving bull producing at best average weanlings, you'll see the marts full of them soon.

reilig

bbam wrote: »

I'll have to agree with allow of what Rellig says.
However I'd put more emphasis on lads not knowing how to make a profit, rather than not needing to or trying to control tax liability - this just how they justify it to themselves. I've seen it myself at home for long enough, average cows running an easy calving bull producing at best average weanlings, you'll see the marts full of them soon.

I'll split it with you. I definitely agree about lads not knowing how to make a profit. But this is because there was never a squeeze on them to have to make a profit. :eek:

bbam

So what's the solution.
Plenty of lads (including myself) work full time and farm part time. How do we best get educated?
Many are running sub standard easy calving bulls to cover the option of cows calving when they are away, how can this be better managed ?

I've travelled France and Germany a fair bit and one thing that sticks with me is the Irish passion for cross breeding where our continental brethren seem much more focused on pedigree stock. Would Irish suckler farmers be better suited say to stick with registered Hereford herds rather than Hex cows and CH bulls.
We haven't calved a suckler since 2009 and a bit of me misses it. Maybe if I were better armed I'd give it a go again.

vanderbadger

bbam wrote: »

So what's the solution.
Plenty of lads (including myself) work full time and farm part time. How do we best get educated?
Many are running sub standard easy calving bulls to cover the option of cows calving when they are away, how can this be better managed ?

I've travelled France and Germany a fair bit and one thing that sticks with me is the Irish passion for cross breeding where our continental brethren seem much more focused on pedigree stock. Would Irish suckler farmers be better suited say to stick with registered Hereford herds rather than Hex cows and CH bulls.
We haven't calved a suckler since 2009 and a bit of me misses it. Maybe if I were better armed I'd give it a go again.

wasnt there something in jouro there a few weeks back about italian lots preferring irish cross bred ch to french pure bred, cross breds thrived a bit better, bit hardier also

reilig

bbam wrote: »

So what's the solution.
Plenty of lads (including myself) work full time and farm part time. How do we best get educated?
Many are running sub standard easy calving bulls to cover the option of cows calving when they are away, how can this be better managed ?

I've travelled France and Germany a fair bit and one thing that sticks with me is the Irish passion for cross breeding where our continental brethren seem much more focused on pedigree stock. Would Irish suckler farmers be better suited say to stick with registered Hereford herds rather than Hex cows and CH bulls.
We haven't calved a suckler since 2009 and a bit of me misses it. Maybe if I were better armed I'd give it a go again.

Working full time myself albeit I don't have a 39 hour week which gives me more time on the farm than some.

Are you in BTAP? Do you go to any open days or evenings?

There are plenty of 5 star easy calving bulls available - there is BTAP measure on this.

As Van says, pure bred cattle are often less healthier, have bad feet and are hardier.

bbam

reilig wrote: »

Working full time myself albeit I don't have a 39 hour week which gives me more time on the farm than some.

Are you in BTAP? Do you go to any open days or evenings?

There are plenty of 5 star easy calving bulls available - there is BTAP measure on this.

As Van says, pure bred cattle are often less healthier, have bad feet and are hardier.

Being out of the house most days 8-6 5 days I've always convinced myself I haddnt time. Probably need to knuckle down and make the time.

Toplink

bbam wrote: »

Being out of the house most days 8-6 5 days I've always convinced myself I haddnt time. Probably need to knuckle down and make the time.

I am married with a kid and another one on the way and am gone from 7.30am to 6.30pm 5 days a week. Herself works full time also so Saturdays are hectic.

Dad runs the show and will continue to do so for another 5 to 6 years if he gets his health. But I am starting to do more and more of the admin stuff and I am going to buy a few heifers in the spring to kick off the interest further.

Maybe someday it will happen full time but Bank will the deeds of the house for the next 14 years so it wont happen anytime before then!

towzer2010

I agree with reilig on this. We need to produce the best possible product for the least cost just like every other successful business that produces a product. For that reason the BTAP is great imo. I've visited some good farms that have made me realise what I need to aim for and that it doesn't have to cost a fortune to get there.

CluanBomb

Scary read when I hope to farm full time in the future, is no one comfortably living from beef farming? or is there a system of beef farming that offers better returns than sucklers?

bbam

CluanBomb wrote: »

Scary read when I hope to farm full time in the future, is no one comfortably living from beef farming? or is there a system of beef farming that offers better returns than sucklers?

Indeed..
Those who have the breeding, feeding and costs under control, a decent scale of operations too.
And of course a decent SFP helps too.

RaggyDays

bbam wrote: »

Indeed..
Those who have the breeding, feeding and costs under control, a decent scale of operations too.
And of course a decent SFP helps too.

Whats the point in running a system that’s dependant on a the SFP. Pure waste of time and effort doing that. You`d be better off just collecting and keeping the SFP rather than using it to subsidise a suckling farming system

bbam

RaggyDays wrote: »

Whats the point in running a system that’s dependant on a the SFP. Pure waste of time and effort doing that. You`d be better off just collecting and keeping the SFP rather than using it to subsidise a suckling farming system

I agree..
Personally I don't think the SFP is a positive influence on Irish farming. It has lead to many farms where they live of the SFP and farm because thats what they always did, rather than it being a business. But the whole SFP argument has been done here over and over...

moy83

I think lads need bigger numbers of sucklers to start thinking about turning a decent pound . Most of the lads around here that are saying it doesnt pay are lads with fifteen or twenty cows that are eating bad long grass for a few months of the year and eat nuts they dont need/deserve inside a slatted for the rest of it . There arent many dairy boys living off small numbers of cows either .
Why doesnt the suckler man expand like them when it should be easier if anything when he doesnt need one block of land or quota ?
I think some cows are too good for their job also , if lads were finishing their own cattle they mightnt be as worried about having a nice looking weanling at nine months but instead focusing on cheap kept cow that would leave you an offspring that will finish easily and leave a few bob .
A suckler farmer thats saying it wont pay him to reseed is going nowhere IMO . The more better grass you have = the more and better cattle you will have .

jaymla627

moy83 wrote: »

I think lads need bigger numbers of sucklers to start thinking about turning a decent pound . Most of the lads around here that are saying it doesnt pay are lads with fifteen or twenty cows that are eating bad long grass for a few months of the year and eat nuts they dont need/deserve inside a slatted for the rest of it . There arent many dairy boys living off small numbers of cows either .
Why doesnt the suckler man expand like them when it should be easier if anything when he doesnt need one block of land or quota ?
I think some cows are too good for their job also , if lads were finishing their own cattle they mightnt be as worried about having a nice looking weanling at nine months but instead focusing on cheap kept cow that would leave you an offspring that will finish easily and leave a few bob .
A suckler farmer thats saying it wont pay him to reseed is going nowhere IMO . The more better grass you have = the more and better cattle you will have .

To be fair keeping grass right on a dairy farm is a 100 times easier then in a suckler situation having had a 120 cow suckler herd in the past, used to run the cows as the one mob mostvof the time was handy enough managing grass when the weather was reasonable enough but in bad conditions having to spilt the cows up trying to keep grass ahead of them was a disaster plus utilization was very poor, yeah have to remember to a spring calving suckler herds greatest demand for grass isnt in the spring/summer its in the autumn when growth is slowing down, its crazy the amount of grass 120 cows plus their weanlings could go through in the autumn, comparing dairying grassland techniques such as on-off grazing, meal feeding, housing when the weathers proper wet putting in silage, getting the cows out during the day in the months of feb/march just isnt a easy option with sucklers.

Damo810

It's something I was thinking about a few days ago. With all the people on here asking about converting their beef/suckler farm, or expanding their current dairy operation you would think the flush of suckler cows hitting the market would make for some good value. We've been a drystock farm for a good few years now, I even think the cos were sold before I was born so converting to cows would be quite the change, but if they represented good value, why not?

The more I thought about it though;

If all these finishers are starting up 200+ cow operations, your losing a huge market for beef bred animals/male dairy calves. Not only that, but your going to be bringing 100+ dairy bulls to the market too. Whats going to happen to these? And where's that going to leave the price of beef bred animals? At the moment dairy bred bulls might make good value to some finishers, whats going to happen once we get an even bigger flush of these animals diluting the beef market? We're going to have less buyers and more sellers.

As it is, I think theres money to be made from cows, on most soil types but you'll never make a living off it alone(grants, subsidies aside), unless you have a scaled up operation of 125 acres+, imv.

follett

are you getting good cattle at a good price

1chippy wrote: »

A serious number of lads got and are getting out of sucklers this year around me. They all seem to be getting into fattening heifers, you can see the rise in heifer prices already in the local mart. I have bought 6 more sucklers and hoping to pick up another few in the next few weeks. theres one good clearance sale coming up that i'm waiting for. As is said every year, next year will be good for beef, but this time i really think it might.

Muckit

moy83 wrote: »

. The more better grass you have = the more and better cattle you will have .

Where did you go to national school? !!!! ;-)

moy83

Muckit wrote: »

Where did you go to national school? !!!! ;-)

Ah you know what I mean

moy83

jaymla627 wrote: »

To be fair keeping grass right on a dairy farm is a 100 times easier then in a suckler situation having had a 120 cow suckler herd in the past, used to run the cows as the one mob mostvof the time was handy enough managing grass when the weather was reasonable enough but in bad conditions having to spilt the cows up trying to keep grass ahead of them was a disaster plus utilization was very poor, yeah have to remember to a spring calving suckler herds greatest demand for grass isnt in the spring/summer its in the autumn when growth is slowing down, its crazy the amount of grass 120 cows plus their weanlings could go through in the autumn, comparing dairying grassland techniques such as on-off grazing, meal feeding, housing when the weathers proper wet putting in silage, getting the cows out during the day in the months of feb/march just isnt a easy option with sucklers.

Were you finishing all the calves ? 120 cows and calves must have made some mess going out a wet gap
More to the point was it giving a reasonable wage ?

jaymla627

moy83 wrote: »

Were you finishing all the calves ? 120 cows and calves must have made some mess going out a wet gap
More to the point was it giving a reasonable wage ?

Was some sight alrite no selling as weanlings, wasnt making a penny remember back in the autumn of 2006 bringing 20 smashers of ch bull calves to the mart all where u grade averaged 350 kg made 570 euro one with the other that was the moment i decided f**k that for a game of solders in dairying now and the only good thing i have to say about the sucklers is they where a good help setting up the dairying side when they where sold different world the money your turning have to laugh at any dairy farmer saying there struggling wouldnt like to see them try suckler farming.

Lastin

No matter what improvements you make, margins are too small in suckling. How many cows would you need to give a family farm income of 50k? It is impossible to achieve scale in Ireland and remain profitable.

bogman_bass

50k?:eek: thats twice my full time off farm income,
I have a bachalors degree and work in a technical field.

Do lads have unrealistic expectations?

Farmer Pudsey

RaggyDays wrote: »

Ah come on Relig your talking sh1t3 there.
"Costs can be reduced. Make better use of slurry, forward graze, reseeding, paddocks, feed crops, better health management etc. etc."
How can you reduce Slurry costs? I don`t see diesel or machinery getting any cheaper, the same for reseeding, there’s no way it could pay a suckling farmer to reseed, the costs are just prohibitive.
The reality is that the current Suckling system is not sustainable.
Its too reliant on Machinery, fertilizers, expensive fodder and concentrates to produce the final product. A lot of farmers are now facing up to the fact and are turning back to a zero input extensive farming system ie keep only a quarter of the stock and collect every grant possible

The reason that the cost of reseeding is prohibitive is most suckler as opposed to dairy farmers go for a bells and whistle's job. Spray, plough roll level till and seed. Most dairy farmers use min-til methods. I often see farmers buying slurry spreaders when a sprayer is more important. It only costs between 10-15 euro /acre to spray for weeds however you need a sprayer. This will increase grass o/p by up to 30% and improve your silage no end. If you get 10 bales of good silage/acre it is better than 15/acre when 3-5 are weeds.

Some farmers spend money on concentrates that could be avoided by good quality silage. Reseeding should only cost 200/acre on average if you can spray and roll yourself.

delaval

jaymla627 wrote: »

To be fair keeping grass right on a dairy farm is a 100 times easier then in a suckler situation having had a 120 cow suckler herd in the past, used to run the cows as the one mob mostvof the time was handy enough managing grass when the weather was reasonable enough but in bad conditions having to spilt the cows up trying to keep grass ahead of them was a disaster plus utilization was very poor, yeah have to remember to a spring calving suckler herds greatest demand for grass isnt in the spring/summer its in the autumn when growth is slowing down, its crazy the amount of grass 120 cows plus their weanlings could go through in the autumn, comparing dairying grassland techniques such as on-off grazing, meal feeding, housing when the weathers proper wet putting in silage, getting the cows out during the day in the months of feb/march just isnt a easy option with sucklers.

Are you new to dairy?

jaymla627

delaval wrote: »

Are you new to dairy?

In the sense of my own set-up only started this year as a new entrant, have proberly cupped over 7,000 different cows the past four years between places ive worked on/managed decided to go milking in 08 so instead of jumping right-in got as much expirence as i could first-off its always better to practise on someone elses cows/farm first would be my words of advice anyone thinking of going milking.

Lastin

bogman_bass wrote: »

50k?:eek: thats twice my full time off farm income,
I have a bachalors degree and work in a technical field.

Do lads have unrealistic expectations?

That a teagasc figure for what it costs to maintain a household and its a combined figure, yours and your spouse.

rancher

reilig wrote: »

Personally I think that there is still room in Ireland's Farming economy for sucklers. But I do believe that the majority of suckler farmers in Ireland are playing a game that they cannot win. I have posted many times here about my confidence of my future in suckler farming. I am open to change. I am open to new practices. I am open to new ideas. The majority of suckler farmers in this country are not. The majority of suckler farmers are not farming to make profit. They are farming just to live. They are not relying on their farm to deliver a substantial income every year. Most have pensions, an off farm job or an employed spouse that is able to put food on the table. While this situation continues, there will always be suckler farmers who don't need to make money and have tax liabilities. There will always be weinlings sold at below the cost of production which will continue to tighten the noose around the neck of those that do need to make an income.

However, there is light at the end of the tunnel. Our booming milk industry was in a similar situation not that long ago. People sat down and educated themselves and educated each other in order to bring about the current dairy boom. There's no reason why those suckler farmers who want to make profit from sucklers cannot be educated to do so.

Costs can be reduced. Make better use of slurry, forward graze, reseeding, paddocks, feed crops, better health management etc. etc. The BTAP was established to do this, but how many people posted on this forum that they didn't join because €1000 was not enough to pay them to do it. If some people had to pay €1000 to do it, then I believe that the value of the return would be multiples of €1000 as a result of joining it and putting things into practice.


The value of the product can be increased by developing new markets, increasing the green image, raising the standard etc, and ultimately higher prices can be achieved for those who put the work into it. We need a strong body to take this on for us and to develop it for us. The IFA currently have no interest in improving the lot for suckler farmers. There are 2 reasons for this:
1. They are too cosy with the meat factories who collect their subs to fund them.
2. Many of their bigger members are cattle finishers.

Increased prices for suckler farmers hit the pockets of the 2 above.


Suckler farmers are not at the top of their game in Ireland. In fact, to give it a local context, they are at about Junior C level. ie. The lads that are pulled from the pub to play a game on a sunday afternoon.

If suckler farmers were playing the A game and still losing money then there would be no future in suckler farming.

In the current situation, 90% of suckler farmers are playing at Junior C level with the rest playing A + B. It's impossible for the 10% to put the 90% on their shoulders and still play their own game so:

From memory, I think you yourself stated that you had a margin of €400 per cow over what it costs to maintain the cow and replace her, (gross margin). Even if you're stocking at a cow/acre, I don't see this as an adequate gross margin to pay your fixed costs and pay yourself. I don't think you have seen the real fixed costs as you been insulated by two incomes coming in ......even the guys doing a good job are under pressure now, especially if they are trying to live on it

Muckit

moy83 wrote: »

Ah you know what I mean

Only messin Moy83. I do of course. Sure your speaking my language. I 'do be' at the same thing. The missus is always pullin me on it, she's from limerick don't you know...

Muckit

Let's stir it up..... why are lads exporting cattle live out of the country? Surely it's be better for the economy if all cattle reared in Ireland were killed here. Keep all the added value in the country.... and the jobs!!

I also believe that the majority of suckler farmers should be finishing their own stock instead of blowing meal into young cattle with creeps. They're eating the meal that they should only be getting a few weeks before they get the hook.

reilig

Muckit wrote: »

Let's stir it up..... why are lads exporting cattle live out of the country? Surely it's be better for the economy if all cattle reared in Ireland were killed here. Keep all the added value in the country.... and the jobs!!

I also believe that the majority of suckler farmers should be finishing their own stock instead of blowing meal into young cattle with creeps. They're eating the meal that they should only be getting a few weeks before they get the hook.

Go away out of that. Exporting live cattle out of the country breaks up the monopoly that meat factories have on cattle prices in this country. The more cattle that we can export, the less cattle that will be for the factories and the more money they will have to pay guys like you to sell your cattle to them for slaughtering. I believe that there is more added value by bringing in foreign money for weinlings and paying it to farmers for them (through dealers & marts) than having an uncontrolled situation where factories can determine the price that they pay farmers for cattle based on how much profit they need to make and not on the cost of producing cattle.

Who puts more money into the economy - farmers or factories? I'll put it this way, you don't see many factories going out there buying ration, machines, building sheds etc, etc.

Both exporting and factories have their place, but as farmers we need exporting to keep the pressure on factories!!