Suicide - Downturn in Economy

theGEM

Just reading about the Priory Hall case today and how the banks are causing stress and people to take their own lives etc. But then I see Greece has the lowest suicide rate in the EU and their economy is worse than ours. I wonder what we're doing wrong in this country. Is it easy to blame the recession and the banks when the real problem is something else. Something that be fixed now. Any thoughts??

Top prof tells the banks, 'I'll blame you for suicides'

Psychiatrist targets lenders on behalf of patients feeling strain over increased financial pressures

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/top-prof-tells-the-banks-ill-blame-you-for-suicides-29418331.html

Considering the population as a whole, Ireland has the sixth lowest rate of death by suicide in the EU, compared with the lowest rate of 3.9 in Greece and the highest of 34.0 in Lithuania.

http://www.thejournal.ie/suicide-rates-1070842-Sep2013/

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/12/09/business/economy/suicideratesoecd.jpg

donegal__road

at least they have decent weather in Greece..

I think that the suicide rate increased here since the start of the recession,

you didnt happen to see this today btw

Tigger

Suicide is very under reported in ireland a lot of suicides by crashing a car are reported as accidental death. That's why our rate seems low.
People don't kill the selves because of a letter from the bank and banks should t be held responsible for someone killing the self due to having been sent a letter.
It's all a media circus at the moment .

theGEM

Tigger wrote: »

Suicide is very under reported in ireland a lot of suicides by crashing a car are reported as accidental death. That's why our rate seems low.
People don't kill the selves because of a letter from the bank and banks should t be held responsible for someone killing the self due to having been sent a letter.
It's all a media circus at the moment .

That's what I have heard, doctors and the corroners court will do everything to avoid naming suicide as the cause of death for the families sake. Perhaps it's the same in Greece - never belive statistics.

road_high

There's a lot of pressure to show face in Ireland. People are very into what "do u work at" here. If you are out of work here people judge you almost , and ask what are you goin to do, "would you consider goin abroad"? Have a Friend living in Spain and he says no one really asks what you work at (or not). People don't judge you if unemployed like here, or measure you as a person by your job and earnings. Could all be one reason why suicides are higher here.

mikemac1

Tigger wrote: »

Suicide is very under reported in ireland a lot of suicides by crashing a car are reported as accidental death. That's why our rate seems low.

And that accident can be someone falling asleep at the wheel. Lots of shift workers in Ireland

It's not called suicide as there is zero proof it was and speculation can be hurtful.

Driving while tired can be as dangerous as driving drunk

Skid X

Dr Ivor Browne says he has been seeking out the names of bank staff responsible for the pressure his patients are under before issuing them with the formal notice ...

"I am writing letters to the banks holding them personally responsible if this man commits suicide."

That is a grossly irresponsible action for a medical professional to undertake.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of their actions bank employees are only doing their job. Writing this letters is more likely to make bank customers who are in trouble take their own life. And bank employees are people too - imagine receiving a letter like this when you might be under huge stress yourself?

Tigger

mikemac1 wrote: »

And that accident can be someone falling asleep at the wheel. Lots of shift workers in Ireland

It's not called suicide as there is zero proof it was and speculation can be hurtful.

Driving while tired can be as dangerous as driving drunk

Shift workers? It's not shift workers dying in single vehicle collisions at night.
Why don't the put on their belts
Why is it found that they were upset and they had drives very fast on a straight road and then hit a wall?
If you don't want to believe that's your prerogative but I have more than speculation. It skews the road death figures and it skews the suicude figures and that means not enough is done to let people know its ok the look for help and its not something to be ashamed of that you feel you can't keep going.

Turtwig

Skid X wrote: »

That is a grossly irresponsible action for a medical professional to undertake.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of their actions bank employees are only doing their job. Writing this letters is more likely to make bank customers who are in trouble take their own life. And bank employees are people too - imagine receiving a letter like this when you might be under huge stress yourself?

There's another side to this though. Many banks are essentially bullying when it comes to debt collecting. Bullying, no matter what form it takes, is psychologically toxic to a person's mental health. Then if you have somebody who's already vulnerable and expose them to bully you've got a very high risk situation.

mikemac1

Tigger wrote: »

If you don't want to believe that's your prerogative but I have more than speculation.

Of course it happens, I believe you there

But nobody has more then speculation. Unless you find a note or the driver declared what they were going to do then it's an accident and the coroner is correct to call it that.

Well they might not say accident, I'm not sure what the official term is. Not suicide anyway

Knob Longman

theGEM wrote: »

That's what I have heard, doctors and the corroners court will do everything to avoid naming suicide as the cause of death for the families sake. Perhaps it's the same in Greece - never belive statistics.

Swept under the carpet in traditional Irish style as if it doesn't exist..

Amirani

Knob Longman wrote: »

Swept under the carpet in traditional Irish style as if it doesn't exist..

You don't think it's got anything to do with the fact that reporting on suicide is proven to lead to an increased suicide rate?

weldoninhio

donegal__road wrote: »

at least they have decent weather in Greece..

I think that the suicide rate increased here since the start of the recession,

you didnt happen to see this today btw

A bank keeping a customer informed of arrears owed!! The humanity!!!

Nodin

weldoninhio wrote: »

A bank keeping a customer informed of arrears owed!! The humanity!!!

A woman made a widow due to that very debt, on a property they have to pay for but can't live in.....yes, the humanity. Or lack of it.

losthorizon

mikemac1 wrote: »

And that accident can be someone falling asleep at the wheel. Lots of shift workers in Ireland

It's not called suicide as there is zero proof it was and speculation can be hurtful.

Driving while tired can be as dangerous as driving drunk

I know of a definite case of driving by suicide. The person in question was sent home from work for acting wierdly. He had always been a bit depressed is the best I can put it. But on the way home in his car he deliberately drove into a truck on a straight road. When the Guards went to his house all the doors in house inside were iron and locked and scrawled with messages about the devil.


He was single and his parents dead but when I went to the months mine mass his family knew nothing of this. It had all been cleaned up by the authorities. Just his work colleagues knew or at least it wasn't talked at the meal afterwards by his cousins. It was not recorded as suicide.

However you are right about shift workers - I used to be one once and the fellow driving me home fell asleep once and I had to wake him up!

Most single vehicle crashes though tend to be in the middle of the night and not early morning when shift workers end their shift. Or in many cases its drink driving at weekends mainly involving the young.


There has always been suicide in Ireland it just was not recorded.

They recently released a study showing which counties had the most suicide cases but I tend not to believe it as the centre for this is in Cork/Kerry and Cork/Kerry came out on top. Obviously it is just them co-operating more fully with the Centre than other counties.

Qualitymark

theGEM wrote: »

Just reading about the Priory Hall case today and how the banks are causing stress and people to take their own lives etc. But then I see Greece has the lowest suicide rate in the EU and their economy is worse than ours. I wonder what we're doing wrong in this country. Is it easy to blame the recession and the banks when the real problem is something else. Something that be fixed now. Any thoughts??

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/12/09/business/economy/suicideratesoecd.jpg

One thought: those figures are from 2006!

Here's the latest:

http://eurohealthnet.eu/organisation/rate-suicide-increased-40-greece

(slightly dodgy English): "The Greek Minister for Health - Andeas Loverdos - reported that suicides in the first 5 months of 2011 may have increased 40% compared to the same period in 2010. The report states that most of these suicides are connected to the financial crisis. According to the same report, the suicide helpline received last year 4 times more telephone calls than previous years most of which had to do with the financial crisis. The region of Athens is highest for suicides followed by Crete."

Knob Longman

NiallSparky wrote: »

You don't think it's got anything to do with the fact that reporting on suicide is proven to lead to an increased suicide rate?

I doubt it to be honest..Its hidden so people don't make the connection between the woeful economical situation created by our betters (politicians) and the pressure people are under which leads them to take their own life's..

Sleepy

I think there's a post-colonial aversion to taking responsibility for your own actions in this country. If modern republicans are anything to judge those of the past by (and in the past, they would have been a majority rather than a fringe group), every problem could be considered to have been caused by "de Brits".

Flash forward to our own time and you can pretty much substitute the banks and politicians for the British. Many homeowners don't want to admit that they played a large part in the creation of their own problems: whether that was exaggerating their earnings on their mortgage application, a failure to realise that their earning capacity could decrease (particularly if they were giving up educational opportunities to avail of those earnings), or simply were silly enough to agree with bubble-level property prices. Of course the banks irresponsible lending practices and government of the day's encouraging of the bubble and failure to regulate played major parts in our current problems, but it still takes two people to sign a mortgage agreement.

Even outside of the property market, you can see similar behaviour throughout Irish society: the "it's not my fault I'm fat, it's genetic / my (self diagnosed) overactive thyroid / just big bones" brigade; the legal system that regards intoxication as a mitigating rather than contributory factor to a crime; the women that regard violent or abusive outbursts as being excusable because it's "their time of the month"; the men who abandon their offspring because "she said she was on the pill / wouldn't go to England / she's a bitch" etc.

Choices have consequences and we need to teach our future generations to accept those consequences and not to feel too ashamed to simply admit to a failing and admit "mea culpa".

weldoninhio

Nodin wrote: »

A woman made a widow due to that very debt, on a property they have to pay for but can't live in.....yes, the humanity. Or lack of it.

Oh i must have missed the part where the bank forced the mortgage onto her and killed her husband.

clairefontaine

Sleepy wrote: »

I think there's a post-colonial aversion to taking responsibility for your own actions in this country. If modern republicans are anything to judge those of the past by (and in the past, they would have been a majority rather than a fringe group), every problem could be considered to have been caused by "de Brits".

Flash forward to our own time and you can pretty much substitute the banks and politicians for the British. Many homeowners don't want to admit that they played a large part in the creation of their own problems: whether that was exaggerating their earnings on their mortgage application, a failure to realise that their earning capacity could decrease (particularly if they were giving up educational opportunities to avail of those earnings), or simply were silly enough to agree with bubble-level property prices. Of course the banks irresponsible lending practices and government of the day's encouraging of the bubble and failure to regulate played major parts in our current problems, but it still takes two people to sign a mortgage agreement.

Even outside of the property market, you can see similar behaviour throughout Irish society: the "it's not my fault I'm fat, it's genetic / my (self diagnosed) overactive thyroid / just big bones" brigade; the legal system that regards intoxication as a mitigating rather than contributory factor to a crime; the women that regard violent or abusive outbursts as being excusable because it's "their time of the month"; the men who abandon their offspring because "she said she was on the pill / wouldn't go to England / she's a bitch" etc.

Choices have consequences and we need to teach our future generations to accept those consequences and not to feel too ashamed to simply admit to a failing and admit "mea culpa".

Yes that's true. But it's not the land of second chances either. Draconian divorce and bankruptcy laws. Very punitive culture.

Nodin

weldoninhio wrote: »

Oh i must have missed the part where the bank forced the mortgage onto her and killed her husband.

.....are you being purposely obtuse? She took out a mortgage on a property that - unbeknownst to her - was unsafe to live in.

Skid X

Jernal wrote: »

There's another side to this though. Many banks are essentially bullying when it comes to debt collecting. Bullying, no matter what form it takes, is psychologically toxic to a person's mental health. Then if you have somebody who's already vulnerable and expose them to bully you've got a very high risk situation.

I wouldn't try to condone certain actions by the banks. Some of their procedures and policies are out of order, and are putting severe stress on customers.

But this is not the way to regulate the bankers' activities. Imagine having poor mental health, receiving one of those letters and then getting the news that one of your customers had killed themselves? It could lead to a cycle of suicide.

Shout Dust

The weather seems to have some influence, I think the Scandinavian countries are high too?

weldoninhio

Nodin wrote: »

.....are you being purposely obtuse? She took out a mortgage on a property that - unbeknownst to her - was unsafe to live in.

OK, so why should the bank lose out on the money they loaned her in good faith??

Podge_irl

Nodin wrote: »

.....are you being purposely obtuse? She took out a mortgage on a property that - unbeknownst to her - was unsafe to live in.

Which, as harsh as it is, is not their problem. She is the one who signed the lease for the place, the bank just provided funding.

Nodin

weldoninhio wrote: »

OK, so why should the bank lose out on the money they loaned her in good faith??

......because the loan was taken on the basis of buying a property, which was sold under false pretences. Why should an individual who has been effectively conned have to continue to pay a bank for a worthless item they unknowingly bought?

Podge_IRL wrote:

Which, as harsh as it is, is not their problem. She is the one who signed the lease for the place, the bank just provided funding.

.....which is the kind of "I'm allright jack" nonsense that led to a lot of our problems in the first place.

Turtwig

Skid X wrote: »

I wouldn't try to condone certain actions by the banks. Some of their procedures and policies are out of order, and are putting severe stress on customers.

But this is not the way to regulate the bankers' activities. Imagine having poor mental health, receiving one of those letters and then getting the news that one of your customers had killed themselves? It could lead to a cycle of suicide.

Yeah, I see what you mean. Informing them a decision they made likely drove somebody over the edge is probably not the wisest thing to do.

Podge_irl

Nodin wrote: »

......because the loan was taken on the basis of buying a property, which was sold under false pretences. Why should an individual who has been effectively conned have to continue to pay a bank for a worthless item they unknowingly bought?

Because the bank didn't sell the property. Her problem is with the developer.

.....which is the kind of "I'm allright jack" nonsense that led to a lot of our problems in the first place.

No, complete abdication of personal responsibility is what led to a lot of our problems. The onus is on the person buying the property to ensure that it is up to standard, not the bank.

Nodin

Podge_irl wrote: »

Because the bank didn't sell the property. Her problem is with the developer..

.....again, the "allright jack" thing.

Podge_irl wrote: »

No, complete abdication of personal responsibility is what led to a lot of our problems. The onus is on the person buying the property to ensure that it is up to standard, not the bank.

All the residents of these properties had them sold as certified up to standard.

weldoninhio

Nodin wrote: »

......because the loan was taken on the basis of buying a property, which was sold under false pretences. Why should an individual who has been effectively conned have to continue to pay a bank for a worthless item they unknowingly bought?



.....which is the kind of "I'm allright jack" nonsense that led to a lot of our problems in the first place.

Which would be all well and good if the bank had sold her the property. But it didn't.

Qualitymark

weldoninhio wrote: »

OK, so why should the bank lose out on the money they loaned her in good faith??

Should the bank not take equal responsibility - after all, their surveyor passed the structure as safe and well built.

Podge_irl

Nodin wrote: »

All the residents of these properties had them sold as certified up to standard.

So her issue is with whoever certified the building...

If a bank gave you a loan that you invested badly (for whatever reason) you wouldn't expect them to let you off.

galwayrush

How did the couple get a mortgage for a substandard property?

It's next to impossible to get a mortgage or even a stage payment without the development being passed by a qualified and bonded engineer. If there's a structural problem, it's down to the engineer's insurance.
I can't understand how anyone could be liable if the bank or / and engineer ****ed up. Surely the liability is with both of them as the developer can simply go bust or can the banks simply change the rules to suit themselves as they go along.

PickledLime

Are people actually siding with the bank over this?

That sort of subservient mentality is precisely why this country is in ruins.

weldoninhio

Qualitymark wrote: »

Should the bank not take equal responsibility - after all, their surveyor passed the structure as safe and well built.

Customer went to bank for a loan, bank decided that looking at their accounts etc that they qualified for a loan. Customer used loan to buy apartment. Apartment not fit for purpose. Customer decides not to pay back loan. In what world is it fair that the bank loses its money.

galwayrush

weldoninhio wrote: »

Customer went to bank for a loan, bank decided that looking at their accounts etc that they qualified for a loan. Customer used loan to buy apartment. Apartment not fit for purpose. Customer decides not to pay back loan. In what world is it fair that the bank loses its money.

The Bank won't give a secured loan if the security is not up to standard. Even right of ways and boundaries have to be marked out exactly in accordance with planning permission and building regulations. Banks problem entirely if the engineer who passed it for compliance is inept. Please tell me how the buyers should be liable if the 'professionals' employed to make sure everything is in compliance fecks up, ?

galwayrush

Banks have lost many court cases over simple errors on the 'original' loan applications. Why on earth should they chase people for a monumental **** up like Priory Hall?

Nodin

Podge_irl wrote: »

So her issue is with whoever certified the building...

If a bank gave you a loan that you invested badly (for whatever reason) you wouldn't expect them to let you off.

But due to the complete balls of legislation, the self regulation that was brought in had no real penalties attached. I remember it being said at the time it would lead to problems in the long run and lo and behold.....


...an investment that involves risk usually makes that risk and its level entirely clear.

galwayrush wrote:

It's next to impossible to get a mortgage or even a stage payment without the
development being passed by a qualified and bonded engineer. If there's a
structural problem, it's down to the engineer's insurance.

....so some believed. Also mentioned was something about the architects, but I've never heard of anyone claiming off that either . However - and I'm open to correction on this - theres enough leeway in the regulations that very little inspection can be said to having been 'due diligence'.

Gummy Panda

Are people arguing banks should have a risk free investment?

Sleepy

At the time the couple signed the loan agreement, the only risk the bank faced was that the market would drop and the borrower go bankrupt.

Were the risk higher, the interest rate would have reflected that risk, for example the 10-20% we see on unsecured lending like personal loans or credit cards rather than the 3 - 7% they were charging on mortgages at the time.

Now, whilst personally, I'd like to see mortgage lending be non-recourse (i.e. hand the keys to the bank and they can't persue you for any shortcomings they face selling the asset) I don't think we can enforce this retrospectively.

donegal__road

weldoninhio wrote: »

A bank keeping a customer informed of arrears owed!! The humanity!!!

bit of good news at least....

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/376745290415366144

Phoebas

donegal__road wrote: »

bit of good news at least....

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/376745290415366144

That's pretty generous of the bank to be fair to them. They are taking a hit when there is no legal obligation on them to do so.

Obviously this could have been a bit of PR nightmare for them, so the decision may have been a simple cost / benefits call, but still a fairly generous decision from them.

Phoebas

Do mortgage protection policies generally pay out in the case of suicide?

Roger_007

Why do people automatically jump to conclusions when they hear of a suicide?
Nobody, not even those closest to them, ever really know why someone commits suicide. Usually it's a combination of factors, too complicated even for family and friends to fully understand. It is all too easy to forget that many suicides occurred when there was no recession,(and no internet for that matter).
Financial worries may be a factor, but if it was the only factor, there would be tens of thousands committing suicide. The loss of a home would be a traumatic event in someone's life but it is not the most traumatic thing that can happen. Premature death of a family member is infinitely more traumatic but it does not cause surviving family members to commit suicide.
Blaming the recession or social media is just simplistic nonsense.

PickledLime

Roger_007 wrote: »

Why do people automatically jump to conclusions when they hear of a suicide?
Nobody, not even those closest to them, ever really know why someone commits suicide. Usually it's a combination of factors, too complicated even for family and friends to fully understand. It is all too easy to forget that many suicides occurred when there was no recession,(and no internet for that matter).
Financial worries may be a factor, but if it was the only factor, there would be tens of thousands committing suicide. The loss of a home would be a traumatic event in someone's life but it is not the most traumatic thing that can happen. Premature death of a family member is infinitely more traumatic but it does not cause surviving family members to commit suicide.
Blaming the recession or social media is just simplistic nonsense.

I'll wade in here as it's close to the bone; saying "Premature death of a family member is infinitely more traumatic but it does not cause surviving family members to commit suicide" is much the same as blaming social media or the recession; it's a far too simplistic catch all that may or may not apply to you.

Qualitymark

weldoninhio wrote: »

Customer went to bank for a loan, bank decided that looking at their accounts etc that they qualified for a loan. Customer used loan to buy apartment. Apartment not fit for purpose. Customer decides not to pay back loan. In what world is it fair that the bank loses its money.

Customer goes to the bicycle shop and buys a bicycle. Customer goes out, cycles down the road and the bicycle falls to pieces.

The bicycle shop is responsible, because it's sold unwarrantable goods.

If a bank offered a loan for the bike, but only on condition that it could send out its own bicycle mechanic to test the bike first, I'd personally see a certain co-responsibility on its part. That bicycle mechanic, acting as the bank's agent, told the customer that he was safe to buy the bike and could be granted a loan to do so, and the bike turned out to be as bent as a clatter of spanners.

maria_81

I presume the reason people are blaming the recession is because there has been an increase in suicide over the last few years, which coincides with the recession.

I doubt there's any one reason but being under financial stress definitely contributes.

We sit fairly high on the international suicide rates table (#36) so I think it's fair to say we have a problem. But I'd say we have a problem with mental health in general, with a high suicide rate being the most obvious symptom. Alcohol abuse probably contributes to a lot of problems as well as a culture of not being able o talk about certain things ( though that is likely changing)

KyussBishop

Sleepy wrote: »

I think there's a post-colonial aversion to taking responsibility for your own actions in this country. If modern republicans are anything to judge those of the past by (and in the past, they would have been a majority rather than a fringe group), every problem could be considered to have been caused by "de Brits".

Flash forward to our own time and you can pretty much substitute the banks and politicians for the British. Many homeowners don't want to admit that they played a large part in the creation of their own problems: whether that was exaggerating their earnings on their mortgage application, a failure to realise that their earning capacity could decrease (particularly if they were giving up educational opportunities to avail of those earnings), or simply were silly enough to agree with bubble-level property prices. Of course the banks irresponsible lending practices and government of the day's encouraging of the bubble and failure to regulate played major parts in our current problems, but it still takes two people to sign a mortgage agreement.

Even outside of the property market, you can see similar behaviour throughout Irish society: the "it's not my fault I'm fat, it's genetic / my (self diagnosed) overactive thyroid / just big bones" brigade; the legal system that regards intoxication as a mitigating rather than contributory factor to a crime; the women that regard violent or abusive outbursts as being excusable because it's "their time of the month"; the men who abandon their offspring because "she said she was on the pill / wouldn't go to England / she's a bitch" etc.

Choices have consequences and we need to teach our future generations to accept those consequences and not to feel too ashamed to simply admit to a failing and admit "mea culpa".

Except this problem is caused by finance/banks/government, through enormous economic mismanagement; the rest "takes two people to sign a mortgage agreement" is just whataboutery used to try and justify victim blaming.

No, people do not have a choice on what they pay on houses, when the entire market is overinflating and they don't want to put their entire lives on hold to wait for a downturn (which, considering the majority of all economists in the world didn't see it coming, the population can hardly be expected to), and when the rental market doesn't match European standards, and isn't a viable alternative for many people (especially those wanting to start families).

The Irish don't have a problem with personal responsibility (the entire topic of the thread, can be interpreted as the Irish being masochistically obedient/accepting, of being overburdened by others in financial responsibility), we have a problem with holding powerful people to account, to imposing responsibility onto them when they damage the economy/society.

All this talk of 'personal responsibility' is just an attempt at distraction/whataboutery from the real issues of corruption, which can be interpreted as: "don't look at the bankers/financiers/politicans responsible for the crisis, look to yourselves instead and stop complaining".
You portray it as others deferring responsibility onto politicians etc., when it is exactly you who are deferring responsibility from politicians/bankers onto the people.


People defending the banks, also don't seem to realize that the banks don't lend money from savings, the money they have loaned out (and which has gone into developers pockets) is actually created out of nothing, along with an equal amount of corresponding debt.

Sleepy

KyussBishop wrote: »

Except this problem is caused by finance/banks/government, through enormous economic mismanagement; the rest "takes two people to sign a mortgage agreement" is just whataboutery used to try and justify victim blaming.

We'll never agree on this. For a start, I don't see someone as a "victim" when they suffer the consequences of their own actions.

You can point at your dissatisfaction with the failings of our rental market in comparison to those elsewhere in the world, the high levels of financial illiteracy, the incompetence (and/or corruption) of the politicians, planners, regulators all you like (and I'll agree with you on most of it tbh) but it doesn't waive people's responsibility to accept the consequences of their own poor decisions.

We all make choices and follow them through with actions. Sometimes those have fantastic consequences (we meet the love of our life, have a child, get the job we always wanted, set ourselves on the path to whatever we define as "success" etc.) other times they don't work out so well for us (we vote for someone who doesn't represent our best interests, we find the car we've just bought is a lemon, we sell the shares a week before they skyrocket in value, we don't talk to the pretty girl in the bar, we forego a chance to educate ourselves further, etc.)

Part of being a grown up is accepting responsibility for your actions and it seems to me, a lesson that our parents failed to pass on to an awful lot of us...

clairefontaine

Sleepy wrote: »

We'll never agree on this. For a start, I don't see someone as a "victim" when they suffer the consequences of their own actions.

You can point at your dissatisfaction with the failings of our rental market in comparison to those elsewhere in the world, the high levels of financial illiteracy, the incompetence (and/or corruption) of the politicians, planners, regulators all you like (and I'll agree with you on most of it tbh) but it doesn't waive people's responsibility to accept the consequences of their own poor decisions.

We all make choices and follow them through with actions. Sometimes those have fantastic consequences (we meet the love of our life, have a child, get the job we always wanted, set ourselves on the path to whatever we define as "success" etc.) other times they don't work out so well for us (we vote for someone who doesn't represent our best interests, we find the car we've just bought is a lemon, we sell the shares a week before they skyrocket in value, we don't talk to the pretty girl in the bar, we forego a chance to educate ourselves further, etc.)

Part of being a grown up is accepting responsibility for your actions and it seems to me, a lesson that our parents failed to pass on to an awful lot of us...

Yes but they are not solely the consequences of ones own actions, but also of others actions.

Part of being a grown up is standing up for yourself and transform your victimisation into positive action, not just saying it was all my fault or all their fault, but being wise enough to gauge what you can do about it and accept what you can't. And then to further examine what you tolerate, and how your tolerance may enable further fraud and exploitation.

Nodin

Sleepy wrote: »

We'll never agree on (............)ves further, etc.)

Part of being a grown up is accepting responsibility for your actions and it seems to me, a lesson that our parents failed to pass on to an awful lot of us...

But that hardly applies to a situation where somebody has been deceived.