To Cut or Not To Cut...That is the Question, whether it's Nobler....

A_Sober_Paddy

Hey all,

Firstly sorry for a long post, but I'm going to try and get as many answers and advice as possible:D

Background:

Stats:
Bodyweight: 80kg
Body Fat %: N/A(Getting it done next week)
Age: 25
Height: 5ft 11"

I've been lifting on and off for for just around 2 years, in this time I've come down for circa 98kg to 73kg, but after taking up a full time position in work I put back a few more Kg's.

Currently 80kg, now I'm not overly unhappy with the weight to be honest. For the last 8 weeks I've been doing Stronglifts 5x5(Linky) Since starting the program I've made some genuine progress, A hell of a lot more than I'd with previous programmes...

Before starting the program I set myself goals on each lift, I got the goal weight from this http://www.strstd.com/
Lifts
Lifts|Starting Weight|Current Weight|Goal Weight
Squat|60|112.5|100
Bench|40|65|75
Barbell Rows|35|62.5|75
Overhead Press|30|52.5|50
Deadlifts|80|115|120


I've had some issues with technique at times which is why some of my lifts are as progressed as much as others and I've had to drop weight at times in order to improve technique...

Overall happy with the training side as things stand, I do feel that after the 12 weeks I'll still be lagging behind on the bench press...

So I'm in a dilemma as what to do next after...

To Cut or Not To Cut...That is the Question????

My overall goal is to get my bodyfat down 10%(well six pack level), but is there an optimum time of the year to start on a cut?

If I decide to go on a cut, there are a number of questions I do have...

Macro's & Supplements

From the reading I've done, to lose weight you need to work off a calorie deficit, but when looking to get cut your macro's become very important too in order to maintain muscle mass...

Just from a number of different sources, it seems to recommend macros in the ranges of:

Protein: 40%-50%
Fat: 30%-40%
Carbs: 20%-30%

Obviously, for the fats and Carbs good sources are very important, loads of sugar isn't going to do you much good same goes for the majority of your fats being made up of trans fats...Needs to be good mix of Saturated, Mono/poly unsaturated...

With regards to supplements, things like caffeine and BCAA will be needed on a cut, what amount of BCAA's would be nedded on a daily basis, 10g, 15g, 30g?

Also would you count 1g of BCAA's as 1g of protein in your macro's? Similar question goes for Fibre, does Fibre actually count towards total calorie intake?

Training On a Cut

What sort of training would be best on a cut...Is there any routines out there that would be best aimed for people on a cut?

I've looked a number of different programs with regards to improving individual lifts but can't seem to find too many programs other than stronglifts that target total body...

If A Cut is not the Answer

Where would i be best to go after my 12 week cycle on stronglifts? I know if my bench hasn't reached target there are number of programs like Smolov Jr which is a 3 week marathon that should increase my benching...But I'd prefer to get other muscle groups worked to, so I'd like to run it in line with something else...if possible...

Cheers in advance for your help and advice and sorry for all the questions?

thegreatiam

are you stalling on those weights?
If you're not stalling then I would, personally, do another round of 5x5 until I reach weights that I realistically cannot lift any more. Then I would see where my numbers are at and decide if I wish to progress or cut.

I wouldn't really fixate on your current target goals as absolutes. I would first try to find my actual potential, meet it, destroy it and then make a decision on progression.

If your not stalling at those weights then you are nowhere near your current potential.

A_Sober_Paddy

thegreatiam wrote: »

are you stalling on those weights?
If you're not stalling then I would, personally, do another round of 5x5 until I reach weights that I realistically cannot lift any more. Then I would see where my numbers are at and decide if I wish to progress or cut.

I wouldn't really fixate on your current target goals as absolutes. I would first try to find my actual potential, meet it, destroy it and then make a decision on progression.

If your not stalling at those weights then you are nowhere near your current potential.

I can feel myself stalling on the Deadlift, and the Overhead Press & Bench Press aren't too far behind I think, but I've still 4 weeks to run on the current cycle...

Sangre

I think your bodyfat % will influence this decision a lot. Let us know what the results are.

Brian?

I think you're over thinking it.

Don't worry about bulking and cutting, those are extreme terms. Get your body fat measured regularly, pick a threshold you don't want that to got above. Let's say 17%.

If your BF%> 17%

then drop your kcals 500 below maintenance until you get below 17%

else keep kcals 500 above maintenance

Repeat.

Concentrate on getting stronger.

A_Sober_Paddy

Sangre wrote: »

I think your bodyfat % will influence this decision a lot. Let us know what the results are.

Yeah that's pretty much I reckoning, tried to book it for this week but couldn't get it until next week...but I could estimate my bf% from numerous online tools, would put it somewhere in the range of 14-16%, but a more accurate measurement is certainly needed

A_Sober_Paddy

Brian? wrote: »

I think you're over thinking it.

Don't worry about bulking and cutting, those are extreme terms. Get your body fat measured regularly, pick a threshold you don't want that to got above. Let's say 17%.

If your BF%> 17%

then drop your kcals 500 below maintenance until you get below 17%

else keep kcals 500 above maintenance

Repeat.

Concentrate on getting stronger.

Yes I do understand, but running a weights cycle on a calorie deficit can be quiet difficult and with work too...also trying to do so while working towards building strength

Brian?

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Yes I do understand, but running a weights cycle on a calorie deficit can be quiet difficult and with work too...also trying to do so while working towards building strength

It will be difficult, but not that difficult. You will progress slower while running a deficit, but you'll still progress. Factor that in mentally, then get on with it.

When do you decide when to add more weight now? Is it a scheduled thing or done by hitting a goal and then adding weight?

A_Sober_Paddy

Brian? wrote: »

It will be difficult, but not that difficult. You will progress slower while running a deficit, but you'll still progress. Factor that in mentally, then get on with it.

When do you decide when to add more weight now? Is it a scheduled thing or done by hitting a goal and then adding weight?

Once I hit the weight for 5 sets of 5 reps, I increase by 2.5kg and aim for the same progress again...the full program is in a link in my op

Brian?

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Once I hit the weight for 5 sets of 5 reps, I increase by 2.5kg and aim for the same progress again...the full program is in a link in my op

That makes it very simple. When you're running a kcal deficit, expect it to take a little longer to add weight. If you find you regress, i.e. you miss reps you'd hit previously then you've probably gone too low on your kcals.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Try to keep it as simple as possible or you'll just wreck your own head.

JJayoo

Unless your current bodyfat level is really bothering you then I would do a clean bulk. You said that your making progress so why feck that up.

dor843088

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Hey all,

Firstly sorry for a long post, but I'm going to try and get as many answers and advice as possible:D

Background:

Stats:
Bodyweight: 80kg
Body Fat %: N/A(Getting it done next week)
Age: 25
Height: 5ft 11"

I've been lifting on and off for for just around 2 years, in this time I've come down for circa 98kg to 73kg, but after taking up a full time position in work I put back a few more Kg's.

Currently 80kg, now I'm not overly unhappy with the weight to be honest. For the last 8 weeks I've been doing Stronglifts 5x5(Linky) Since starting the program I've made some genuine progress, A hell of a lot more than I'd with previous programmes...

Before starting the program I set myself goals on each lift, I got the goal weight from this http://www.strstd.com/
Lifts
Lifts|Starting Weight|Current Weight|Goal Weight
Squat|60|112.5|100
Bench|40|65|75
Barbell Rows|35|62.5|75
Overhead Press|30|52.5|50
Deadlifts|80|115|120


I've had some issues with technique at times which is why some of my lifts are as progressed as much as others and I've had to drop weight at times in order to improve technique...

Overall happy with the training side as things stand, I do feel that after the 12 weeks I'll still be lagging behind on the bench press...

So I'm in a dilemma as what to do next after...

To Cut or Not To Cut...That is the Question????

My overall goal is to get my bodyfat down 10%(well six pack level), but is there an optimum time of the year to start on a cut?

If I decide to go on a cut, there are a number of questions I do have...

Macro's & Supplements

From the reading I've done, to lose weight you need to work off a calorie deficit, but when looking to get cut your macro's become very important too in order to maintain muscle mass...

Just from a number of different sources, it seems to recommend macros in the ranges of:

Protein: 40%-50%
Fat: 30%-40%
Carbs: 20%-30%

Obviously, for the fats and Carbs good sources are very important, loads of sugar isn't going to do you much good same goes for the majority of your fats being made up of trans fats...Needs to be good mix of Saturated, Mono/poly unsaturated...

With regards to supplements, things like caffeine and BCAA will be needed on a cut, what amount of BCAA's would be nedded on a daily basis, 10g, 15g, 30g?

Also would you count 1g of BCAA's as 1g of protein in your macro's? Similar question goes for Fibre, does Fibre actually count towards total calorie intake?

Training On a Cut

What sort of training would be best on a cut...Is there any routines out there that would be best aimed for people on a cut?

I've looked a number of different programs with regards to improving individual lifts but can't seem to find too many programs other than stronglifts that target total body...

If A Cut is not the Answer

Where would i be best to go after my 12 week cycle on stronglifts? I know if my bench hasn't reached target there are number of programs like Smolov Jr which is a 3 week marathon that should increase my benching...But I'd prefer to get other muscle groups worked to, so I'd like to run it in line with something else...if possible...

Cheers in advance for your help and advice and sorry for all the questions?

If I were you I would keep building strength for another few months or you wont be happy when you cut down . Put100% into every session and know that you only have a few months to build then its time to cut. Start your cut after christmas sometime cut for a few months and be ready for summer. Getting below 10% is no joke and mentally and physically exhausting.

Yes count bcaas as protein
Yes count fibre get about 30-40g

I would start your macros like this 225p 60f the rest in carbs. Adjust your carbs and cardio to create desired weight gain/ loss . you may need to increase fats when bulking but be careful in going much lower than that with fat intake while cutting for health reasons. Protein remains the same throughout. Weight training you should hit your muscles at least twice weekly and your priority should only be to maintain strength not increase it.Risky lifting should be kept to a minimum while cutting .

This is just my advice others may do it differently but it will work.

A_Sober_Paddy

To be honest I'm not overly happy with with my belly or spare tyre its pretty much were all my bodyfat seems to be stored...

As said earlier, my bodyfat % is a very important figure to determine where to go next...I thought I'd just open this thread in order to get a head start on gathering information and opinions...

I do understand that getting BF% down to 10% is no joke and I'd like to think I'm up to it:cool:

dor843088

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

To be honest I'm not overly happy with with my belly or spare tyre its pretty much were all my bodyfat seems to be stored...

As said earlier, my bodyfat % is a very important figure to determine where to go next...I thought I'd just open this thread in order to get a head start on gathering information and opinions...

I do understand that getting BF% down to 10% is no joke and I'd like to think I'm up to it:cool:

If your 15% or 25% bodyfat does it matter ? You said your not happy with your current state .

A_Sober_Paddy

dor843088 wrote: »

If your 15% or 25% bodyfat does it matter ? You said your not happy with your current state .

Well to be honest if my bodyfat was above 16% i'd be very unhappy, anything under 16% would be easier(faster) to cut the weight down...I know its all in my head...

Just a couple of follow up questions re clean bulk...

It was my understanding that the human body can only gain 5-6kg max of muscle in a 12 month period...That of course depending a whole lot of different factors...

So if I went on a clean bulk of 12 weeks, by increasing my calorie intake by 500 a day...after 12 weeks I'd have gained 12lbs(5.44kg), of that bulk there is going to be fat too...which would add more kg's to lose on a cut...

Mellor

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Well to be honest if my bodyfat was above 16% i'd be very unhappy, anything under 16% would be easier(faster) to cut the weight down...I know its all in my head...

You are looking at this wrong imo. Obviously a lower start point will mean you'll get to 10% sooner.
But in terms of appearance, the higher your bf% starts the faster you will lose fat in terms of kg.

It was my understanding that the human body can only gain 5-6kg max of muscle in a 12 month period...That of course depending a whole lot of different factors...

Everyone is different, so much so that a theoretical max is irrelevant for you right now.

So if I went on a clean bulk of 12 weeks, by increasing my calorie intake by 500 a day...after 12 weeks I'd have gained 12lbs(5.44kg), of that bulk there is going to be fat too...which would add more kg's to lose on a cut...

You are making a massive assumption here, and its completely wrong. I know how you worked it out too, and that's your mistake.

3500 cals per lb applies to fat loss. You are lutetally comsuming the calories in tbe fat.
Muscle gain is a whole other process. And much more energy intensive I would guess.

Hanley

If you've a belly/spare tyre you're almost certainly 18-20%+

A_Sober_Paddy

Hanley wrote: »

If you've a belly/spare tyre you're almost certainly 18-20%+

I'm probably over selling my belly to be honest, if its not against the rules, I can post up a picture here this evening once I've finished work.

Also measured myself with a mates caliber's came in at 15.7%...

LuckyLloyd

What do you want to do?

A_Sober_Paddy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What do you want to do?

Idealy, I'd like to be strong 75kg, with 8-10%, I don't expect it to me easy...

Now I do understand that being at 75kg with body fat that low might be very wirery looking, so if that was the case I'd be willing to go heavier

LuckyLloyd

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Idealy, I'd like to be strong 75kg, with 8-10%, I don't expect it to me easy...

Now I do understand that being at 75kg with body fat that low might be very wirery looking, so if that was the case I'd be willing to go heavier

Eh, let me try again. Right now, would you prefer to either:

- focus on gaining strength;
- focus on losing bodyfat;

?

A_Sober_Paddy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Eh, let me try again. Right now, would you prefer to either:

- focus on gaining strength;
- focus on losing bodyfat;

?

Gaining strength would be easier with regards the diet(compared to losing fat), but as things stand I'm starting to see myself plateauing on some of my current lifts, but still progressing on others but the progress is slowing

LuckyLloyd

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Gaining strength would be easier with regards the diet(compared to losing fat), but as things stand I'm starting to see myself plateauing on some of my current lifts, but still progressing on others but the progress is slowing

Well, sure - you're going to lose the ability to progress in a linear fashion after a certain period of time. But in that case the question is purely program based assuming you are eating a small but clean caloric surplus and getting plenty of sleep.

The point I'm making here is that the key question here is what YOU would prefer to do or focus on. If losing bodyfat is really the thing you're most concerned about right now advice to the contrary is a waste of time. You need to believe in what you're doing and it needs to allign with your goals. Otherwise you will probably fail to stick with it and make progress.

So choose what you are most concerned with achieving between now and Christmas (increased strength or getting down to a lower bodyfat %) and then you can focus on what you need to change to make it happen.

Good luck.

Mellor

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Idealy, I'd like to be strong 75kg, with 8-10%, I don't expect it to me easy...

Now I do understand that being at 75kg with body fat that low might be very wirery looking, so if that was the case I'd be willing to go heavier

I don't think you'd be wirey at 75kg and 10% tbh. Should have decent definition at that point.
If that's your goal weight, then its an easy decision to cut imo.

Lets assume that your BF% of 15.6% @ 80kg was accurate enough, that's 67.5kg lean mass. Rather conveniently, 10% @ 75kg is 67.5kg lean mass also.
If you drop 5kg of fat, and only fat, you'd reach your goal.
In reality, it doesn't may not work like that, you may loss some muscle, but you might not. You might even increase lean mass a little bit with consistent training and diet.

Regardless, if you drop to 75kg right now, then you'll be pretty close to your goal and from that point you can adjust your training to finish, or maybe adjust goal based on results.

weight bf% lean mass fat mass
80kg 15.6% 67.5 12.5
75kg 10.0% 67.5 7.5

Alf Veedersane

Mellor wrote: »

I don't think you'd be wirey at 75kg and 10% tbh. Should have decent definition at that point.
If that's your goal weight, then its an easy decision to cut imo.

Lets assume that your BF% of 15.6% @ 80kg was accurate enough, that's 67.5kg lean mass. Rather conveniently, 10% @ 75kg is 67.5kg lean mass also.
If you drop 5kg of fat, and only fat, you'd reach your goal.
In reality, it doesn't may not work like that, you may loss some muscle, but you might not. You might even increase lean mass a little bit with consistent training and diet.

Regardless, if you drop to 75kg right now, then you'll be pretty close to your goal and from that point you can adjust your training to finish, or maybe adjust goal based on results.

weight bf% lean mass fat mass
80kg 15.6% 67.5 12.5
75kg 10.0% 67.5 7.5

Maths means gainz!

A_Sober_Paddy

Mellor wrote: »

I don't think you'd be wirey at 75kg and 10% tbh. Should have decent definition at that point.
If that's your goal weight, then its an easy decision to cut imo.

Lets assume that your BF% of 15.6% @ 80kg was accurate enough, that's 67.5kg lean mass. Rather conveniently, 10% @ 75kg is 67.5kg lean mass also.
If you drop 5kg of fat, and only fat, you'd reach your goal.
In reality, it doesn't may not work like that, you may loss some muscle, but you might not. You might even increase lean mass a little bit with consistent training and diet.

Regardless, if you drop to 75kg right now, then you'll be pretty close to your goal and from that point you can adjust your training to finish, or maybe adjust goal based on results.

weight bf% lean mass fat mass
80kg 15.6% 67.5 12.5
75kg 10.0% 67.5 7.5

Cheers, I love when math works out so neat and tidy ha ha...

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well, sure - you're going to lose the ability to progress in a linear fashion after a certain period of time. But in that case the question is purely program based assuming you are eating a small but clean caloric surplus and getting plenty of sleep.

The point I'm making here is that the key question here is what YOU would prefer to do or focus on. If losing bodyfat is really the thing you're most concerned about right now advice to the contrary is a waste of time. You need to believe in what you're doing and it needs to allign with your goals. Otherwise you will probably fail to stick with it and make progress.

So choose what you are most concerned with achieving between now and Christmas (increased strength or getting down to a lower bodyfat %) and then you can focus on what you need to change to make it happen.

Good luck.

With regards to linear progression, or the slowing down of it...What sort of program is used in order to progress when linear progression halts, what sort of structure is needed within the program to progress?

Also thanks to all with regards to feedback and advice

LuckyLloyd

Look into things like The Texas Method or 5 / 3 / 1.