New enrollment rules for schools

Moonbeam

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/new-school-entry-rules-will-ban-application-fees-waiting-lists-and-interviews-1.1512675

"Schools will no longer be allowed to charge application fees, operate waiting lists or interview parents or children for school places under new legislation to control admissions policies."

I am not sure how it will work but it has to be fairer then having to put their names down at birth.

We did not get our local Gaelscoil or the next one and got one a 20 minute drive away in a different county.

Toto Wolfcastle

I like that places will be allocated using a lottery once places are filled using the criteria. I worked in a school where parents would queue all night to hand in their application on the day the school started accepting them. The time they handed it in would be written on the application and would be used if spaces were available after the criteria list was exhausted. Crazy stuff.

Sniipe

I'm keeping a close eye on this. I've a 2 year old girl and a newborn. I'm really unsure how the system works currently. With my first child I applied to two gaelscoil. Apparently I won't know until much closer to the time if she gets into either of them. One of the schools we did have a meeting with the principal and we should have another perhaps closer to the time of admission. It would be best if we knew now which school she would get into. The nearest school isn't a gaelscoil.

So is this legislation in place as and from today? What will it mean for me?

huskerdu

Sniipe wrote: »

I'm keeping a close eye on this. I've a 2 year old girl and a newborn. I'm really unsure how the system works currently. With my first child I applied to two gaelscoil. Apparently I won't know until much closer to the time if she gets into either of them. One of the schools we did have a meeting with the principal and we should have another perhaps closer to the time of admission. It would be best if we knew now which school she would get into. The nearest school isn't a gaelscoil.

So is this legislation in place as and from today? What will it mean for me?

The legislation is not in place and wont be for a number of months, possibly more.

All that has happened is that the Minister has published draft legislation. This has be to debated by the Dail and the committees and voted on by the Dail and Seanad before it become law. These debates may change the draft legislation.

So it means nothing for you for the moment.

One of the keys points of the draft legislation is that schools will not operate waiting lists for years, so it will not mean that you know where your daughter is going to school years in advance.

byhookorbycrook

It's not legislation yet though.

"Schools that can show they have existing waiting lists will be given a derogation so that these lists can be cleared over a number of years. However, no new waiting lists can be applied should the legislation come into force."



http://www.education.ie/en/The-Education-System/Legislation/Draft-General-Scheme-of-an-Education-Admission-to-Schools-Bill-2013.PDF
"Designation (of school)can be at the discretion of the NCSE or at the request of the parents of a child with special educational needs where, for reasons related to that child’s special educational needs, no school place can be found. In making a designation the NCSE shall have regard to the educational needs of the child concerned, the wishes of the child's parents and the capacity of the school to accommodate the child and to meet his or her educational needs, including that capacity when the school has such additional resources as the Council recommends. Such resource recommendation must be made in accordance with Ministerial policy in relation to the education of children with special educational needs."

So a school can sill claim not be best placed to accept a child with SEN and wriggle out of it, as some schools already
do. Easy have a high ranking in the "School League" tables, if you only take children without dyslexia/dyspraxia and other SEN that might impinge on exam performance.

dharma200

I think schools taking deposits is a practise that should be banned... It is clearly discriminatory, I know some parents who had to find four hundred quid, just in deposits, to try to get their child into a school... How can single parents, unemployed etc etc find that kind of money to outlay for a 'maybe' place in an already overcrowded school.... Should be completely eradicated.

byhookorbycrook

The deposits thing was to stop parents putting kids down for every school and then not turning up and maybe not even taking the time to let the school know.

One way around that would be to allocate every school place in an area by lottery and that parents do not apply to individual schools but am not a fan of that idea.

Orion

This bill will most likelybe well diluted before or if it becomes enacted. There is good and bad in it. The practice of deposits and children of past pupils should be stopped. However banning a siblings policy I don't agree with. I've twins so it doesn't impact me but I've friends with 2,3 or 4 kids and without a sibling policy they could potentially have to drop their kids off at different schools every day. Then waiting lists and lotteries. How would it tie in in my town where I would only have one option for primary school - ET - as I would never send my kids to a catholic primary school. ET have no selection criteria at all. It would make more sense to allow a waiting list but reserve a proportion of places for new migrants to the area. That would give a fairer chance to both people who've lived and contributed in the community as well as people who move there more recently. Or of course the radical option and remove all religious patronage of primary schools completely and that is not an issue.

The bill also does not address restrictive criteria such as geographical which divides towns like Leixlip at secondary level and is proposed, very contentiously, in Maynooth. This does result in people buying houses in estates to get their kids into the 'good' school in an area thus becoming a self fulfilling prophecy.

I understand where Quinn is coming from in this but he needs to sit back and think about it some more.

Moonbeam

I think the deposits thing is brilliant it stops people taking places then backing out at the last minute or not turning up.
We purposely bought our house less then 10 minutes from our chosen school,our choose school also had no selection criteria just 1st come 1st served which on some level is fair but not for those that move house with a 12 month old.
Day 2 of the school commute and I survived!!

ShamoBuc

It is true that there needs to be a shake up in admissions policy but I do not like the 'new' version in it's current format. Names only to be taken on Oct 1 for the following September.....can you imagine the queues outside schools?

huskerdu

ShamoBuc wrote: »

It is true that there needs to be a shake up in admissions policy but I do not like the 'new' version in it's current format. Names only to be taken on Oct 1 for the following September.....can you imagine the queues outside schools?

I disagree that there will be queues, if it is done sensibly. If order of application does not matter, and applications have to in by a certain date, then the school says that applications are accepted between Sept 1 and Oct 1, or between Oct 1 and Nov 1, and there is no advantage to when your application is received and all schools are the same, then there is no queuing.

ShamoBuc

huskerdu wrote: »

I disagree that there will be queues, if it is done sensibly. If order of application does not matter, and applications have to in by a certain date, then the school says that applications are accepted between Sept 1 and Oct 1, or between Oct 1 and Nov 1, and there is no advantage to when your application is received and all schools are the same, then there is no queuing.

That's a big if. Also, if somebody moved into a new area after November 1, would that mean that they would not be eligible to start the following September as their application would be too late?
Will people be allowed to 'accept' places in a number of schools or will there be a database. Some secondary schools use a 'deposit' scheme and if you take up the place offered the monies go towards paying the various costs for the year ( costs that are to be paid every year). If you accept the place but don't take it, you lose your deposit. Not really sure if the costs are that high but I can see the reasoning behind it.


I wonder will he actually take on board ideas put foward by Patrons/gaelscoileanna etc or will he push through whatever he wants.

While I agree some changes are needed, I have a bad feeling that he will go too far with his ideas.

huskerdu

I don't know if it will all be done sensibly, and I am not naive, I don't expect it to be perfect and I am sure the first few years will be a mess, but you are coming up with a number of negative suggestions that don't make sense.

The legislation will outlaw date of application giving you priority for entry, so I really don't see a situation where the application have to go in on EXACTLY Oct 1st and no other date.

Also, nowhere has it been suggested that a late entry be refused, if there are places available.

If a school has allocated all its places and someone applies in the last few months before school starts, what are the school expected to do? Any system, no matter how fair, could not cope with having to offer a place in the school of choice for a very late application which is what you are suggesting. A very later application will have to take whatever place is available in under subscribed schools, just like most places.

Some of the proposals make sense. Some will depend on how they are implemented, I hope that it is sensible and an improvement on the current system.

ShamoBuc

huskerdu wrote: »

I don't know if it will all be done sensibly, and I am not naive, I don't expect it to be perfect and I am sure the first few years will be a mess, but you are coming up with a number of negative suggestions that don't make sense.

So it might not be all done sensibly - surely it should be but probably won't, not a good sign from the outset and you are sure the first few years will be a mess - a comforting thought for the parents of the 1000's of children starting school during those years at both primary and secondary level that will be caught up in that mess - something to look forward to for them.

Any changes should aid the process not turn it into a mess for a few years - I don't think that would be acceptable.

Are they simply trying to eradicate all the red tape AND expense of section 29's rather than come up with a fairer more user friendly enrolement policy that might actually aid parents and BOM's?

I guess time will tell.

mohawk

Orion wrote: »

This bill will most likelybe well diluted before or if it becomes enacted. There is good and bad in it. The practice of deposits and children of past pupils should be stopped. However banning a siblings policy I don't agree with. I've twins so it doesn't impact me but I've friends with 2,3 or 4 kids and without a sibling policy they could potentially have to drop their kids off at different schools every day. Then waiting lists and lotteries. How would it tie in in my town where I would only have one option for primary school - ET - as I would never send my kids to a catholic primary school. ET have no selection criteria at all.

From listening to Quinn on the radio it sounds like the sibling policy won't be gotten rid of as its not fair on parents.

I would love to see an end to the practice of people putting names down for every school in the area the day the child is born. Peoples lives can change dramatically in 5 years and can find the school they wanted their child to go to is no longer practical.
I really think the waiting list thing has parents in a panic. It just becomes a vicious cycle.

ShamoBuc

mohawk wrote: »

From listening to Quinn on the radio it sounds like the sibling policy won't be gotten rid of as its not fair on parents.

I would love to see an end to the practice of people putting names down for every school in the area the day the child is born. Peoples lives can change dramatically in 5 years and can find the school they wanted their child to go to is no longer practical.
I really think the waiting list thing has parents in a panic. It just becomes a vicious cycle.

Yeah, the sibling policy is important and I think it makes good common sense to keep it.
What if you want to send your child to a school not in your locality? Would you have the option - aren't there problems with that in pilot programme in Limerick?
If your closest Gaelscoil is in a different locality are you automatically put behind everyone that lives closer to it? Same for ET etc

byhookorbycrook

Pilot school project in Limerick not going so well. One woman had a boy at one side of the city, the girl on the other.

ShamoBuc

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Pilot school project in Limerick not going so well. One woman had a boy at one side of the city, the girl on the other.

Heard something similar but wasn't sure - that would be a total nightmare.

echo beach

Quite simply the Minister is trying to solve the wrong problem. Admission policies are not the disease they are a symptom of the lack of places. If there were enough places the schools could take all the children who wanted to attend.

The government know how many children are born every year and know they will need school places 4-5 yrs later and have a good idea where those places should be.
As the number of births increased they cut the number of teachers so it is inevitable that schools have to limit their intake some way. Instead of trying to find the best way to do this the Minister should be increasing the places available. There are plenty of good teachers emigrating who could teach our children.
The panic is caused by the shortage. Take away the shortage and nobody has any reason to panic.

Moonbeam

it depends our area has enough school places but unfortunately not in the 2 schools there is a massive demand for so they see no need for increased capacity,which is of course an additional issue.

BookwormC

Is there any update on the new legislation ( education Bill 2013 ) being drafted ?

diveout

echo beach wrote: »

Quite simply the Minister is trying to solve the wrong problem. Admission policies are not the disease they are a symptom of the lack of places. If there were enough places the schools could take all the children who wanted to attend.

The government know how many children are born every year and know they will need school places 4-5 yrs later and have a good idea where those places should be.
As the number of births increased they cut the number of teachers so it is inevitable that schools have to limit their intake some way. Instead of trying to find the best way to do this the Minister should be increasing the places available. There are plenty of good teachers emigrating who could teach our children.
The panic is caused by the shortage. Take away the shortage and nobody has any reason to panic.

Government knew back in the early-mid 2000s about the baby boom. They were able to prepare for this. DUH one day these babies are going to have to go to school.

private

Interestingly portobello educate together are operating a pre enrolment first come first served system. I thought all the educate together were on lottery now.

lazygal

private wrote: »

Interestingly portobello educate together are operating a pre enrolment first come first served system. I thought all the educate together were on lottery now.

No we have pre enrolled both of ours in an et. I don't know of any with a lottery, all the ones I know of are first come first served.

ek54

While the first come first served policy operates, parents are always going to put their children's names down for as many schools as possible. I like the idea of sticking childrens names down maximum 1 year in advance. It seems fairer to me!

ShamoBuc

The problem would be that when the 1 yr deadline approaches, you would have a long queue outside schools on that day. Staggering the name taking is better I think.

Moonbeam

I think having to put their names down at birth is the worst possible solution,we put our eldest daughters name down in the local school at 14 months due to a house move and she did not get a place so I had 50 km of driving to do every day.
I think accepting names the year before is the only viable option currently.

byhookorbycrook

I don't think accepting names the year before works well either. Remember the school in Tralee where parents camped out overnight?

Moonbeam

One of the schools near here opens enrollments for about 2 months every year for the following Sept and it works well.

Once it is not 1st come 1st served then there should be no queues.

Toto Wolfcastle

I worked in a school (secondary, not primary) where applications were accepted about a year before. It wasn't first come, first served. There was a set criteria like most schools have. The problem was that if too many people fulfilled the last criteria, they gave the remaining places based on when the application was handed in. It was the only fair way really, and the parents would queue from 3 in the morning to make sure that they were top of the list if it came to it.