track champs

mark kiernan

hi folks are many of you aware that just last night cycling ireland made up a rule stopping male vets from riding the national track champs
just 72hrs before the event it means a very large number of riders are missing out 2 current national champions will not be allowed to defend their titles never mind half the field will be missing from most of the events
this move by them is breathtaking
there is presadence here as other national track champ events have already taken place this year with vets in it ie the team sprint pursuit and the omnium with current national pursuit champ hugh mulherne taking silver
in fact the first few rounds of the kiren have taken place with the concluding medal ride off due to take place on sunday with vets already in it
this is ageist and sexist as it only affects the men
i thought sport is suppose to b all inclusive according to the irish sports council well folks any ideas as how to proceed?

Junior

Now dude, lets be clear they didn't make up a rule, they just implemented a rule that's been there with a while.

mark kiernan

really? show us the min of the meeting last week track cycling .ie stated from next year you could ride either the vets nationals or the nationals from last night no vets allowed ?

nak

Vets aren't allowed to race senior nationals in other countries. Think the way it has been done is terrible and the rule should apply to both men and women if they have to enforce it. Had forgotten about TP etc, seriously unfair to do it last minute when people have planned their whole season around nationals.

Harrybelafonte

I'm beginning to wonder if the numbers who signed up for this year's Nats had something to do with it.

Though it can be argued that it should apply to the women too, that'd leave maybe four women in a vets scratch, no?

mark kiernan

allowed to do both in england and usa the british kerin champs was on last week check the results same in the usa as you say why men and not women dircrimation not allowed under sports council rules and cycling ireland id say

Squidgy Black

The sport is all inclusive, that's why they have the IVCA. You're not being excluded from riding track, you're just being told that all vets can only contest their own championships as opposed to the seniors. It is a double standard letting female vets ride in the female seniors alright.

Harrybelafonte

mark kiernan wrote: »

allowed to do both in england and usa the british kerin champs was on last week check the results same in the usa as you say why men and not women dircrimation not allowed under sports council rules and cycling ireland id say

I don't mean to be rude, but could you use full stops or something, your posts are difficult to understand.

I agree it's bad form to change the original decision, but can someone shed light on why it was changed? Has anyone made a direct complaint to Cycling Ireland, not much is going to change with it brought up here.

Not including the women in this ruling is pragmatic as far as I can see.

Beasty

CI rules state you can only ride 1 nationals in any year

In the Kierin and Team events there is only one national championship open to seniors and vets. This is the same in the UK - AFAIK there are no separate vets/Masters championships for these events

In the Sprint, Scratch, Pursuit and TT there are (this year for the first time) separate Senoir and Vets championships (although until yesterday it appeared the vets champs had been shelved)

I suspect the numbers signing up forced a re-think on running the vets championships (which was going to be redesignated an omnium event)

I can see 2 possible explanations for the different treatment of the women's events:

1. Taking the vets out may have reduced numbers in some events to a level that they could not run proper championships for
2. I suspect there will be no separate women's vets chanpionships (don't know if they will be allowed to race against the men though - possibly not if they race over the weekend)

The timing of this announcement is clearly very unfortunate, but I guess it's not always easy to get everything done to "professional" standards when the sport is pretty much reliant on unpaid volunteers to run it

mark kiernan

sorry about the spelling harry
under their own article rules. any new national champs must first be submitted to cycling ireland in october of last year
then it will be run as a demonstration event
then if everybody is happy they go ahead
up untill last night the vets track champs has always been a omniun event nothing else
now that has been dropped and a tt sprint pursuit and scratch has been just added just like that no meeting no discussion
the road ruling states that you can ride either the road nationals or the vet nationals ,just not both
as from today we dont get to choose
nevermind descrimate mens and women over 40
if they did this to the women there would be war

Harrybelafonte

Thaks Mark. I still disagree on regarding not changing the women's as descrimination though. I could be wrong, but I can only see four women signed up for Saturday that are vets (I could also be wrong, could be more or less), which I really don't see as enough to run a viable Nationals.

Thanks for clarification Beasty, I do feel it was the numbers signed up that changed their mind. Sprint has 30 entrants, don't think numbers were even close to this last year.

Is everyone over 40 automatically designated Veteran status? Or can you choose to remain a Senior?

Beasty

mark kiernan wrote: »

up untill last night the vets track champs has always been a omniun event nothing else

No it was not - up until last year there was a vets omnium championship. This year they got agreement to run a full vets championships in the same format as the Seniors

However there was a condition that 2 "test events" be run. The Track Commission had hoped the IVCA would run one of them but that never happened. Hnece a couple of weeks ago they redesinated the vets championships back to the old Omnium format, until last night ...

mark kiernan

timing beasty ?
72 hours before the event
i dont mind them changing thinks ,but there making it up as they go along
why let people enter for the events. if thats the case. train away then change it at the last min
there own rules state they give notice of this

Beasty

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Is everyone over 40 automatically designated Veteran status? Or can you choose to remain a Senior?

CI rules permit those over 40 to have "Senior" designated on their licence, but they must request this when their licence is taken out

I'm not sure if the "vets" cut-off for ladies is at 35 or 40 - if the former I could see at least half those signed up for the pursuit being ineligibile

And just to clarify - I declare no personal interest in any of this as I do pot qualify for either Seniors or Vets Championships ....

Beasty

mark kiernan wrote: »

timing beasty ?
72 hours before the event
i dont mind them changing thinks ,but there making it up as they go along
why let people enter for the events. if thats the case. train away then change it at the last min
there own rules state they give notice of this

I agree it's very unfortunate and I have no idea as to how this came up so late - they close entries 7 days ahead of the event and I can only imagine it had something to do with the numbers taking them by surprise

Beasty

Just checked - the cut-off for women is 40 also, which means there are probably not going to be more than a handful eligible active track racers if they were to run a separate women's vets championships

Beasty

See Page 103 of the CI technical regs where the National Track Championships were originally set out (the red bits show additions to last year) back in January

buffalo

Beasty wrote: »

I declare no personal interest in any of this as I do pot qualify for either Seniors or Vets Championships ....

Didn't realise you were a Junior rider Beasty.

Beasty

buffalo wrote: »

Didn't realise you were a Junior rider Beasty.

Very few of us get to ride the junior champs ...


... actually, better re-phrase that

mark kiernan

just wondering does this apply across the sport.
will robin seymor not be allowed to defend his mountain bike title for the 165th time or regain his cyclocross title this winter?

Beasty

You look at each discipline separately - CX is different from MTB, Road is different to BMX

In this case the "track championships" comprise TT, Pursuit, Sprint and Scratch - each one has a medal and jersey available. Kierin is a different discipline as are Team Pursuit, Team Sprint, Scratch, Sprint, Pursuit and TT - 4 of them have a vets championship and 3 don't.

However the problem arises because you have a licence marked "vet" and in this case there are vets championships you are eligible to ride for those 4 events. If there were separate CX vets championships Robin Seymour could only ride the one designated on his licence. You can race any vets championships - Road, Track, MTB, BMX or CX (if run) - you can ride the Seniors in any event where there are no separate vets nationals

nak

mark kiernan wrote: »

just wondering does this apply across the sport.
will robin seymor not be allowed to defend his mountain bike title for the 165th time or regain his cyclocross title this winter?

Robin opts to race as a senior, not a vet afaik. As said before, you can choose your category at the start of the year.

Beasty

Just checked and the CI rule is basically applying what the UCI rules specify - no rider can ride national championships in more than 1 category (categories being Junior, U23, Senior, Masters etc)

On this basis I cannot see how the women can be permitted to ride the Vets Championships if they participate in the Seniors

Vino Veritas

Mark Kiernan is an Elite National Champion on the Track , and he knows what he is talking about.

There was No Veteran Track Championships this year, just an Omnium like previous years.
This was briefly changed to a Masters type event, and then back again almost as quickly.
As of today, Nobody, Including Track Commission & Cycling Ireland is 100% sure in what format this event will now be held, and who will be allowed compete.

Irish Veteran riders have prepared for, and have been very successful in the Elite National Championships in the past few years. Many of these would not compete in the Omnium.

If the riders were told at the start of the season, many may have skipped the Veteran National Road Race in favor of all the events they are now forced to miss (With 3 Days Notice)

Homer1798

You can either ride as an elite or a vet but not both, depending on what is written on your licence. However shouldn't the elite national champion be the best in the country and not just the best under 40 rider?

morana

I am with Mark on this. If the women are allowed to do it so should the men. The lateness of the change after entries were accepted is unfortunate.

Beasty

Homer1798 wrote: »

You can either ride as an elite or a vet but not both, depending on what is written on your licence. However shouldn't the elite national champion be the best in the country and not just the best under 40 rider?

Only ever the best that turns up on the day...

The point is that under UCI rules you can only compete at national championship level in one category

Within CI that category is determined by the rider from any choices available based on his circumstances when he applies for your licence.

I appreciate the circumstances surrounding these particular championships have changed (a couple of times actually), but the underlying principle has been there consistently (just without relevance to track cycling "nationals" until now)

Beasty

morana wrote: »

I am with Mark on this. If the women are allowed to do it so should the men. The lateness of the change after entries were accepted is unfortunate.

I am not sure the women will be allowed to compete in the vets championships though - not seen any clarification but it would contravene UCI rules if they were permitted to and have ridden the nationals (any woman not riding the nationals may be allowed into the vets championships though)

Raam

nak wrote: »

Robin opts to race as a senior, not a vet afaik. As said before, you can choose your category at the start of the year.

Also, this year there was a separate vets race for CX.

fixie fox

However, this is progress for the older Vets / Masters riders: "..... will support the promotion of a separate Male Veteran Track Championship on 14/15th September with replicated events over distances along Masters lines.." - from http://www.trackcycling.ie/.

Harrybelafonte

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/riders-furious-and-fields-down-by-one-third-as-vets-excluded-from-national-track-champs/

So, this clarifies the issues somewhat, but I can't make out exactly where they went wrong, may need to read it again. Seeing Misters Kiernan, Howick, Whelan and Mulhearne and others not mentioned in the article stopped from racing is a major disappointment all around and i think the day's going to suffer for it from every point of view. That's a big chunk of the stronger, more experienced riders taken out.

petethedrummer

Between this and the world champs thread, cycling organisers certainly know how to complicate a simple sport.

Beasty

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/riders-furious-and-fields-down-by-one-third-as-vets-excluded-from-national-track-champs/

So, this clarifies the issues somewhat, but I can't make out exactly where they went wrong, may need to read it again. Seeing Misters Kiernan, Howick, Whelan and Mulhearne and others not mentioned in the article stopped from racing is a major disappointment all around and i think the day's going to suffer for it from every point of view. That's a big chunk of the stronger, more experienced riders taken out.

What I think went wrong was
1. They changed the format after some riders had already chosen their category
2. They never properly communicated the change. I recall a Board update mentioning it but that seems to have been taken down
3. CI imposed conditions that were not met so the track commission (incorrectly it seems) assumed the vets champs could not go ahead
4. CI never updated their calendar so anyone looking at that assumed there would be an omnium in the same format as last year. The trackcycling website calendar was updated though

Fundamentally it seems to be down to poor communication particularly on the part of CI and its infamous website...

morana

Beasty wrote: »

Fundamentally it seems to be down to poor communication particularly on the part of CI and its infamous website...

from CI never!!!

mark kiernan

thats it in a nutshell beasty
but who loses out the riders
poor communication yes as always
there website front page calander still has
omnuim vet champs on it

Harrybelafonte

mark kiernan wrote: »

thats it in a nutshell beasty
but who loses out the riders
poor communication yes as always
there website front page calander still has
omnuim vet champs on it

Is it?

Seriously, I'm sure a member of CI somewhere would be willing to keep their calendar updated and clearer.

Bjorn Turun

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I don't think people contributing to this discussion can really complain about bad communication when they do not appear to know how to use basic sentence construction and punctuation.

Beasty

Bjorn Turun wrote: »

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I don't think people contributing to this discussion can really complain about bad communication when they do not appear to know how to use basic sentence construction and punctuation.

You signed up to post that? If that's going to be the quality of your contributions to this forum don't bother posting again

Squidgy Black

Beasty wrote: »

You signed up to post that? If that's going to be the quality of your contributions to this forum don't bother posting again

Shhh Beasty, we wouldn't want to scare off Pat or he'll run back to Malaysia.

Vino Veritas

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Shhh Beasty, we wouldn't want to scare off Pat or he'll run back to Malaysia.

.... and yet most of the Vets would have supported Pat (in some format)...

anyway - Attacking an Elite Irish National Cycling Champion on his punctuation, anonymously...

RobFowl

Vino Veritas wrote: »

.... and yet most of the Vets would have supported Pat

I can name 3 who didn't

Harrybelafonte

Ugh, can we not start the McQuaid loop in here please.

Anyway, the champs are on today. Not sure what the atmosphere will be like after this debacle but good luck to all racing and hopefully we'll all have good day. PBs all around.

RobFowl

Lots of results tweeted by https://twitter.com/caroline_ie
with pics too

fat bloke

To counteract the discrimination charge, and maybe clarify:

there is no women's vets track champs.
That is why the women vets are allowed to ride the women's senior track champs.

There IS a mens vets track champs.
That is why the men vets are not allowed to ride the mens senior track champs.


I have been asked to post the above by someone who says that some of you should be aware of this!

fixie fox

This below is what's on the Cycling Ireland website - I was trying to make sense of the dates until I looked further up and I think it is last year's dates?

Senior National Track Championships - Sat 1st and Sun 2nd September
Closing Date - Midnight Wed 29th August
Email to trackcyclingireland@gmail.com
Name - Club - Event - UCI IRL number and 12 licence number or equivalent.
More details on www.trackcycling.ie

Vets Omnium National Track Championship - Sat 8th September
Closing Date - Midnight Wed 5th September
Email to trackcyclingireland@gmail.com
Name - Club - Event - UCI IRL number and 12??? licence number or equivalent.
More details on www.trackcycling.ie

trackcyclingireland.ie says the "Senior Veteran"Track Champs are on "Saturday 14th/15th September". Can someone clarify it that is Saturday and Sunday, or just Sat. 14th. I presume a 'Senior Veteran' is just a Veteran

fixie fox

fixie fox wrote: »

This below is what's on the Cycling Ireland website - I was trying to make sense of the dates until I looked further up and I think it is last year's dates?

Senior National Track Championships - Sat 1st and Sun 2nd September
Closing Date - Midnight Wed 29th August
Email to trackcyclingireland@gmail.com
Name - Club - Event - UCI IRL number and 12 licence number or equivalent.
More details on www.trackcycling.ie

Vets Omnium National Track Championship - Sat 8th September
Closing Date - Midnight Wed 5th September
Email to trackcyclingireland@gmail.com
Name - Club - Event - UCI IRL number and 12??? licence number or equivalent.
More details on www.trackcycling.ie

trackcyclingireland.ie says the "Senior Veteran"Track Champs are on "Saturday 14th/15th September". Can someone clarify it that is Saturday and Sunday, or just Sat. 14th. I presume a 'Senior Veteran' is just a Veteran

I just found a Calendar on the CI website now and it says there's a 'Vets Omnium' on Sat. 14th Sept. Maybe all this has been clarified back along the thread, but can we take it the the latest posting on trackingcyclingireland is the definitive one?

morana

fat bloke wrote: »

To counteract the discrimination charge, and maybe clarify:

there is no women's vets track champs.
That is why the women vets are allowed to ride the women's senior track champs.

There IS a mens vets track champs.
That is why the men vets are not allowed to ride the mens senior track champs.


I have been asked to post the above by someone who says that some of you should be aware of this!

Hmmm I dont know. that maybe CI's interpretation but I am not sure the equality commission would see it that way having sat thru a 4hr mediation session defending CI

fixie fox

morana wrote: »

Hmmm I dont know. that maybe CI's interpretation but I am not sure the equality commission would see it that way having sat thru a 4hr mediation session defending CI

I want equality for OLD GUYS. Where do I find this Commission?? (I'm only [half] joking - please don't go to the bother ....)

Beasty

A few more photos from today here

Squidgy Black

Surprised to see a few Brixton Cycles jerseys there and a Look Mum No Hands one too.

Harrybelafonte

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Surprised to see a few Brixton Cycles jerseys there and a Look Mum No Hands one too.

Lydia Boylan also competed last year.