Friendship trouble

LegacyUser · 27-08-2013 12:06pm #1

Hey,

I have a platonic friendship with a lad I work with. We are emotionally close, get on really well, have loads in common, tons of fun and basically have all the chemistry needed to cement a solid friendship. We've had our own ups and downs from the closeness but is generally just being overly dramatic and worrying as we are both in relationships. My fiance, has gotten over any initial wariness and takes an "as long as you're happy and he's being a good friend to you" attitude to this which I am really grateful for. My fiance is amazing, so supportive, I love him to death.

My friend however, has a LTR and his girlfriend is completely blind to our friendship, her jealousy & paranoia has gotten to the point of her being emotionally abusive, sulking & withdrawing, refusing to talk about it but making snide & humiliating comments infront of friends, getting drunk and having it all come out at public events.

Our friendship aside, she's insecure & seems to harbour a lot of resentment towards him. I picked up on this the first time I met her, red flags everywhere but I said nothing to him as he loves her and I support him and it's not my place. I wanted to like her for his sake and have us all get on.

My sibling died very suddenly and obviously I needed my friend for support but she had a problem with this. It made her "uncomfortable". I backed off. A week after his funeral she drunkenly verbally attacked us on a night out. I refused to be drawn in as didn't want to cause a scene and humiliate my friend more. Apparently the next day she was apologetic.. but that's how she plays it, she keeps it in, explodes, tests the waters and if he let's her walk all over him she sticks to her actions, if he condemns her, she gets all fearful & apologetic to cover her tracks. No real remorse; she's all about getting what she wants.

The following day in work he was broken & cut up. I was raging at him for allowing her to do that to me, for him not protecting me. I was pleading with him to see sense, what would he tell me to do if that was my fiance treating me as she treats him? He started crying. It broke my heart. I care deeply for him and I think he deserves better, I try to build his confidence, but he just feels so guilty about hurting her by hanging out with me that he let's her away with it.

I feel as though I have lost my friend. These past 6 months or so has just been me getting dragged into their drama and him appeasing her so ignoring me/letting me down. I am emotionally exhausted. He used to be there for me, and we hung out just playing pool or whatever but they live together now so he has cut way back on spending time with me. Understandable but still sucks. I am getting hurt because I feel he throws me under the bus and won't stand up for me/what he wants. He reckons he is and does try but I just feel as though he is. He will be super nice & lovely to me then again for while but then it's back to square one and I feel gullible for trusting him. I know it's a sh1t position for him to balance us both, but he says I keep ending up the loser. I am so frustrated that he's allowing her to hurt us both so much. He wants me as a friend. It's important to him, so I don't understand how it's still so fcuked up.

I am trying to walk away, for everyone's sake, but it is so hard because I really can't stand to see him in a relationship where he is treated so badly. I know it's up to HIM but it's like he's blind to it. Just like I was blind to seeing I needed to cut him out of my life for my own sanity, ironically. But I don't think I should give this friendship up as it's really special and we were very good for each other before it got so messy. I guess that's the hard part, how long can you wait around for it to get good again? Will I ever have my friend back? I miss him terribly.

You know, I feel toxic thinking negative things about her because that's not me. I amn't comfortable with back talk or judging. I do feel bad for her, but it's her own insecurities/ trust issues. Whatever of her being mean to me, fine, she thinks I am out to steal her boyfriend, but how she disregarded & disrespected my grief is crossing a line. How she's treating my friend is a red rag to a bull to me. I hate bullying.

Really at a loss here of what to do and it's tearing me up inside. As it stands I told him I need him to keep away from me, so haven't seen him in a month. Talked a bit about it all. Trying to cut him out. It hasn't made me any happier though. Or him. Maybe I am addicted to the drama? I keep going back to it. My fiance is so annoyed with him for hurting me that he refuses to have anything to do with him. I feel though, that it's me who is weak and keeps forgiving him, so it's my fault really, I have lost a lot of self respect.

Any advice?

heretochat · 27-08-2013 1:48pm

I am scratching my head here trying to think of what to say in response to your post.

One things strikes me though - why are you so upset about a lack of support from this male friend when you have a fiance that should be there to give you such support?

Also comes across that you are way too dependent on this guy for all your social interactions. Have you no other friends that you can socialise with, talk to etc.

Regardless of what you feel for this friend, you cannot get involved in his relationship with his girlfriend.

You seem to have a lot of issues going on what with your terrible bereavement etc. You need to deal with these yourself and rely on your fiance more also.

One final oddity struck me - you say you work with this guy but haven't seen him for a month?

ibarelycare · 27-08-2013 1:52pm

Something similar happened to me with a male friend I was very close with. He started going out with a really horrible girl. He would talk to me about their problems, about how she was treating him. She was jealous and possessive and manipulative. I tried to get to know her but she wasn't happy with me being friends with him at all (even though I had a boyfriend) and I was put in a really awkward position. I didn't like her, however I didn't want to lose my friend, so I had to remain as diplomatic as possible, and try not to say what I really thought of her. They were always breaking up and getting back together. The last time this happened (well the last time I know of) I told him I was delighted they had broken up because she was a c*nt and everyone thought it. Safe to say they got back together and that was pretty much the end of my friendship with him. He stopped contacting me after that. He'd still talk to me when I made the effort to get in touch but eventually I had to stop, because things were never the same. I deleted his number, deleted him off FB and haven't spoken to him in over a year. It still makes me sad because he was such a good friend and I know he deserves to be with someone far nicer.

As you said, it's his decision to make. I think trying to continue the friendship the way it was is going to be stressful and exhausting for everyone involved. As difficult as it is, I think the best thing you can do is take a step back from the situation and hope that he sees the light. I'm still holding out hope!

Merkin · 27-08-2013 2:01pm

bangingmyheadoffawall wrote: »

I was raging at him for allowing her to do that to me, for him not protecting me. I was pleading with him to see sense, what would he tell me to do if that was my fiance treating me as she treats him? He started crying. It broke my heart. I care deeply for him and I think he deserves better, I try to build his confidence, but he just feels so guilty about hurting her by hanging out with me that he let's her away with it.

I feel as though I have lost my friend. These past 6 months or so has just been me getting dragged into their drama and him appeasing her so ignoring me/letting me down. I am emotionally exhausted. He used to be there for me, and we hung out just playing pool or whatever but they live together now so he has cut way back on spending time with me. Understandable but still sucks. I am getting hurt because I feel he throws me under the bus and won't stand up for me/what he wants.

You say stand up for you and for what he wants. Are you sure the it's not for what YOU want? You hate that he's moving on don't you? When you are in a long term relationship (especially a serious one) your loyalty is to your partner. You obviously call them up on bad behaviour and it's nice if they get along with your friends but ultimately you are with your partner.

You seem to have a massive issue with his choice of girlfriend and seem genuinely amazed that you're not his first priority anymore. Friendships change and evolve and it's not so easy maintaining a very close relationship with a member of the opposite sex when in a serious relationship. One of my closest friends was a man who I knew for many years. Been through thick and thin together, such close friends and when I got with my OH and then married him this person was not at all happy for me. In fact he was furious and tried everything to dissuade me and that hurt me a lot - a real friend should be delighted for you. All my other friends are. It slowly changed our dynamic and we remain civil but it's different now.

Yes, this girl sounds like a weapon and sounds like she is consumed with jealousy over your dynamic with her boyfriend but he is a grown adult and is entitled to choose whom he wishes to conduct a relationship with and move in with. It sounds like he's serious about her and there is nothing you can do to change that. I'd butt out.

I would take a step back from this if I were you. You sound like you're a little too invested in it so I'd concentrate on your own relationship and other friendships and not spend so much time worrying about this other guy's relationship.

CarMe · 27-08-2013 4:58pm

Oh I dunno OP if I'm completely honest I think I'd be uncomfortable with a boyfriend being so close with someone so preoccupied with them. You've got your own partner, he should be your main support. I just your attitude to this friend a little odd.

December2012 · 27-08-2013 5:20pm

Firstly, in very sorry for the loss of your sibling.

But..... Why would you be relying on your friend and not your fiancé for support when your sibling died?

Who is more important to you? Your fiancé or your friend?

It should be your fiancé.

And he should value his girlfriend over you.

You could be having these difficulties even if your friend was female - you will naturally see less of friends as they progress their relationship to the next levels.

Big Bag of Chips · 27-08-2013 5:24pm

She's his gf. And I'm sorry to say, but I think in this instance gf trumps work colleague friend.

He has made his decision and has made it clear to you... He is choosing her. He has even said as much, but you're not listening.

You think she treats him horribly. But it would seem the times she argues with him are over you. So if you weren't a problem, then their relationship might be just like any other?

He is with her. You can't change that, no matter how much it upsets you to see him being treated badly. And to be honest, if he DID listen to you and finish with her, wouldn't that be just the proof she'd need to show she was right all along, and you were a threat to their relationship?

I think you need to accept that the dynamic of this friendship has changed. The reason it has changed is out of your control, he has changed it by becoming (and staying) involved with her.

To be honest, most male/female BFF relationships change and trail off as people get older and move into their own relationships.

You'll always be friends, but I think from now on it will be a different friendship.

Edit: You say that you are "grateful" that your fiance is ok with this friendship, which means that you would understand if he had a problem with it. It just so happens that he's ok with it.

It just so happens she's NOT ok with it... And that is ok too. It's up to him to choose how to deal with it, and he would rather keep his distance from you, in order to keep her happy.

moochers · 27-08-2013 6:37pm

Hey Op
First things first, I deeply sympathize with the death of your sibling, my own bro died suddenly a year ago and I know how hard that is.

With regards to your friendship I totally agree with the other posts. You have invested a lot into this friendship and relied on him for an awful lot of support. His gf may be irrational and jealous but a little part of me does understand her insecurities. You say it was strictly platonic but it also sounds like a very deep emotional relationship these relationships can often be as hurtful as a sexual one especially from the perspective of the partners involved. It is very healthy to have both male and female friends but too rely on one friendship so heavily for all your emotional support isn't. I don't know if the friendship can be salvaged but you do need to move on, widen your social circle and get the emotional support from your fiance.

Stavro Mueller · 27-08-2013 7:43pm

+1 to what the others have said about you being over-invested in this. I notice that he went ahead and moved in with her after that time he broke down and cried. Like it or not, his relationship is progressing and there isn't a thing you can or should do about it. She might be a horrible person, she could well be the wrong person for him but it's up to him to make this decision. You're running a real risk of getting your fingers burnt so you are better off taking a step back. If he wants to come to you for advice, then fair enough. Other than that, stay out of it.

LegacyUser · 27-08-2013 8:14pm

I really feel for you, I was in a similar situation with a male friend. Gf of male friend got very jealous and stopped talking to me was very cold. I don't know to this day whether he wanted more and I just didn't see it or what was going on really but it was a mess and I walked away as soon as I copped what was going on. I was devastated like yourself because it was (or at least I thought it was a good friendship). Looking back though I can see that they deserve each other, misery loves company. She's not the only one who is toxic your friend is too, if he can't set clear boundaries in his relationship with his partner and stand up for himself then he is quite the coward and not worthy of your friendship! You've done the right thing, you'll get over it with time.

LegacyUser · 27-08-2013 9:10pm

OP here

Thanks for the advice. Is good to get other perspectives. A lot of it I knew already (but didn't want to admit) and is why this was already quite complicated & I have tried to cut ties a few times before but it never works

Just a few things, about me wanting what's best for me & about him choosing her. Yea I guess it's quite self centred and I am being possessive. I am aware and I amn't proud of it. Though when you have loads of attention and then it's gone, it does sting a bit. Yet he says "You're my best friend, you mean the world to me and I wouldn't swap our friendship for anything" He tells me he wishes that she could accept it and we could be friends. He's keeping his distance now because I told him too and he doesnt want to cause me anymore hurt (supposedly). The thing is, I don't mind if he had the balls to come to me and say "Look, I choose X. Sorry our friendship didn't work out" but the stringing me along and saying he's working on it then revealing another explosion is what's the painful part here. I feel him letting me just say "enough is enough" is a cowardly way out and I don't respect that. He promises everything to everyone, trying to please everyone means no one is pleased.

He actually moved in with her a year ago. It kinda started to go downhill after a few months. I suspected there would be teething problems from their previous dynamic, but was still supportive and have been of his relationship. Until I got dragged in and she was bad mouthing me & crossed the line over my brother. I know her seeing the extent of our friendship would have riled her more as afaik, he did try to hide it (unbeknownst to me) so that didn't help.

I know we do rely on each other too much. There is a weird codependency and it was another reason I wanted out. But also what makes it quite difficult. Initially during my grieving, I didn't want my fiance to see me. I was manic. It would have crushed him. He was shell shocked over it already and grieving too, he lost his future brother in law afterall. I just wanted to be strong for him. I didn't want many of my other friends to see me as I was, but this friend gets me and is non judgmental (I was very angry) and the type that wouldn't walk on eggshells around me, still treat me normally and crack jokes. As for the support, hmmm... he saw me once 5 days after the death. For an hour. Then after she said her bit I didn't even want to ask him for a shoulder to cry on.

But yea, anyways, you guys are pretty much right and I guess I didn't want it to be true. I feel disillusioned. I am fiercely loyal and protective. My friends are my family. I really value goodness & kindness and equality above everything else. Finding out the truth about a person hurts. Still deep down I know he was very good to me, so am conflicted. I just think I was treated pretty unfairly in it all and that's the brain worm that keeps niggling at me. My head KNOWS what's logical and that everything's grey but my heart is saying "No! That's not fair!" Ah, such is life. But yea was totally my fault, I was playing with fire and I doubted all my own instincts. I am mad at myself.

Any advice on where to go from here? I really over think and over analyse. Just get over it, keep my distance? Can't avoid him forever... Try and work through it and stop taking it so personally?

CarMe · 27-08-2013 10:21pm

Would you consider putting all this energy into your relationship maybe? That should take your mind off it and is probably where your efforts should be focused anyway?

December2012 · 27-08-2013 10:21pm

My advice to you is to start to communicate more with your fiancé. Talk to him about your brother, about your grief, about how you feel.

Rely on him, because this is one of those "for worse" parts of life that your wedding vows are about.

Your perception on things is wrong right now (I think), so stop thinking about your friend and what he has or has not done - he has still been a good friend to you.

Just try and get your own head straight but stop relying on your friend. Maybe some bereavement counselling would help instead.

Big Bag of Chips · 27-08-2013 10:22pm

Don't be too hard on him. You are angry at him for promising you things, and then letting you down....

But then you admit that your expectations of him were probably a bit unfair anyway.

He's obviously a nice guy. If he wasn't you wouldn't be so upset about losing him as a friend. And part of being a nice guy is not wanting to hurt or upset people.

So he says one thing to you, and at the time he genuinely means it, but then even with the best intention in the world, he doesn't follow through.

It doesn't make him a "bad" lad.. it just means, as you say yourself, he's trying to please everyone, but is actually not pleasing anyone.

To be honest, I think you are being quite unfair to him. He is stuck in the middle of 2 women.. and in this circumstance it's up to YOU to back off, not his gf.

I understand why you're upset. But I feel sorry for him stuck in the middle!

How you deal with it now.... Remember that behind it all, he's s nice fella... And that is a huge part of his problem!

Stavro Mueller · 27-08-2013 10:32pm

bangingmyhead wrote: »

Just a few things, about me wanting what's best for me & about him choosing her. Yea I guess it's quite self centred and I am being possessive. I am aware and I amn't proud of it. Though when you have loads of attention and then it's gone, it does sting a bit.

This jumped out at me. Why are you so dependent on this guy. I understand that you're posting in this thread from the perspective of your friend but your fiancé sounds like he's very much in the shadows. Is attention from your fiancé not enough for you?

Yet he says "You're my best friend, you mean the world to me and I wouldn't swap our friendship for anything" He tells me he wishes that she could accept it and we could be friends. He's keeping his distance now because I told him too and he doesn't want to cause me any more hurt (supposedly).

He's naive or talking through his hat if he thinks this is what's going to happen. His girlfriend wants you out of the picture, end of. Leaving aside what sort of person she is, I'm sure a lot of girlfriends would be uneasy with their boyfriends having such an intense close friendship with another woman.

He's now keeping his distance - perhaps your problem has been solved for you?

The thing is, I don't mind if he had the balls to come to me and say "Look, I choose X. Sorry our friendship didn't work out" but the stringing me along and saying he's working on it then revealing another explosion is what's the painful part here. I feel him letting me just say "enough is enough" is a cowardly way out and I don't respect that. He promises everything to everyone, trying to please everyone means no one is pleased.

In my experience, most friendships either end with a massive bust-up or they fizzle out. Expecting him to come along and make a declaration like this sounds like something out of a textbook...

For what it's worth, I think this guy is caught in the middle and floundering a bit. It's an impossible position for him.

I know we do rely on each other too much. There is a weird codependency..

Maybe it's for the best that the wheels have come off this somewhat. Why are you so hooked on this guy and not the man you supposedly love and want to spend the rest of your life with?

Initially during my grieving, I didn't want my fiancé to see me. I was manic. It would have crushed him. He was shell shocked over it already and grieving too, he lost his future brother in law afterall. I just wanted to be strong for him.

While this is understandable, it's not a great template for the rest of your life together, is it? How are you going to cope with other setbacks you may encounter? You need to ask yourself why you felt you couldn't turn to him?

I didn't want many of my other friends to see me as I was, but this friend gets me and is non judgmental (I was very angry) and the type that wouldn't walk on eggshells around me, still treat me normally and crack jokes. As for the support, hmmm... he saw me once 5 days after the death. For an hour. Then after she said her bit I didn't even want to ask him for a shoulder to cry on.

Would I be going out on a limb here to say he filled the void your fiancé should've been filling? When it comes down to it, he's a friend but he's taken. His priorities lie with his girlfriend.

But yea, anyways, you guys are pretty much right and I guess I didn't want it to be true. I feel disillusioned. I am fiercely loyal and protective. My friends are my family. I really value goodness & kindness and equality above everything else. Finding out the truth about a person hurts. Still deep down I know he was very good to me, so am conflicted. I just think I was treated pretty unfairly in it all and that's the brain worm that keeps niggling at me. My head KNOWS what's logical and that everything's grey but my heart is saying "No! That's not fair!" Ah, such is life. But yea was totally my fault, I was playing with fire and I doubted all my own instincts. I am mad at myself.

To be honest I can't see what exactly he did that was so terrible. As people have pointed out already, the dynamic of friendships changes when people get into relationships. This guy is living with his girlfriend in a serious committed relationship. It's his girlfriend who's his priority now, not you. You've been bumped down the hierarchy if you like. He still likes you as a friend but you're never going to have the same intense friendship you had before. He's caught horribly in the middle and unfortunately for you, he's always going to side with his girlfriend.

Big Bag of Chips · 27-08-2013 10:45pm

Just another point, OP. It's probably best that this friendship has come to an end now, because in my opinion, it was quite an unhealthy, inappropriate friendship anyway. And not because you are female and he is male.

I have a best friend of 20 years. We are very close, have been through births, marriages, deaths and miscarriages with each other..

But our friendship isn't anywhere as intense or as dependent as yours seems to be.

It was not a healthy relationship.. you even said yourself that there was a "weird codependency" between you. To be honest, I can totally understand why his gf has a problem with you... And I'm surprised your fiance is so ok with it!

I'd expect my husband to be a bit pissed off with me if I was so dependent on my (female) friend, and to step in and tell me it's a bit of a strange relationship.

heretochat · 28-08-2013 8:33am

The most striking thing from this thread is the apparent absence of the OP's fiance from the whole dynamic.

He should have been her support... she turned elsewhere... are the reasons for this a worry? For me they could be..

OP says she misses the attention her male friend gave her... Does her fiance not give her any attention..

As others have said I think more effort and concentration needs to be put into what the OP has (a fiance), rather than pining for a lad who has moved on with his own life.

Merkin · 28-08-2013 9:12am

It sounds to me like you are actually in love with your friend OP.

The fact that you shut your own fiance out in the wake of a bereavement and then crave the attention of this man (and the ensuing fury over his choice of partner) makes me think that there is a lot more to this than even you may care to acknowledge of realise.

Time to dig deep and have an honest look at whether this guy means more to you than just being a friend. You then in turn might like to look at the relationship you have with your fiance. Sounds like he has been a saint in all of this.

Defiler Of The Coffin · 28-08-2013 7:00pm

I agree with the above post OP, it seems to me that you have feelings for this guy, deep ones at that! Lines such as "stringing me along", "playing with fire", "weird codependency" and the fact that your friend "gets you" sounds like language you would use to describe a romantic relationship! It's possible your friend's GF is picking up on this as well, it's no wonder she doesn't want you near him! You do seem far too invested in this and it may be better for everyone involved if you accept the way things are now and focus on your own relationship?

LegacyUser · 28-08-2013 8:07pm

Hi,

You guys are being pretty harsh. My relationship is awesome. My fiance is so supportive and we communicate about everything. I am completey honest with him. We're really open, and also aren't wrapped up in each other. I wouldn't expect him to be the be all & end all of my life, and vice versa. We maintain a healthy independence & he woudn't tell me what to do and I wouldn't tell him what to do.

It was him though that pointed out initially that my friend was bad for me because I was getting let down constantly. I wasn't even noticing things but it was a build up of lots of things that I let slide, then he was like "Eh your friend let you down again. He breaks plans at the last minute when his girlfriend clicks her fingers. Where was he when your brother died? Why didn't he do X for you like he said? He is a terrible friend to you. Why do you think he's a good one?!"

But I make allowances all the time. Without going into it, my friend has done some ****ty things to me (many lately) and this really pisses off my fiance because he knows how loyal & caring I am and want to see the good in people. He thinks I should be treated better & appreciated/ not take advantage of. He wouldn't expect me to ever fcuk over a friend for him. So am starting to actually see it now. I guess we are both just less self serving & are people of our word. The "fury over his choice of girlfriend" is more of a shock & disappointment at how the fcuk can you be going out with someone who treated you/your friend so despicably. Just a wow... I would be embarrased if my fiance did that. He would not be my fiance for much longer I can tell you!

No, not in love with my friend, nor he with me. We know how we feel about each other, in that it is (was) a very unusual connection and lots of caring/love, but a really deep platonic love. Turk & JD in Scrubs way. It was very confusing/ worrying initially for us both being so close to someone & the friendship intensity so we had to examine all that & talked about it, but that was a couple of years ago. So I can see the reasoning behind the conclusions drawn here. It is an unusual situation. The whole novelty of the initally delightful friendship fun & games is missing lately, which is what I wanted back & hoped would get back. As for his girlfriend, I dunno, she has only met me a couple of times. She hated the idea of me from the start, maybe he was talking about me a lot or something and it wound her up. I dunno.

It's not even mad about the friendship evolving because I obviously knew it would drift apart naturally, when I move away to new house in the new year, when we both settle down, one/both of us change jobs. Just annoying that it ended this way, which seems unnatural because it's one person calling the shots for everything, and like I said, I just like fairness.

Anyways, I amn't so worked up about it anymore - gave it a lot of thought last night & soundboarded off my fiance. Didn't want to even repost because I don't want to give it more thought because that's the problem in the first place & I just end up thinking myself into knots. I suppose now gotta be polite at work, avoid getting drawn into it and one day we can maybe chat again or whatever.

Thanks for the advice though, gave me a lot of food for thought & the ridiculousness of it all. Am feeling a bit better/calmer about it. I suppose I had to actually look at it for what it was and not what it represented to me (morally etc.)

Mods can lock thread now please.

Friendship trouble

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